Here's a rare one!

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Larry303 said:
...Codger you refer to the 3OT as almost being a "one off" like those individual protos we see from the Wall collection / clearout sales I feel there is more of a story than just one or few being made and not proceeded with ,as not only are they so similar to the 2OT from the same period circa 1959 but why would Schrade Walden designate a "production" number 3OT to a one off proto?I believe there are more, albeit pretty tightly held and there is a story as to why they did not proceed to production...
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An interesting question as to why the 3OT sheepfoot version was not produced beyond the initial quantity of salesman’s samples. While only the former company production manager could give a definitive answer, here is my opinion. Money.

The Imperial Knife Associated Companies were in business to make a profit. They did so by capturing market shares with products in every category and price range. When a pattern failed to sell in sufficient numbers, it was dropped from the lineup. Knives with sheepfoot master blades, while unique and popular with today’s collectors, were not very popular in the early 1960's. Sears, the only retailer to buy a quantity of the new 2OT, either failed to order any of the 3OT variant, or were the only ones to do so, albeit in insufficient quantity.

At any rate, during the year 1959, the small army of salesmen, armed with the literature and samples, failed to solicit more than 500 or so pieces of the 3OT ordered. While the 2OT received a somewhat more enthusiastic orders (including the Sears Craftsman order). The 2OT was in fact itself a failure in marketing. While it did serve as a flagship for the newly created Old Timer line, it’s five years of production only netted an average of 3,600 a year, hardly profitable for material acquisition, die stamping, assembly set up, packaging and marketing. These knives were, for the time, expensive.

To illustrate the lack of popularity of the sheepfoot as a master blade during the early 1960's, we might look briefly at the lower priced Old Timers introduced concurrently with the end of the 2OT, the Ulster 10OT (1964) and 12OT (1964). Based upon previous designs, the Ulster #10 Barlow (Clip blade) and the Ulster #12 (Sheepfoot blade), the OT Barlows were much cheaper to produce, and lower retail priced than the sleeveboards.

In it’s first production year the 10OT sold nearly 10,000 pieces while the 12OT sold only about 1,500. Over the three year period during which both were produced, the 10OT averaged 11,750 pieces a year, selling approximately 35,500 pieces. The less popular 12OT sheepfoot only sold about 3,000 pieces and was dropped from the line after the 1966 production year.

The more popular 10OT continued for quite a few years, eventually reaching annual production in excess of 40,000 pieces by 1972 (I’ve not yet researched the pattern beyond 1972). All three of the base Ulster Barlow patterns were continued for some time, however. Did I say three? Yes, the #10 was a clip, #11 was a spear (not used as an OT) and the #12 was the sheepfoot.

Larry303 said:
...and why didnt they produce more/classic examples like they did after some years after 1959 similar to what they did with the 2OT?...
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They did. None were as fancy as the Washington bolstered 2OT, but nearly every Old Timer (excepting the lockbacks and later designs) can be found rooted in the Schrade Cut Co. or Schrade Walden open stock, or Ulster inventory. I would imagine that some of the original tooling was even pressed back into service, and in some cases served double duty for open stock and Ulster knives which continued to be produced.

Michael
 
Since I won the auction on this knife, I've received two emails of congratulations, and one, a bit testy about being "sneaky"! Some of you may remember a discussion of bidding protocol a while back; I'm not 100% sure it was in this forum, but anyway, I stated I didn't care if someone outbid me because it's an open and public auction, and everyone should be free to bid what they are willing to pay. I couldn't discuss it here because I've had my snipe set up for nearly the whole span of the auction! FYI, my maximum was $171.00! I figured a rare knife like that was worth closer to $200, and someone would easily clean my clock, but at $171.00 I could carry it a bit, and it would not lose it's value. Who wouldn't want a 2OT in their pocket??
Anyway, if someone feels hard done by, send me my cost, and I'll send you the knife; life's too short for any hard feelings,
Charlie
 
I have made no contact with Charlie since auction.
I have one 2OT you have two 2OT's and member D.&B. continues to have no 2OT, despite his transparency with bidding on this forum... and he very nearly made it.I also thought the knife was worth nearer $200 however I could never do what I just saw happen.
To the forum members who sent emails of congratulations rather than post on here it just about says it all. D.& B I will say it.. you just got kicked in the guts mate, but in a justified sort of way,however I feel we've all lost a bit including this forum, trust being the main casualty, and that means nothing really differentiates us forum members from the herd on Ebay I generally get taken apart at this point so do your worst.Hoo Roo
 
waynorth said:
I couldn't discuss it here because I've had my snipe set up for nearly the whole span of the auction!

Charlie
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Charlie, what's done is done, but a gentlemanly way to have handled this would have been for you to email ducks and bucks to let him know that you were bidding too, since he had declared his intent on this forum.

Also, I don't know what kind of sniping software you use, but I never heard of any that couldn't be undone once a bid is set up.
 
Just my two cents, I've been beaten by Charlie and several other members on this thread on auctions in the past, and never had any hard feelings as a result. They wanted it more than me and that's that. Sure I've been a bit grumpy about losing, but that quickly diminishes when another great buy catches my eye. Just part of doing business on an auction. As long as D & B isn't upset about it, I don't see why anyone else here should be.
Eric
 
Well, let me put my two cents in here......I wanted the knife but honored Codger's bid until he said he was out of it. If anyone else had told me they wanted it, I would have stepped aside. The shame is that if you had told me you were doing it, you could have had it much cheaper. While you got if for $171 plus shipping, your method cost you quite a bit more than if you had notified me. You probably could have had it at least $50 cheaper but since you employed the method you did, it cost you full price. To be quite honest, I was ticked off but figured I had lost it to someone anonymous. You certainly don't owe anyone (least of all me) but sometimes it's hard to remember who's who. I didn't know it was Charlie who had overbid me until now. I'm hoping it was the other way around as well. Oh well, such is the way of life that a public forum will outrank common protocol amongst friends. With that being said, I'm not bitter in any way.....congrats on the knife. I'm sure it will have a good home.
 
muskrat man said:
whattaya comin' to the buckeye state fer? :D
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Going to the NKCA show....you gonna be there? By the way, got the 204S back on Saturday....she's a beauty! If you're going to be at the show on Friday, I'll be more than happy to show you how nice she looks in my pocket. You did a great job and I'm proud to carry her.:)
 
Larry303 said:
D & B, Sorry mate I saw it but I dont quite believe it........Hoo Roo
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Thanks Larry, that's alright. If it's the biggest disappointment in my life, then my life is going pretty well and I can hardly complain about losing an auction. At least we know where the knife went.
 
I can see my view of this bidding protocol is different from the mainstream. If we were all sitting in the auction house, raising our paddles to bid, it would be more as I see it, but we aren't. I may never get it, but I see I have to do something here, and would like to speak with you D & B. Do you mind emailing me at;
charlie.campagna@telus.net ?
 
ea42 said:
Just my two cents, I've been beaten by Charlie and several other members on this thread on auctions in the past, and never had any hard feelings as a result. They wanted it more than me and that's that. Sure I've been a bit grumpy about losing, but that quickly diminishes when another great buy catches my eye. Just part of doing business on an auction. As long as D & B isn't upset about it, I don't see why anyone else here should be.
Eric
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Eric, I'm sure that I have bid against others here and others here have bid against me as well. When many are sniping at the last minute, there's no way of knowing who is going to do what.

That's not the point here though, D&B had declared for all to see in this forum his intent to give it a try when Codger bowed out. I can't swear that Charlie saw and knew that, but I would be VERY surprised if he didn't.
 
Charlie,
You don't have to do a thing....the knife is yours. As has been stated, you won the knife fair and square. I really don't hold any hard feelings. I always try to see if I recognize the names who have the bid and if I do, I step aside. But, that doesn't mean it's the right or wrong way to do things. At a public auction with paddles, I'd do the same if I saw it was a friend. The way I see it now is at least the knife is in good hands and will be taken care of. I would hope that no one here would hold you in contempt as it is a public auction. I'd just as soon let the whole thing die. We've spent too much time on it as it is. You probably didn't even realize it was me you were bidding against anyways.

Marc
 
I usually set my price and forget it, Marc. I work on call, and can't always sit at the computer waiting for auction end. When I saw the knife on search, I set up my snipe, thinking I could actually carry a rare knife without devaluing it!
I followed the thread as people jumped in and out, figuring I had the right to bid also. I also thought with all the hype, it would go over $200, and was surprised it didn't even reach my max.
I have tried to bid my maximum on the ebay system, and then watched for a week while some timid bidders drove the price to the moon a dollar or two at a time. (24 bids from 3-4 actual bidders!)
Enough said; if you want the knife, it's yours for your maximum bid. I'll have it sent straight to you if possible.
Your choice!
I've said this before, but here it is again; in the future, if I see a rare knife that needs bidding on, I will bid on it, and I won't discuss it here, and I will hope that no-one notices the auction, so the price will stay reasonable.
Some others here have bought knives cheap that are off the radar, and gloat afterwards. It seems counter-intuitive to talk it up first.
 
Thanks for the offer Charlie. The knife is yours. I'm going to the NKCA show on Friday anyways. Maybe the money not spent on the 2OT will go towards some other unique and rare knife. Have fun with your new knife!
 
Enjoy the show! I expect you to fully gloat about your finds there!!
There will be a knife or two I'll have to pass up at Oregon!
 
ducks_and_bucks66 said:
Going to the NKCA show....you gonna be there? By the way, got the 204S back on Saturday....she's a beauty! If you're going to be at the show on Friday, I'll be more than happy to show you how nice she looks in my pocket. You did a great job and I'm proud to carry her.:)
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Glad you like it Marc, the NKCA on the 27th-29th of this month? I'll probably be there, I've been waiting for another good local nkca show, so I'll most likely be there. I won't be set up, but walking around drooling on every schrade I see :p
 
Hey Muskrat,
What day will you be there? I'll be there Friday around noon. If you want, we can hook up there. Maybe I'll bring you another knife or two to work on for me. Let me know if you are. You can e-mail me at ducks1166@comcast.net.

Marc
 
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