Help me get caught up.

My understanding is

1) Heat treatment is primarily a "hardness/strength/etc" process;
2) Heat treated metal is often more rust resistant than the same metal which has not been heat treated.

But I will defer to what the experts here have told you.
Shockingly I have to agree with mo, at least when it comes to 3v. Nathan has said that his optimized 3v (delta) has improved corrosion resistance. I've got both his regular 3v and delta 3v from cpk and neither has had any issues with corrosion. I've had 3v from brkt and it would develope slight patina with out use. The a2 I had from brkt would out right rust just sitting. Given their track record, who knows what brkt is putting out, steel or heat treat wise. It's nice to deal with makers you can trust (Chinese d2 in budget knives I do not, same with brkt on anything).
 
So I’ve recently revisited the knife hobby after a five and a half year hiatus. Seems like a lot has changed. I still remember the days of XM-18s being $800 minimum so I’d go to bladehq and buy a Strider, and now it’s the other way around! Have one of those on the way, with a CRK large Inkosi micarta planned to replace the large classic micarta I never should have traded. So what else is new and what’s changed?
I suppose it was available in your day, but, M4 steel . . . more available in various sprint runs and "custom" knife builds on the big knife manufacturer's sites.
Also the quality of some of the old stand bys tending to go down. I hate to admit it but I just bought a Kershaw cheepy (CQC 4XL Kershaw-Emerson (6055)), I plan to use it in a major building gutting and rebuild of the business I work at, as kind of a throw away hard use knife.
. . . problem is . . .
the dambed thing is excellent ! Even beautiful !
I just put ~$170 into a sprint run knife and by comparison as far as fit and finish there are some highly questionable aesthetic issues on that one and the ~$35 Chinese Kershaw makes that other knife look silly.

Yes I want to try a real Emerson someday but this sucker is just going to get trashed.
If I can bring myself to use it. I mean the blade finish has three different textures (longitudinal main grind, stone washed hollow grind area and the sharpening bevel even looks symetrical and wide enough to be a design element) just for looks and they nailed it !

I've been looking at the spine area of my $170 Sprint run and each time thinking :
seriously ?
THAT is where you stopped and thought "Good enough" ?
The Kershaw is not only finish ground in the same area but nicely chamfered and I would even call it facetted.
. . . I'm just saying.
 
Shockingly I have to agree with mo, at least when it comes to 3v. Nathan has said that his optimized 3v (delta) has improved corrosion resistance. I've got both his regular 3v and delta 3v from cpk and neither has had any issues with corrosion. I've had 3v from brkt and it would develope slight patina with out use. The a2 I had from brkt would out right rust just sitting. Given their track record, who knows what brkt is putting out, steel or heat treat wise. It's nice to deal with makers you can trust (Chinese d2 in budget knives I do not, same with brkt on anything).

Like I said, I'm going to defer to the experts here.

Though like you, BRKT's metallurgical track record is sketchy.

Very similarly, I wouldn't trust budget Chinese D2 because I wouldn't trust that it IS D2. I would assume that it rusts becuase its just not D2 way before I would assume that it IS D2 and that their heat treat is the thing making it rust.
 
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Recently the accusation has been that some Chinese D2 is 8Cr13MoV which we would expect to have superior corrosion resistance. Maybe the ones that rust are the authentic ones. ;)
 
Recipes? What do you mean?
A recipe is basically what temp your going to bring the steel too, how long your going to hold it and when to quench it and temper it.

Because d2 has so many variations of it with different composition of it, this recipe can be different for each version of d2 that there is. If a company has steel blanks laying around that just says d2 on them and not specifically crucible d2 or bohler d2 then the same recipe isn't universal between them for the expected result.
If a company gets only bohler d2 which is the case with larger well known Chinese manufacturers this is less of a problem as long as it doesn't get mixed up.
Some d2 varies in Vanadium amounts which will throw off the recipe for example.

Here's the bohler k110 d2 variant used alot.
https://www.bohler-edelstahl.com/en/K110.php
You can download the pdf that shows the standard recipes used for this steel.

With that said, those recipes are for die presses and various other markets and not specifically for knives and can be altered by the company doing the heat treatment. This is often the case... Benchmade, zt and spyderco have there own recipes they follow that may revolve around that base recipe but will change based on there own research and testing of there knives and the steels they use.

A custom maker can spend more time than a mass manufacturing company, hence why most customs have a better heat treatment, for example Phil Wilson, Carrothers, etc.

I'll post some quotes from Carrothers on d2 when I get some time to gather them. He goes more in depth on this topic.

Edit:
Rather than quote a whole lot, just check out the threads from @Nathan the Machinist on d2
https://www.bladeforums.com/search/21194123/?q=D2&o=date&c[user][0]=193594

Though here's one from the archive
http://xf.bladeforums.com/threads/any-experience-with-nathans-d2.1470902/#post-16929136
I probably have more experience with my D2 than anybody, I have them around the shop, my own skinning knife, and my steak knife. I use it all the time, it's probably my favorite steel and it has been running circles around and handing out spankings to the stainless super steels for years.

D2 is probably my favorite steel and I do a very good job with it. My heat treat for it has developed over the years and I feel it represents the best in the industry. I've been very open with other makers about what I'm doing with it and my techniques for it are now widely adopted to the point I see new makers talking about the process and unaware where it came from.

Complex steels like D2 usually have a basic "built in" grain size that results from their alloy and its reaction to an anneal. By default D2 is usually around 12-13 intercept grain size which is relatively fine grain.

Pre-quenching in D2, M2 and other complex steels is a grain refinement step that violates the "only one austenitizing per anneal" rule for these steels meant to avoid the extreme grain growth they're prone to on a second heat which creates a large fish scale style fracture. When done improperly it can have no effect or can lead to intercept grain size as low as 1 (extremely coarse).

Prequenching, when done properly, can refine the grain upwards of 17 or more, which is a very fine grain condition. This is based on research by Teledyne VASCO.

Before going further, let me state that grain refinement to this level serves no purpose in-of-itself and very fine grain, beyond a certain point, doesn't make a better knife. This is a widely misunderstood concept among makers and knife nuts. That's not what this is about.

There are a couple steps about pre-quenching I don't recommend to other makers because they have to be adjusted for each heat batch because the variations in alloy content and material condition effect the heat treat response and can lead to problems if done improperly. This is one reason I don't use D2 much any more, because every single batch needs special attention to be fully optimized. This is particularly true going from one manufacturer to another, because D2 is like hotdogs, they can all put different ingredients into it, and a .8 vanadium will react differently than a 1.2. But, when the time and temp is dialed in it refines the grain (which is not a bad thing) and puts carbon into solution, reducing the soak time and temp for the second heat which I believe may be very significant in minimizing naturally occurring structures that play hell with edge stability such as RA that converts in temper rather than during the quench.

The end result of a fully optimized D2 is a durable knife with outstanding edge retention, good corrosion resistance, and that toothy D2 edge that just keeps cutting. While not as durable as 3V, it's more durable than most, and it just keeps cutting and cutting.

Sometimes D2 can be somewhat brittle, but our final cut testing yesterday of a knife from this batch had a thin D2 knife at 18 DPS at HRC 63 cutting some 4D nails without chipping.

We're using Crucible D2 for this batch, but not their CPM version. This was not to save cost (less than $2 difference per blade) but to avoid the small rounded carbides that fall free from the edge. It's a good process to promote toughness, but it spoils one of the best properties of D2 in a knife, so we use a conventional melt.

If you'll try it, I promise you'll like it.
 
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Like I said, I'm going to defer to the experts here.

Though like you, BRKT's metallurgical track record is sketchy.

Very similarly, I wouldn't trust budget Chinese D2 because I wouldn't trust that it IS D2. I would assume that it rusts becuase its just not D2 way before I would assume that it IS D2 and that their heat treat is the thing making it rust.
Agreed on the d2. I doubt it's a heat treat issue. It isn't d2.
 
Shockingly I have to agree with mo, at least when it comes to 3v. Nathan has said that his optimized 3v (delta) has improved corrosion resistance. I've got both his regular 3v and delta 3v from cpk and neither has had any issues with corrosion. I've had 3v from brkt and it would develope slight patina with out use. The a2 I had from brkt would out right rust just sitting. Given their track record, who knows what brkt is putting out, steel or heat treat wise. It's nice to deal with makers you can trust (Chinese d2 in budget knives I do not, same with brkt on anything).


Wirh BRKT, I wonder how much has to do with post HT grinding, and getting the surface/edge of the steel hot!!!

I've reground D2 blades post heat treat on some of my knives. It would be very easy to overheat the surface and significantly change the corrosion resistance properties, in my opinion. I've seen D2 blades of mine be much harder to polish, keep shiny after a regrind. I was running a fast belt, and not too new!!

No matter how good the heat treat on a steel is, you have to take care if you are removing steel, grinding post heat treat. I've outright burned steel on a 5160 knife at the very tit. It was immediately apparent, and I had to remove some steel to get back to good steel!!!
 
Wirh BRKT, I wonder how much has to do with post HT grinding, and getting the surface/edge of the steel hot!!!

I've reground D2 blades post heat treat on some of my knives. It would be very easy to overheat the surface and significantly change the corrosion resistance properties, in my opinion. I've seen D2 blades of mine be much harder to polish, keep shiny after a regrind. I was running a fast belt, and not too new!!

No matter how good the heat treat on a steel is, you have to take care if you are removing steel, grinding post heat treat. I've outright burned steel on a 5160 knife at the very tit. It was immediately apparent, and I had to remove some steel to get back to good steel!!!
Or making the knife with the steel you say it is.....
 
Wirh BRKT, I wonder how much has to do with post HT grinding, and getting the surface/edge of the steel hot!!!

I've reground D2 blades post heat treat on some of my knives. It would be very easy to overheat the surface and significantly change the corrosion resistance properties, in my opinion. I've seen D2 blades of mine be much harder to polish, keep shiny after a regrind. I was running a fast belt, and not too new!!

No matter how good the heat treat on a steel is, you have to take care if you are removing steel, grinding post heat treat. I've outright burned steel on a 5160 knife at the very tit. It was immediately apparent, and I had to remove some steel to get back to good steel!!!

That could be possible but also blade surface finish could be a big issue to. this guys topic isnt specific to this affect, but he does talk about it. he says it better than i could, so hence the video. skip to 1min 30 sec.


but yea, making the knife in the proper steel is idea too. they have testers for that if one needs to find out for sure.
 
Chinese knives seem to still be at their best when they are designed by 3rd party designers.

I'm sure I'll take flak for this but ... I lived and worked in Singapore for two years. Chinese culture is the dominant force there. The constant importation of foreign talent is to ensure innovation that they cannot do themselves. Why is cultural. They are not taught to think independently. Quite the opposite in fact. "The nail that sticks out is hammered down."
 
I'm sure I'll take flak for this but ... I lived and worked in Singapore for two years. Chinese culture is the dominant force there. The constant importation of foreign talent is to ensure innovation that they cannot do themselves. Why is cultural. They are not taught to think independently. Quite the opposite in fact. "The nail that sticks out is hammered down."

Alot of asian cultures are like that. I have heard the same nail saying used to describe Japanese society.

Funny thing is alot of the in-house chinese knife designs seem to be overly colourful, with too many angles and textures...so quite the opposite of subdued. Not that that is saying anything. Lots of asian art is very colourful and complex.

I don’t know what I am saying. I’m sure many people like the inhouse Rike and WE designs. Just I prefer something more understated. Carson Design Labs’ Megalodon (Real Steel makes production version) is an example of a great design coming out of China.

All just my opinions based on my tastes.
 
Alot of asian cultures are like that. I have heard the same nail saying used to describe Japanese society.

Funny thing is alot of the in-house chinese knife designs seem to be overly colourful, with too many angles and textures...so quite the opposite of subdued. Not that that is saying anything. Lots of asian art is very colourful and complex.

I don’t know what I am saying. I’m sure many people like the inhouse Rike and WE designs. Just I prefer something more understated. Carson Design Labs’ Megalodon (Real Steel makes production version) is an example of a great design coming out of China.

All just my opinions based on my tastes.
Just conjecture on my part but I do wonder if it's an attempt to capitalize on the lower cost of labor by putting on a lot of flourishes, or maybe they're trying to differentiate their relatively new brands from generics that made in China's known for.
 
Just conjecture on my part but I do wonder if it's an attempt to capitalize on the lower cost of labor by putting on a lot of flourishes, or maybe they're trying to differentiate their relatively new brands from generics that made in China's known for.

Could be that lower labour costs make those features a practicallity.

I think it has more to do with the fact they have the capacity to produce and so do so. But when it comes to design they aren’t fully experienced in what makes a modern knife a good design.

Sort of like that episode of the Simpsons where Homer designs a car. He’s the every man so obviously he knows the car the everyman wants right?

Not quite...
latest
 
Over the past few years a guy called Nick Shabazz became a tastemaker of sorts, via his YouTube channel. Most of his influence has been extremely positive and down-to-Earth in my opinion. I think he helped to end the obsession with overbuilt slab-sided titanium framelocks with stupid grinds, which have now fallen in price on the secondary market. His "Knife Gripes" series on Knife News called out a lot of bad habits in the industry, and had some big positive effects, including that Spyderco discontinued use of red (permanent) Loctite and stopped treating disassembly as an automatic warranty voider.

Instagram became the 24/7 knife show from hell. A mixture of great makers and crappy makers, and a million young doctors and lawyers who don't know the difference. Raffles where people pay $25 or $50 for a "chance" at a "grail" knife. Someone screaming the word "grail" every 1.27 seconds. Prices spiraling out of control. Everyone wishing for a "full dress" flipper with a Damasteel blade, Timascus clip, Zircuti bolster, and Mokuti scales, creating an overall effect that looks like television snow from a distance. People clamoring to snatch a "full dress grail" for $4000, before it gets flipped for $8000 on a dealer site the next week. Asymmetrical grinds. Bad customer service. Impersonators. Hacked accounts. People who can't figure out how to use Bladeforums complaining that they got scammed in a trade with "knife_maniac9728" or whatever. YouTubers who buy a new $5000 custom every week and ask for donations to their channel.

People are still spending money on knives like Emerson and Strider that reflect a total disinterest in consistency of craftsmanship. But we can drop Hinderer from that list, because he finally figured out that every knife should have the same detent and lock bars cut by inebriated people should be discarded. As soon as that happened, I bought a 6th-generation XM-18 and I'm a happy camper. Meanwhile companies like Grimsmo Knives, North Arm Knives, Holt Knives, and Three Rivers Manufacturing (TRM) demonstrated that you can make well-engineered, consistently high-quality knives in North America for a reasonable price (until the Grimsmo brothers decided to become a boy band and triple their prices).

Spyderco got even worse at making a knife that doesn't look like a platypus squatting over a bidet. Even with good makers and designers working with them, they can rarely produce a design without making it extremely weird. The greatest exception seems to be the work of Marcin Slysz, whose work they reproduced faithfully using their Taiwan manufacturing capability. The shining example of producing a practical mid-tech is the Spyderco Slysz Bowie, which looks almost identical to the custom. For this reason, they promptly discontinued the knife last year. Still gotta love 'em.
 
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Also amid all the nuttiness of the knife market, we have gotten some real gems that were flying under the radar before. North Arm Knives, TRM, Millit, and White River Knife and Tool are putting out consistently quality products.

I think that's one of the big stories - the surge in small, high-quality production shops.
 
Just conjecture on my part but I do wonder if it's an attempt to capitalize on the lower cost of labor by putting on a lot of flourishes, or maybe they're trying to differentiate their relatively new brands from generics that made in China's known for.

Perhaps bizarrely, the rigid artisanal aesthetic disciplines Japanese are known for fly out the window when modern is considered. Walk into any new hotel lobby and you will immediately understand.

It is the same in Chinese culture. Anthropologists have traced its source to the graphics that are Kanji (a system of Japanese writing using Chinese characters). A peek at the graphic layouts of modern print magazines also helps explain it.
 
Also amid all the nuttiness of the knife market, we have gotten some real gems that were flying under the radar before. North Arm Knives, TRM, Millit, and White River Knife and Tool are putting out consistently quality products.

I think that's one of the big stories - the surge in small, high-quality production shops.
I agree that trend has certainly happened in the last couple of years. The biggest change since 2012 is more "super steels" and the super steels of 2012 are somewhat common place now. That does not make them bad choices for knives.

Some of the Italian manufacturers have also made quite an imprint on the knife industry as a whole.

BRKT has changed since 2012 from essentially a A2 shop to A2 and super steels of various kinds.
 
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