Hinderer heat treats

Status
Not open for further replies.
Cgw1984 said:
Its hilarious to me how quickly thisnforum rushes to defend big makers. He sent a shit knife out,nbd, it happens. What DOESN'T always happen is childish temper tantrums. Dudes a dbag, and i don't care enough about his also-ran knives to support wackjobs. That said, the absurd hero worship of a glorified machinist is hilarious.
Click to expand...

It's hilarious to me how low-post-count posters who don't realize how small of a company Hinderer Knives is (because talking trash is always easier than, you know, doing even 30 seconds of Google-fu), are always quick to label them the bad guy.

Yeah, Hinderer is making mega millions from making knives. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
Yo Mama said:
Transparent Knives is who got the cease and desist letter. He also made quite a bit of money off of the donations he received to fight the hinderer machine, which never sued, and low and behold the money was not returned to my knowledge to anyone that donated to the moron. Nice publicity stunt for TK. I'll let others decide this guy's mental status if you go on Instagram.
Click to expand...

Buddy here probably didn't "hear" about any of that though. 🤣
 
wonkaman4609 said:
I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything. I've heard in multiple forums and on multiple well respected youtube channels including transparent knives. that many companies treat there steels lower them optimum specs on purpose, in some cases to save costs on manufacturing. As far as the Hinderer knives that part. That isn't hearsay. Its well known that Hinderer knives did send a cease and desist letter and pursue a lawsuit to get him to recant his statements on the steel which tested below optimum levels. I don't ever even think he said that hinderer lied about the hrc. I think he simply stated that it was below what was optimum for the steel.
Click to expand...
Yes you are
You stated Hinderer and "other companies" are lying about the hrc. If you had just stated they were not hardening the steel to optimum hardness that would just be an opinion but that isn't what you did.
 
A lot of vitriol by some here as a result of humans being humans. Perhaps it's warranted, but it all seems kind of silly to me. There is some misinformation in this thread, so I'll give my take:

Transparent Knives ("TK") is a little one man shop started by a guy that loves knives. He saw things going on in the industry that he thought were wrong, and he created his business to correct those things. One of the things he thinks is wrong is suboptimal heat treats in the industry. Another is poor or rude customer service. He does (primarily) reblades to address the problems he sees with good heat treat and good cutting geometry. He does good work. His customer service is top notch and he seems to be a nice person. He also "evangelizes" about the issues he sees in the interest of "transparency" to the consumer (hence the name of his business).

The Hinderer issue came out this context. He HRC tested a Hinderer knife and it came up in spec (but on the soft side). TK went off about how the heat treat was lacking. He spoke loosely like one would speak to a buddy in a garage, but he posted publicly. He used words like "garbage." He speculated on why Hinderer may run their 20CV soft, but he was really speaking about industry-wide suboptimal heat treats. He speculated that softer HRCs were easier and cheaper to grind among other reasons. My personal opinion only is that he was probably right speaking broadly, that M390 and its analogs are usually run softer than would be optimal based on the data (by a host of manufacturers, domestic and abroad).

I think TK went over the top. It seems like he was really coming down on Hinderer when his real beef was industry wide. He made too much of a point or two of HRC. He made something relatively trivial into a "battle between good and evil."

Hinderer sent a cease and desist letter. I am unaware of any actual lawsuit filed. I thought the C&D was bullsh*t. My personal opinion is that Hinderer knew it was, and sent it anyway to bully a small time business to stop saying things (potentially true things) that affected their bottom line. I don't think Hinderer ever intended to file suit or do anything beyond send the letter. I can also completely understand why TK's rant would legitimately piss off Hinderer.

TK started a GoFundMe in response to the "threat" of a lawsuit. Compete BS, in my opinion. He raised a significant amount of money to have some lawyer write a responsive letter to the C&D. His biggest transgression, in my view, was allowing people to think he (poor little guy) had been sued by Hinderer (big bad guy). I am not sure what happened to all that money, but if he pocketed it, that action is worse than anything Hinderer did. I know that TK has sometimes donated excess proceeds to charities, which he may have done here. If that was disclosed to donors up front and then actually done, its less bad but still BS, again in my opinion. Even if the excess was donated, my feeling is that the donations were based on the pretext that he was being sued, which was not accurate to my knowledge. I personally think it far more likely that TK is overly sensitive and naive, rather than a calculating conman, but I'm just speculating.

TK has been involved in more drama since (and prior), and there have been accounts of the prickly nature of Hinderer with customers. No one involved is bathed in glory.

(edited for typo)
 
Last edited:
Cgw1984 said:
Its hilarious to me how quickly thisnforum rushes to defend big makers. He sent a shit knife out,nbd, it happens. What DOESN'T always happen is childish temper tantrums. Dudes a dbag, and i don't care enough about his also-ran knives to support wackjobs. That said, the absurd hero worship of a glorified machinist is hilarious.
Click to expand...

Likewise, it’s hilarious to read some of these comments, as if folks actually make knife purchases based on the disposition of the people who work there. Weird, I don’t do that lol I will say, whatever the number is, I’m sure it will work well. The guy has been making knives for decades. I have 20CV on mine, and I’m very happy with the performance. It’s NOT supposed to compete with a PM2 or a TRM. They aren’t knives your gonna slice paper with all day, they are made to actually USE. Hard… even tho people don’t, you can, so rest easy. And you won’t chip the blade if you cut a zip tie or pistachio like some other 20CV
 
Cgw1984 said:
Are you a victim of a tbi?
Click to expand...
Yes, he was pulled through the intake manifold, cylinder heads, and sent right through to the combustion chamber 🤣

Cgw1984 said:
I literally said they both were shady here. I DO know more about machining and heat treating than either of them though, that I'll promise.
Click to expand...



Well, if you say you know more about heat treats than a guy who’s been doing it for 35 years, of course I trust you, Mr. Internet Expert! Lmfao 🤣
 
SCTorrero said:
A lot of vitriol by some here as a result of humans being humans. Perhaps it's warranted, but it all seems kind of silly to me. There is some misinformation in this thread, so I'll give my take:

Transparent Knives ("TK") is a little one man shop started by a guy that loves knives. He saw things going on in the industry that he thought were wrong, and he created his business to correct those things. One of the things he thinks is wrong is suboptimal heat treats in the industry. Another is poor or rude customer service. He does (primarily) reblades to address the problems he sees with good heat treat and good cutting geometry. He does good work. His customer service is top notch and he seems to be a nice person. He also "evangelizes" about the issues he sees in the interest of "transparency" to the consumer (hence the name of his business).

The Hinderer issue came out this context. He HRC tested a Hinderer knife and it came up in spec (but on the soft side). TK went off about how the heat treat was lacking. He spoke loosely like one would speak to a buddy in a garage, but he posted publicly. He used words like "garbage." He speculated on why Hinderer may run their 20CV soft, but he was really speaking about industry-wide suboptimal heat treats. He speculated that softer HRCs were easier and cheaper to grind among other reasons. My personal opinion only is that he was probably right speaking broadly, that M390 and its analogs are usually run softer than would be optimal based on the data (by a host of manufacturers, domestic and abroad).

I think TK went over the top. It seems like he was really coming down on Hinderer when his real beef was industry wide. He made too much of a point or two of HRC. He made something relatively trivial into a "battle between good and evil."

Hinderer sent a cease and desist letter. I am unaware of any actual lawsuit filed. I thought the C&D was bullsh*t. My personal opinion is that Hinderer knew it was, and sent it anyway to bully a small time business to stop saying things (potentially true things) that affected their bottom line. I don't think Hinderer ever intended to file suit or do anything beyond send the letter. I can also completely understand why TK's rant would legitimately piss off Hinderer.

TK started a GoFundMe in response to the "threat" of a lawsuit. Compete BS, in my opinion. He raised a significant amount of money to have some lawyer right a responsive letter to the C&D. His biggest transgression, in my view, was allowing people to think he (poor little guy) had been sued by Hinderer (big bad guy). I am not sure what happened to all that money, but if he pocketed it, that action is worse than anything Hinderer did. I know that TK has sometimes donated excess proceeds to charities, which he may have done here. If that was disclosed to donors up front and then actually done, its less bad but still BS, again in my opinion. Even if the excess was donated, my feeling is that the donations were based on the pretext that he was being sued, which was not accurate to my knowledge. I personally think it far more likely that TK is overly sensitive and naive, rather than a calculating conman, but I'm just speculating.

TK has been involved in more drama since (and prior), and there have been accounts of the prickly nature of Hinderer with customers. No one involved is bathed in glory.
Click to expand...

This is a SUPER soft representation of what actually happened. TK is some dude who seems to believe that having a horde of Instagram followers gives his opinions* some sort of objective validity or special weight. They don't. He's not an industry expert, he's a guy who lives at home with his Mom and makes reblades for Instagram people who seem to think that the best use for a knife is how many sheets of phone book paper it can cut. High hardness isn't the best for a daily use pocket knife, but of course, IG EDC people (I'm one, and know the crowd that that hashtag attracts in general) don't actually use their knives for the most part, so how would they know? The very first time one of TKs fanbags cut through something harder than a slice of bread and they accidentally apply a smidge of sideways torque to the edge, and snap a chip out of the edge, think they'll blow TK up over it?

So, this guy, in this instance went after ANOTHER small business owner, using his legion of IG fanbag bottomfeeders to do it. Rick Hinderer is a jerk (feel free to use whatever descriptor you'd like), but dude is also an industry icon. People have been buying and using (actually using, not cutting phone book paper or judging a knife's worth by how well it shaves a strand of hair) Hinderer knives for decades. That alone is more realworld credibility than Mom's Garage Knives (TM) has any right to. So, when this dude came in and tried to act like he knew better than RHK (or other main industry names), he came off as ridiculous. Then, when RHK sent him a letter telling him to shut his trap and stop having his fanballs legion try to brigade RHK all over the internet, dude dropped his diaper, and the huge waterworks and feartears happened. I watched his stream, and man, I have to tell you, I don't know how anyone could respect TK after that. Like....wow. I don't know what happened to his manhood, but it definitely wasn't present in that video that day. If you have to beg for money in order to try to stave off the consequences of your own actions, that speaks to a pretty poor upbringing. So, no, I don't think TK is a good guy, sorry not sorry.

In short, RHK? Huge jerk, but he's been making knives that people have depended on, and enjoyed for decades. TK is a stooge who can't even afford his own place, who decided that he would set himself up as some sort of arbiter of truth, and he got told to sit down and shut up. An apology and retraction was in order, but anyway, we are rehashing something which, at this point, has long since blown over. The original thread about this situation was sufficiently long as it was.

Also, I am still the Arbiter of Bread.





* Which is what they are, let's not get this twisted.
 
Quiet said:
This is a SUPER soft representation of what actually happened. TK is some dude who seems to believe that having a horde of Instagram followers gives his opinions* some sort of objective validity or special weight. They don't. He's not an industry expert, he's a guy who lives at home with his Mom and makes reblades for Instagram people who seem to think that the best use for a knife is how many sheets of phone book paper it can cut. High hardness isn't the best for a daily use pocket knife, but of course, IG EDC people (I'm one, and know the crowd that that hashtag attracts in general) don't actually use their knives for the most part, so how would they know? The very first time one of TKs fanbags cut through something harder than a slice of bread and they accidentally apply a smidge of sideways torque to the edge, and snap a chip out of the edge, think they'll blow TK up over it?

So, this guy, in this instance went after ANOTHER small business owner, using his legion of IG fanbag bottomfeeders to do it. Rick Hinderer is a jerk (feel free to use whatever descriptor you'd like), but dude is also an industry icon. People have been buying and using (actually using, not cutting phone book paper or judging a knife's worth by how well it shaves a strand of hair) Hinderer knives for decades. That alone is more realworld credibility than Mom's Garage Knives (TM) has any right to. So, when this dude came in and tried to act like he knew better than RHK (or other main industry names), he came off as ridiculous. Then, when RHK sent him a letter telling him to shut his trap and stop having his fanballs legion try to brigade RHK all over the internet, dude dropped his diaper, and the huge waterworks and feartears happened. I watched his stream, and man, I have to tell you, I don't know how anyone could respect TK after that. Like....wow. I don't know what happened to his manhood, but it definitely wasn't present in that video that day. If you have to beg for money in order to try to stave off the consequences of your own actions, that speaks to a pretty poor upbringing. So, no, I don't think TK is a good guy, sorry not sorry.

In short, RHK? Huge jerk, but he's been making knives that people have depended on, and enjoyed for decades. TK is a stooge who can't even afford his own place, who decided that he would set himself up as some sort of arbiter of truth, and he got told to sit down and shut up. An apology and retraction was in order, but anyway, we are rehashing something which, at this point, has long since blown over. The original thread about this situation was sufficiently long as it was.

Also, I am still the Arbiter of Bread.





* Which is what they are, let's not get this twisted.
Click to expand...
I agree with much of this, disagree with some. It seems to me you are using some of the hyperbole you take issue with (and I know we have been down this road).

I think our biggest source of disagreement is on the nature of TK's (or MGK's) opinions. You imply his opinion is essentially that of a layperson and employ some ad hominem. I disagree. It suffices to say I don't think his opinions are pulled from thin air, as you suggest. That is not to say I think he is always right. I do not think he is unbiased. I think he has shown terrible judgment. I'll leave it at that (unless you take issue with sourdough being the king of breads, then we seem to have a fight on our hands). Take care, man.
 
SCTorrero said:
I agree with much of this, disagree with some. It seems to me you are using some of the hyperbole you take issue with (and I know we have been down this road).

I think our biggest source of disagreement is on the nature of TK's (or MGK's) opinions. You imply his opinion is essentially that of a layperson and employ some ad hominem. I disagree. It suffices to say I don't think his opinions are pulled from thin air, as you suggest. That is not to say I think he is always right. I do not think he is unbiased. I think he has shown terrible judgment. I'll leave it at that (unless you take issue with sourdough being the king of breads, then we seem to have a fight on our hands). Take care, man.
Click to expand...

He IS a layperson, which is the problem. There is literally nothing in TK's background that gives him any sort of objective authority to be calling out makers who have made a successful small business that has stood the test of time, making and selling knives. Sorry, there isn't. I don't care what research he's done, or what he's read. He's not an expert, no matter how many of his IG fanbase thinks his word is law over established makers who've actually created and maintain a successful business.

I get a feeling from your posts that you're a fan of TK, which is entirely fine. I have zero issue with you personally. However, again, I am on IG and watched all this happen when it happened, and recall all these smoothbrains on his feed and in the comments talking about "WELL I ALWAYS KNEW HINDERERS WERE TRASH!!!"* And that was a lot of them, which was the problem. This situation was gaining traction all over on IG, Facebook knife communities, on some Youtube comments, on Reddit, and a few other places I frequent. People who had no exposure to the entirety of the situation were like "What! Hinderer threatening The Little Guy (TM)**, that must mean what he said is TRUE!!!" So yeah, I understand completely why RHK decided that a legal STFU needed to be sent to this kid. Next time TK (again, a layperson) wants to share his opinions, he would be very well served by repeatedly stressing that they're his opinions only. Can you imagine what someone like Tony Marfione or an actually large company like KAI might do if he tried to call them out? Dude would be having to break out his kneepads to be begging for money again. I can just imagine the emotional waterworks now. 🤷


* And then you look at their feed and it's like, all cheap Chinese brand knives and it's understood that that guy was never going to buy a Hinderer anyway, so it's kind of a joke.
** The joke here is that RHK's business is searchable, where you'll find that RHK is a small business!!!!
 
ferider said:
Hinderer uses Peters who started Heat Treat in 1979 :)

(That’s the most interesting thing about all this, IMHO)
Click to expand...
This is a great point. However, Peters treats to manufacturer spec, unless I am mistaken. If the issue is the manufacturer's spec, this doesn't really change anything.

That said, this is absolutely relevant if people are only taking away from this that some idiot online has said Hinderer's HT is "garbage." Without getting too far in the weeds here, HRC is just a bellwether of HT quality to my understanding. You could have a good HT AND have the blade a little softer than ideal. FTR, my impression is that Hinderer's HT is fine, and probably better than average. FAR too much was made of a point or two of HRC.

That doesn't change that I think people are characterizing the dispute inaccurately, to my eyes. Again, just my opinion.
 
Quiet said:
He IS a layperson, which is the problem. There is literally nothing in TK's background that gives him any sort of objective authority to be calling out makers who have made a successful small business that has stood the test of time, making and selling knives. Sorry, there isn't. I don't care what research he's done, or what he's read. He's not an expert, no matter how many of his IG fanbase thinks his word is law over established makers who've actually created and maintain a successful business.

I get a feeling from your posts that you're a fan of TK, which is entirely fine. I have zero issue with you personally. However, again, I am on IG and watched all this happen when it happened, and recall all these smoothbrains on his feed and in the comments talking about "WELL I ALWAYS KNEW HINDERERS WERE TRASH!!!"* And that was a lot of them, which was the problem. This situation was gaining traction all over on IG, Facebook knife communities, on some Youtube comments, on Reddit, and a few other places I frequent. People who had no exposure to the entirety of the situation were like "What! Hinderer threatening The Little Guy (TM)**, that must mean what he said is TRUE!!!" So yeah, I understand completely why RHK decided that a legal STFU needed to be sent to this kid. Next time TK (again, a layperson) wants to share his opinions, he would be very well served by repeatedly stressing that they're his opinions only. Can you imagine what someone like Tony Marfione or an actually large company like KAI might do if he tried to call them out? Dude would be having to break out his kneepads to be begging for money again. I can just imagine the emotional waterworks now. 🤷


* And then you look at their feed and it's like, all cheap Chinese brand knives and it's understood that that guy was never going to buy a Hinderer anyway, so it's kind of a joke.
** The joke here is that RHK's business is searchable, where you'll find that RHK is a small business!!!!
Click to expand...
I don't have any issues with you either! I hope I am not coming across that way. I don't take issue with your adamancy and you and I are on civil terms.

That said, TK is not a layperson by any reasonable definition. Your benchmark for expertise (as I read it) is tangential at best, irrelevant at worst. Further, even if he is not an expert, it does not necessarily mean he is wrong (he may or may not be).

I think TK makes a good product, seems like a nice person, but is also a GD idiot. Some of his vocal followers (who's ignorance you seem to impute to TK) are far worse. I find the crybaby victim bit particularly exhausting and off putting, but it doesn't mean he is stupid or always wrong.

I think this situation is more nuanced than was being portrayed, which is why I spoke up. I can't say I am confident it was the right decision, but I am doing my best to tell the truth as I see it.
 
SCTorrero said:
I don't have any issues with you either! I hope I am not coming across that way. I don't take issue with your adamancy and you and I are on civil terms.

That said, TK is not a layperson by any reasonable definition. Your benchmark for expertise (as I read it) is tangential at best, irrelevant at worst. Further, even if he is not an expert, it does not necessarily mean he is wrong (he may or may not be).

I think TK makes a good product, seems like a nice person, but is also a GD idiot. Some of his vocal followers (who's ignorance you seem to impute to TK) are far worse. I find the crybaby victim bit particularly exhausting and off putting, but it doesn't mean he is stupid or always wrong.

I think this situation is more nuanced than was being portrayed, which is why I spoke up. I can't say I am confident it was the right decision, but I am doing my best to tell the truth as I see it.
Click to expand...
In my opinion, TK needs to come through with some legit credentials before trashing a well established and long standing maker such as RHK.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top