Higher standards for hard use folders today?

[Folderguy]

I was kinda baffled at why the cheese cutter's knife people were so vehement in trying to convince me that I had no use/need for some of the folders that I want. I tried to explain why but it seems they didn't want explanations and clarifications. They just wanted to convert me.

You know, as well as I do, that there are times when a mean looking blade might just save your life... and knowing that it won't fold on you, or break if you happen to hit a wall with it provides plenty of confidence.

Actually, I'd not be surprised if the mere presence of a mean looking knife might just deter crime, much in the same way the mere presence of a firearm often prevents crime. No doubt in my mind.

 

[singularity35]

You know, as well as I do, that there are times when a mean looking blade might just save your life... and knowing that it won't fold on you, or break if you happen to hit a wall with it provides plenty of confidence.

Actually, I'd not be surprised if the mere presence of a mean looking knife might just deter crime, much in the same way the mere presence of a firearm often prevents crime. No doubt in my mind.

Totally agree on that.

 

[philwar]

I think you're just generally baffled on a lot of things.

That's what you get when people feel rejected.

 

[Boats]

You've got that a$$ backwards: It's the users of delicate and/or traditional knives who are always ragging on the fans of tough folders. "What use are they?" and "They don't cut worth a damn."

This entire thread is premised upon whether there are higher standards for whatever a "hard use" folder is, that were apparently lower in the past. This alleged raising of standards would necessarily imply that the standards were raised in response to some perceived deficiencies in the older standards.

That begs the question, "What is this 'hard use' that was an unmet need?" Apparently, there is another thread, running contemporaneously, that shows that extremely "hard use" is actually pretty hard to define. The reason this is so is because the more ridiculous cases of hard use are on some level rather embarrassing to detail due to such cases tending to show off a lack of mental dexterity that forced a knife into a task or into a role for which even "hard use" folders are ill suited.

I don't care about those comments. I have all types of folders, and like hard-use folders the most, but I also don't feel any need to convince anyone else of the use or need for such a knife. I haven't seen anyone else play advocate either.

I was only asking folks to step up and actually detail the actual or imagined "hard uses." For the most part the response has been a whine about a misunderstood love that apparently no one is willing to divulge details about.

It's the typical Endura user (great knife, no offense intended) who feels the need to convince me and people like me that our wants/needs/desires are useless/redundant/absent. Leave us alone to talk about the next indestructable folder, and you'll never even know we're here.

As a rule, I do not run around bashing "indestructible" folders, except when they fail to be so. This thread specifically was getting at why many of these folders exist. What is being revealed is that they exist for the same reason the Hummer H3 does.

 

[Boats]

So now you've just degenerated to insults? :jerkit:

Just joining you at your preferred level of discourse.

 

[singularity35]

I think what the critics are saying is that the "projected needs" are "projected fantasies" in most cases.

The only justification I need is that every "hard use" folder I have ever handled felt like crap in the hand. Rather like a Glock does actually.

Just joining you at your preferred level of discourse.

Don't you get it yet? it's none of your business what I buy, why make it yours?

Whose level of discourse?

As for the H3 what is it to you?

 

[hardheart]

So now you've just degenerated to insults? :jerkit:

I guess he's a butthurt cheese cutter?

 

[philwar]

This entire thread is premised upon whether there are higher standards for whatever a "hard use" folder is, that were apparently lower in the past.

Yes they were. And you are not going to be shown any more examples by me.

I was only asking folks to step up and actually detail the actual or imagined "hard uses." For the most part the response has been a whine about a misunderstood love that apparently no one is willing to divulge details about.

Let me make it real simple for you: I want such folders to do pretty much what a fixed blade can do. A fixed blade will always be tougher, but a folder that can do the day-to-day tasks that a small FB is designed for, without undue wear and tear, is fine.

This thread specifically was getting at why many of these folders exist. What is being revealed is that they exist for the same reason the Hummer H3 does.

The H3 is a better off-roader than almost anything designed 30 years ago, in spite of the fact that the designers also knew that most owners will never even park on the sidewalk. So you see, the ZT0300 is a better 'pocket knife' than just about anything designed 30 years ago. Unless whittling toothpicks is your ONLY priority.

 

[hardheart]

As brought up, a small fixed blade is not just a small fixed blade. Matching something like the Hunter's Scalpel wouldn't take as much as matching a fatty GW.

 

[JNewell]

This is all perfectly fine, but meeting the higher standards does impose some design and size/weight limitations that may affect EDC-ability. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn't. And there are very valid reasons for carrying a "hard use" folder (e.g., and I believe this is a legitimate consideration, not freaking out NKP on a mountain trail).

IMHO, it's all good. Choice is good. More/better steels. More/better locks. Even more/better grinds. We have never had it as good as we do today, and I don't see that changing. :thumbup:

Yes they were. And you are not going to be shown any more examples by me.


Let me make it real simple for you: I want such folders to do pretty much what a fixed blade can do. A fixed blade will always be tougher, but a folder that can do the day-to-day tasks that a small FB is designed for, without undue wear and tear, is fine.


The H3 is a better off-roader than almost anything designed 30 years ago, in spite of the fact that the designers also knew that most owners will never even park on the sidewalk. So you see, the ZT0300 is a better 'pocket knife' than just about anything designed 30 years ago. Unless whittling toothpicks is your ONLY priority.

 

[mjolnir74]

After carrying a slipjoint only for about 3 years I came to this conclusion. It will do everything I need to do...but there are other knives that are more appropriate for the harder use. Can I skin a deer with a slippie, yep. Two last year. Does my umnumzaan do a better job, umm yeah, much better. Hard use knives can be used with gloves, the blades don't flex with hard cutting, or loosen up. The blades won't close on you when you're cutting limbs. They carry easier than fb's. I hunt from sept-Jan. During this time my knives see weekly hard use. They make more sense from my experience. And anyone on this forum that implies someone else is a knife nerd needs to look in the mirror.

 

[John Smith V]

man, this thread!

it's really just all about innovation, innit? you want to make something smaller and stronger. so there.

would you rather be lugging a boombox on your shoulder, or have an ipod in your ears?

and there seems to be a lot of talk about prying? really? what, during the course of a normal day, do you need to pry? unless you're a painter - nothing.

whoever's edc'ing pocket prybars should really get together and start a prybar forum

dot com

 

[misterjuiceman]

man, this thread!

it's really just all about innovation, innit? you want to make something smaller and stronger. so there.

would you rather be lugging a boombox on your shoulder, or have an ipod in your ears?

and there seems to be a lot of talk about prying? really? what, during the course of a normal day, do you need to pry? unless you're a painter - nothing.

whoever's edc'ing pocket prybars should really get together and start a prybar forum

dot com

exactly. I've heard of some people prying open crates and stuff like that, MAYBE you can get away with that using an XM-18 or an SNG, but why chance it? use a pry bar!

 

[Boats]

exactly. I've heard of some people prying open crates and stuff like that, MAYBE you can get away with that using an XM-18 or an SNG, but why chance it? use a pry bar!

Don't dare question their intelligence though.

 

[flipe8]

In an emergency, I can certainly see using a knife for abusive, non-knife tasks. But I kinda shake my head when I read of people basically seeking out tasks that can damage their knives for no other reason than "just because"... Prying the lid off a paint can was just mentionned and I did just that yesterday. But I didn't use my $400 Umnumzaan. Instead, I opted for my $30 SAK. At work, I'm lucky enough to be able to play with far better tools designed to take a part whatever happens to be in front of me, leaving my folder basically safe to do what it does best.

 

[philwar]

After carrying a slipjoint only for about 3 years I came to this conclusion. It will do everything I need to do...but there are other knives that are more appropriate for the harder use. Can I skin a deer with a slippie, yep. Two last year. Does my umnumzaan do a better job, umm yeah, much better. Hard use knives can be used with gloves, the blades don't flex with hard cutting, or loosen up. The blades won't close on you when you're cutting limbs. They carry easier than fb's. I hunt from sept-Jan. During this time my knives see weekly hard use. They make more sense from my experience. And anyone on this forum that implies someone else is a knife nerd needs to look in the mirror.

Thank you for an utterly rational and logical post. :thumbup:

 

[philwar]

Don't dare question their intelligence though.

Nope, just yours, for sticking around here when you've made your (irrelevant) point six different ways already. You're not interested in hard use folders and nobody's interested in you. Now go over to the offroaders forum and tell them the H3 sucks and the Willys is da bomb. :barf:

 

[Kaizen1]

This entire thread is premised upon whether there are higher standards for whatever a "hard use" folder is, that were apparently lower in the past. This alleged raising of standards would necessarily imply that the standards were raised in response to some perceived deficiencies in the older standards.

Not "perceived deficiencies", but rather improvement toward some particular aim, ie specialization. That something isn't as specialized as something else doesn't imply there is necessarily a deficiency about. Specialization doesn't necessarily entail a utilitarian purpose either. It can simply be targeted toward some kind of aesthetic, like timascus or a maker's mark, etc. If most people start demanding timascus on all of their folders, it can be justifiably described as "people having a higher standard" toward knives that have timascus. That's to say, people then have a greater expectation toward knives having timascus. A lack of timascus in this scenario wouldn't however imply a "deficiency" or even a perceived one since "deficiency" implies necessity.

That begs the question, "What is this 'hard use' that was an unmet need?"

This is an improper use of the phrase "begging the question." Well, some Hollywood ignoramus decided it was okay to change the definition, so now we have this modern usage that is completely detached from it's originally intended meaning. Begging the question refers to petitio principii, ie circular reasoning. Ironically, you're begging the question by asserting that necessity must be implied simply because there is a greater demand of a given thing. You've failed to argue this point coherently.

You're persistence in this thread is increasingly appearing very troll-like. You've been in these forums a long time and have quite a few posts, so I'm sure you're a good guy. It's easy to get emotional about this stuff without realizing it. Why not let the hard use fans live in their apocalyptic tactiworld and just consider it a win for yourself so everyone can move on to discussing their preferences and shared love for knives?

 

[hardheart]

I'm not quite following. If a person wants a timascus knife, then a knife without timascus would be deficient, would it not? Timascus being a necessity to meet the demand for a knife with timascus.

In the OP, it was asked if 'hard use' knives from years ago were no longer 'hard use'. I took that to mean that the past knives are not able to meet some modern arbitrary performance requirements to meet the definition. Isn't that being deficient? Not having the capabilities required for a certain classification?

ETA: here is a thread on abuse I started a couple years ago. The thread starter was not registered back then, he may/not find anything of interest in it. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564289

 

[Kaizen1]

I'm not quite following. If a person wants a timascus knife, then a knife without timascus would be deficient, would it not? Timascus being a necessity to meet the demand for a knife with timascus.

In the OP, it was asked if 'hard use' knives from years ago were no longer 'hard use'. I took that to mean that the past knives are not able to meet some modern arbitrary performance requirements to meet the definition. Isn't that being deficient? Not having the capabilities required for a certain classification?

ETA: here is a thread on abuse I started a couple years ago. The thread starter was not registered back then, he may/not find anything of interest in it. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=564289

We need to make some distinctions. First is that between desire and "necessity." The question of "deficiency" should first cover, "A deficiency in what, exactly?" There appears to be at least two uses for necessity here. One is in the functionality of the items in question and another is in a person's buying criterion. This provides at least two aims that need to be met: the cutting job and convincing someone to purchase an item.

If we're honest with ourselves, we can get most cutting jobs done with a relatively cheap blade. If the blade breaks off of the folder, we would still be capable of finishing the job if we got creative. If we were stuck alone on an island and our folder's blade broke off of the handle, we could still find a use for that blade (hold the blade itself for cutting, tie it to a stick, etc). The only "necessity" for the aim of the cutting job would be something sharp that could separate the material. Anything above that is simply a matter of convenience to whatever degree.

Timascus from the standpoint of knife functionality is irrelevant. Its only "necessity" lies in getting the guy that "must" own timascus to buy the knife in the first place. In that sense, sure we can call it a "necessity", but it's getting pretty close to blurring the lines between needs and wants.

Judging the usage of "deficiency" in Boat's posts within his context, he appears to be making the claim that because one's desire increases for X feature in a knife, it necessarily implies that a needed function is lacking. This doesn't necessarily follow as far as I can tell since the purpose of the increased desire is left ambiguous. This provides the room to switch definitions from the criterion for buying to the functionality of the knife- a non sequitur.

As to the added performance of hard use knives, I don't think there's much controversy there. The controversy seems to lie in the question as to whether or not that added performance is something to be reasonably desired in a folder or not- a matter of subjective preference rather than one of physical limitation. And since we're talking about desire and not necessity of functionality for cutting (eg, a blade is generally needed for cutting), all the hoopla about judging hard use knife fans looks a lot like the pot calling the kettle black.