Help me decide which AFFORDABLE knife to buy please!

ocnLogan said:
So, steel type doesn't really determine sharpness (not in the way you're likely thinking anyway). Think of it like this. just because two car engines are made out of the same steel, do they perform the same? What about two different CPU's that are both made out of the same kind of Silicon?

Steel is just one factor in "sharpness".

Here is an attempt at a short explanation.

Steel used helps determine what edge angles (geometry) the knifes blade/edge can support. A better steel can allow for the angles to be "sharper" (more acute) and/or keep the edge longer. The steel also determines other attributes of the blade (how hard it is to sharpen, if it is stainless or carbon steel, and even what type of use the knife is for).

So, in terms of what makes something sharp, its actually geometry (the actual angle of the edge), and how refined the edge is (from your own sharpening). The steel just helps keep that sharp edge (some crappy steels could get very sharp, but the steel is so weak it wouldn't support that acute edge angle, and it would get dull immediately, whereas a nicer steel may be able to keep that same sharp edge for a month).

Does that make any sense?
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awesome thanks, correct me if i'm wrong then, so for example the Ganzo g704 and the Sanrenmu gb-704 both have blades made from 8cr13mov steel. This means they might not come out of the box as sharp as another, but they can both my sharpened to the exact same sharpness? So technically you could buy both these knives and get them to their optimum angle which will be the same sharpness?

I used sharpness" a lot lol I hope that's readable ;)
 
Kozified said:
awesome thanks, correct me if i'm wrong then, so for example the Ganzo g704 and the Sanrenmu gb-704 both have blades made from 8cr13mov steel. This means they might not come out of the box as sharp as another, but they can both my sharpened to the exact same sharpness? So technically you could buy both these knives and get them to their optimum angle which will be the same sharpness?

I used sharpness" a lot lol I hope that's readable ;)
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Heat treat makes a difference with that steel a lot. I've used it at 54-56HRC and it's just a horrible experience but it gets back to super sharp real fast, a trade off, but edge life is too short. In the 56-58 range, which is the range the knives you are looking at are in, is a decent heat treat, edge will last long enough to get through some work. At 58-60 HRC, my preferred hardness for that steel it lasts much longer without chipping, breaking or cracking. Spyderco does that steel just over 60 HRC and and it becomes brittle, chippy and will chip out fast and be as much of a turd as the same steel (8cr13mov) at the lower 54-56HRC but will take more time to fix.
 
For your price range I would just say go with an Ontario Rat 2. it had good blade, size, quality, shape, and will last forever if you don't abuse it. Great for a first knife I think they are about $20-$27
 
what country are you in? If you're in Britain you cant carry locking knives only slip joints

Kozified said:
Anyone have any opinions? I am looking to buy a knife for just average use, as it's my first knife i'm not willing to spend loads of £££ and looking for a fairly affordable one. I have rounded up 3 knives in which I am interested to buy, but the question is which one..

1.) Sanrenmu GB-704
2.) Enlan EL-02B
3.) Ganzo G704

If anyone has any experience with any of these knives please put you're opinions forward and help me decide which one to get!

SORRY IF THIS IS IN THE WRONG PLACE, I'VE NEVER USED A FORUM BEFORE AND I'M REALLY CONFUSED.
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Kozified said:
awesome thanks, correct me if i'm wrong then, so for example the Ganzo g704 and the Sanrenmu gb-704 both have blades made from 8cr13mov steel. This means they might not come out of the box as sharp as another, but they can both my sharpened to the exact same sharpness? So technically you could buy both these knives and get them to their optimum angle which will be the same sharpness?

I used sharpness" a lot lol I hope that's readable ;)
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Well "kind of".

Sorry, there are just a lot of layers to all of this. Here is another attempt at something semi-complex, in a paragraph or two.

Another facet to all of this is heat treatment. Any steel can be anywhere from really soft (low RC rating), to really hard (high RC rating). Any given steel will be much tougher at low hardness (will bend instead of break... like a kitchen spoon) but will have horrific edge retention. That same steel at high hardness will have more edge retention (wear resistance) but will be VERY brittle (almost to the point where it breaks when you drop it). There are generally "sweet spots" for each steel in terms of hardness.

The thing is that heat treatment can be somewhat tricky. This is one reason why many people prefer to buy from companies that are more established, as their heat treatment is more likely to be consistent, simply because they have the history and expertise in that type of steel.

And, this is ignoring other factors like, total blade dimensions, grinds, etc.

But "yes". Assuming that the steel is the same, blade dimensions are similar, heat treatment was good, and edge angles are the same, yes, they should be just as sharp as each other, and they should hold that edge for about the same amount of time.
 
emmknives said:
what country are you in?
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He is in the UK.

To chime in on customs and shipping from the states, if the UK is similar to Germany, you shouldn't have any problems, you just have to pay VAT tax. There is a really good YouTuber in the UK who reviews knives. From what I've gathered from him, it is legal to own most any of these knives, just not legal to carry them in public. So, if the OP is looking for an EDC of some kind it would be wise to follow local laws, especially if under age.
 
ocnLogan said:
Well "kind of".

Sorry, there are just a lot of layers to all of this. Here is another attempt at something semi-complex, in a paragraph or two.

Another facet to all of this is heat treatment. Any steel can be anywhere from really soft (low RC rating), to really hard (high RC rating). Any given steel will be much tougher at low hardness (will bend instead of break... like a kitchen spoon) but will have horrific edge retention. That same steel at high hardness will have more edge retention (wear resistance) but will be VERY brittle (almost to the point where it breaks when you drop it). There are generally "sweet spots" for each steel in terms of hardness.

The thing is that heat treatment can be somewhat tricky. This is one reason why many people prefer to buy from companies that are more established, as their heat treatment is more likely to be consistent, simply because they have the history and expertise in that type of steel.

And, this is ignoring other factors like, total blade dimensions, grinds, etc.

But "yes". Assuming that the steel is the same, blade dimensions are similar, heat treatment was good, and edge angles are the same, yes, they should be just as sharp as each other, and they should hold that edge for about the same amount of time.
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sweet thanks that makes a lot of sense, how do you find out how hard or soft the steel has been treated? would that just be further research into the knife I want or is it in the steel name or something? sorry for all these questions i'm sure i'm driving you mad lol!
 
emmknives said:
what country are you in? If you're in Britain you cant carry locking knives only slip joints
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Yeah when making this post I wasn't really sure what was the purpose for my knife, hope you guys (being knife enthusiasts) don't frown upon me when I say this but even though the knife will be kept at home majority of the time, I am also considering taking it to the woods and such. I understand that could be risky but it won't be used for anything reckless or silly, just for things like camping and that. The woods is very close to my house to it shouldn't be an issue. I really hope you guys don't think i'm stupid or disrespectful.. :confused:

I'm currently underage to legally carry a knife anyway so atm i'll be breaking the law regardless whether it's a slipjoint and doesn't lock. :)
 
Seneca18 said:
He is in the UK.

To chime in on customs and shipping from the states, if the UK is similar to Germany, you shouldn't have any problems, you just have to pay VAT tax. There is a really good YouTuber in the UK who reviews knives. From what I've gathered from him, it is legal to own most any of these knives, just not legal to carry them in public. So, if the OP is looking for an EDC of some kind it would be wise to follow local laws, especially if under age.
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Yeah let's just say i'm going to be keeping at home at all times, because regardless whether I get a knife with a 3inch blade / smaller and with all the rules that apply to the UK law, it will still be illegal for me to EDC it as i'm underage :(
 
Kozified said:
sweet thanks that makes a lot of sense, how do you find out how hard or soft the steel has been treated? would that just be further research into the knife I want or is it in the steel name or something? sorry for all these questions i'm sure i'm driving you mad lol!
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The hardness is listed as an "RC" (rockwell hardness) number. It might not always be on the sellers website, but it should be on the manufactures site for the knife you're interested in.

The Ontario RAT 1 is listed as having the range of 57-59rc, while the utilitac II is listed as having 56-58rc. The range means that the knives should fall into that range if it was individually tested (which at the factory they are not, they are done in huge batches, so the range is listed to give some room for variance/error).

So, if you're looking for an outdoors/around the house carry type of knife, any of the ones we're talking about should do fine (and be legal). And for the record, I am NOT recommending that you carry it around if you are underage/illegal. Its just not worth the risk.

And personally, I'd be looking for a knife that would be legal when I was 18. I don't think a law enforcement officer would be too happy with the explanation that "well, any knife was going to be illegal for me right now, so I went with one that would be illegal for an adult anyway".

And finally. If you're looking for a knife for outdoors, I'd actually say look into Moras (not sure on legality of fixed blades while in the woods, you'll have to check), and a SAK Farmer.

Good luck making a decision :).
 
ocnLogan said:
The hardness is listed as an "RC" (rockwell hardness) number. It might not always be on the sellers website, but it should be on the manufactures site for the knife you're interested in.

The Ontario RAT 1 is listed as having the range of 57-59rc, while the utilitac II is listed as having 56-58rc. The range means that the knives should fall into that range if it was individually tested (which at the factory they are not, they are done in huge batches, so the range is listed to give some room for variance/error).

So, if you're looking for an outdoors/around the house carry type of knife, any of the ones we're talking about should do fine (and be legal). And for the record, I am NOT recommending that you carry it around if you are underage/illegal. Its just not worth the risk.

And personally, I'd be looking for a knife that would be legal when I was 18. I don't think a law enforcement officer would be too happy with the explanation that "well, any knife was going to be illegal for me right now, so I went with one that would be illegal for an adult anyway".

And finally. If you're looking for a knife for outdoors, I'd actually say look into Moras (not sure on legality of fixed blades while in the woods, you'll have to check), and a SAK Farmer.

Good luck making a decision :).
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Pretty sure fixed blades are illegal here but I may be wrong, and I totally understand what you're saying man don't get me wrong. Let's just scrap what I said about using it in public and sticking to indoor / garden use for making campfire's etc :)

Now it's just time to find one for the right price, thanks for your help. The Ontario's seem to be great knives so it's between the Utilitac 2, Rat 1 and the Rat 2 :) :) :)
 
Monofletch said:
My favorite inexpensive knife is the Byrd Cara Cara 2. Great knife for about $20
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looks nice dude but I think the Ontario's have really appealed to me, either the Utilitac 2, RAT 1 or RAT 2 (that's if I can find for the right price here)
 
Kozified said:
Yeah let's just say i'm going to be keeping at home at all times, because regardless whether I get a knife with a 3inch blade / smaller and with all the rules that apply to the UK law, it will still be illegal for me to EDC it as i'm underage :(
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Are your parents OK with you buying a knife?
 
This is going to sound a little rude, but if $40 bucks is a budget buster for you then you really shouldn't be buying a knife at all.

However, I would personally recommend a kershaw skyline or a spyderco tenacious over an ontario rat 1. I have bought all three recently and the rat 1 is in third place, in my opinion. It is a good quality knife, I really have no complaints aside from the fact that it is a tad thick to carry, it is heavier than the other two, and you don't get that much more blade for the trouble. The skyline is my personal preference. For me the rat 1 will be a backup in my hunting pack or camping pack.
 
Opinions are definitely going to vary. I've had all three and my order of preference is reversed. Lol. The tenacious is a good proxy for the more expensive vg10 line of Spydercos though and it's a bigger beefier knife. All three steels are more or less in the same class. Skyline might be the funnest knife of the three for sure. But the Rat is more pocket able and has more handle to grip to as a work knife vs the Skyline which is better as a regular edc. I would take the Byrd Cara Cara 2 over all three especially the chisel ground version which is a nasty cutter. There's just a lot of good choices these days for sure.
 
Yeah, what these guys said...

So much more goes into even just the steel, then just the steel, if that makes sense...

Think of it like this. Your grsndmomma's best cake, the one that's to die for, everybody loves it, she learned how to make it from her grandmomma and you can't wait till she makes it again...

If she gives her exact recipe to say, your wife, word for word, and your wife makes that same cake, same ingredients, what are the chances it turns out just as good as grandma's? It might be good, shoot, it might be just as good, or, it could be dry, maybe those same ingredients came from different brands that are inferior, maybe it's over cooked, under cooked, maybe the oven was dirty, or the water is different... See what I mean. Steel is similar, you have your ingredients, and a recipe, but actual processing, care, procedures, facilities, equipment, can all play a role in the end process. Maybe it's over cooked, maybe it's undercooked, with most standard steels thete is an upper and lower limit for many of the ingredients so maybe one factory looks to pinch pennies and shoots for the lower baseline numbers just to qualify, whereas a different factory cares more about their product and reputation and they shoot for the upper limits... They both pass testing and stamp as the same steel. Doesn't seem like a huge difference, but in the world of steel, most changes come in less then 1% increments from one steel to the next, It makes a difference... Then heat is a totally different beast...
 
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