Hinderer heat treats

[knarfeng]

Hey everyone! So I'm very well aware that there has been a buzz over the past 2 years or so about how Hinderer and other companies lie about there hrc of there blades I've actually been saddened to hear that lying about hrc is very common among many brands b

BS in my book.
A few years ago I had access to a Rockwell tester. It was fully calibrated, as it was in our engineering lab. The chief metallurgist was a friend and he allowed me access. I tested knives from Spyderco, Benchmade, Buck and others, then compared the results to the manufacturer's spec for that steel. Out of over a dozen knives, none was out of spec.

Common that manjor US manufacturers lie? BS.

 

[jbmonkey]

I don't have any issues with you either! I hope I am not coming across that way. I don't take issue with your adamancy and you and I are on civil terms.

That said, TK is not a layperson by any reasonable definition. Your benchmark for expertise (as I read it) is tangential at best, irrelevant at worst. Further, even if he is not an expert, it does not necessarily mean he is wrong (he may or may not be).

I think TK makes a good product, seems like a nice person, but is also a GD idiot. Some of his vocal followers (who's ignorance you seem to impute to TK) are far worse. I find the crybaby victim bit particularly exhausting and off putting, but it doesn't mean he is stupid or always wrong.

I think this situation is more nuanced than was being portrayed, which is why I spoke up. I can't say I am confident it was the right decision, but I am doing my best to tell the truth as I see it.

I watched that whole thing unfold....I saw it the way Quiet described it. I'd call how he described it as accurate and true.

 

[knarfeng]

That being said, all Rockwell readings are +/- 1 when measured across more than one machine. That's because the standards to which Rockwell machines are calibrated are +/- 0.5. So if it's off by a point, that could easily be due to useing two different machiens.

 

[hangmanshammer]

Personally, I think the idea of bashing a competitor for any reason is ridiculous. Make your own product and do it better and customers will follow, very simple

 

[SCTorrero]

That being said, all Rockwell readings are +/- 1 when measured across more than one machine. That's because the standards to which Rockwell machines are calibrated are +/- 0.5. So if it's off by a point, that could easily be due to useing two different machiens.

Agreed. I should note that the knife at issue was within specifications. I am making up numbers here, but if Hinderer's spec is 59-61, the knife was 58.7 or something.

This doesn't change your very accurate point.

I also completely respect that others may have a different take on what transpired.

 

[ferider]

S45vn inb4 C&D

View attachment 2239947

Thanks !

On a side note (and the owner of a few Hinderers): this is how it’s done. Present data, let readers judge.

 

[coolbreezy37]

Personally, I think the idea of bashing a competitor for any reason is ridiculous. Make your own product and do it better and customers will follow, very simple

The big issue is that TK isn’t even on the same radar as RHK. Not even close to being in the same fantasy league. I think TK did this for internet clout. Failed miserably, I might add.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Ok, ok…I’ll fold. In order to figure this all out once and for all, I will do everyone a favor. Send me your RHK knives and I will put them through a one month hard use test. I’ll let you know if your knife held up and will be returned to you.

You are welcome.

 

[tony281sc2]

That being said, all Rockwell readings are +/- 1 when measured across more than one machine. That's because the standards to which Rockwell machines are calibrated are +/- 0.5. So if it's off by a point, that could easily be due to useing two different machiens.

Wow, I didn’t know that, or ever really think of it to be honest. So if someone complains they have a 58.8 for example, it might actually be closer to 60…?
Guess that’s why there’s more to it than just the numbers, and why I trust the manufacturers….

On a side note, WE advertises their coated 20CV at 58-60, and I never hear of people complaining about them. Probably because they are THIN knives, and therefore will always “outcut” a thicker knife at the same hardness. Geometry and blade stock thickness are definitely underrated as far as how the knife will actually perform in real life, whether you want a slicer or an overbuilt tank.

 

[Quiet]

This is a great point. However, Peters treats to manufacturer spec, unless I am mistaken. If the issue is the manufacturer's spec, this doesn't really change anything.

That said, this is absolutely relevant if people are only taking away from this that some idiot online has said Hinderer's HT is "garbage." Without getting too far in the weeds here, HRC is just a bellwether of HT quality to my understanding. You could have a good HT AND have the blade a little softer than ideal. FTR, my impression is that Hinderer's HT is fine, and probably better than average. FAR too much was made of a point or two of HRC.

That doesn't change that I think people are characterizing the dispute inaccurately, to my eyes. Again, just my opinion.

I'm not really sure what else could have been inferred, since this is exactly what happened.

 

[Quiet]

I don't have any issues with you either! I hope I am not coming across that way. I don't take issue with your adamancy and you and I are on civil terms.

That said, TK is not a layperson by any reasonable definition. Your benchmark for expertise (as I read it) is tangential at best, irrelevant at worst. Further, even if he is not an expert, it does not necessarily mean he is wrong (he may or may not be).

I think TK makes a good product, seems like a nice person, but is also a GD idiot. Some of his vocal followers (who's ignorance you seem to impute to TK) are far worse. I find the crybaby victim bit particularly exhausting and off putting, but it doesn't mean he is stupid or always wrong.

I think this situation is more nuanced than was being portrayed, which is why I spoke up. I can't say I am confident it was the right decision, but I am doing my best to tell the truth as I see it.

I would argue that he is, given that he has not been employed as a subject matter expert by any metallurgy or knife making concern of substance that I'm aware of. I don't recall hearing or reading of any advanced degree or academic achievement or certification. As far as I can tell, he's watched a lot of Youtube videos, read some books, talked to some people, and has decided* that this gave him objective credibility worth enough to try to call out one of the big guys. As you can probably see, that has failed horribly. As an example for you, I am degreed and accredited as a subject matter expert in my field (Cybersecurity) and have over 20 years of experience doing the actual job. Anyone could look at my credentials and experience and understand "This guy proooooobably knows what he's talking about". TK has no such credible backing, to my understanding.

In point of fact, I was at BLADE Atlanta last year, and I recall multiple people coming up to RHK's table to tell him they were understanding of his side of that situation, and that "Instagram idiot" needed to #$% off. Couldn't say I disagreed. RHK seemed almost chagrined by the entire thing.

And in the end, Hinderer still sells every knife they make, and dudebro is still holding down his spot at Mom's house. So, all is well in the world and people have gotten what they deserved in this matter.



* And further, his idiot fanbase has agreed

 

[SCTorrero]

I'm not really sure what else could have been inferred, since this is exactly what happened.

If you say so. It seems some people in this thread agree with you. It seems others have a different version of events.

If you want to be incredulous about reality, that's up to you. Unless you think people in this thread are lying about their impressions, I am not sure how you can plausibly make the claim you are making here.

 

[Quiet]

If you say so. It seems some people in this thread agree with you. It seems others have a different version of events.

If you want to be incredulous about reality, that's up to you. Unless you think people in this thread are lying about their impressions, I am not sure how you can plausibly make the claim you are making here.

I am aware that some folks will disagree, and I'm going to say that it's because they dislike Rick Hinderer (which hey, is entirely valid). Some folks think or thought that it's a bad look for RHK to have sent a cease and desist letter, but I will state that those folks think that because they don't own a small business who started getting dragged through the mud by an absolute no one who used a small legion of fans to amplify their message. A small business lives or dies on thin margins. Rick Hinderer isn't rich. He has something like ten or eleven employees. That's ten or eleven people who get to eat hot food tonight, and have a warm dry place for themselves and their families to sleep because a significant number of knife enthusiasts understand Rick Hinderer knives to be quality knives worth paying the prices he asks. Somebody attempting to cosplay as a SME (like Mommy's House Blades (TM) did) who then tries to act as though they know better than RHK how they should be making their product could actually hurt RHK's sales if he was allowed to keep opening his dumper long enough. That's why RHK had the letter sent.

You and those folks here who disagree are free to do so, but I maintain that you'd have a sharply different view of you ever found yourself in RHK's shoes in a situation like he was in.

 

[Quiet]

Tell you what, hold on.

 

[Quiet]

Here's a post I made in a now-locked thread that happened back around the time the letter was sent.

"Seriously, this whole thing is like me going to a local bakery, not liking their bread because it doesn't taste great to me personally then running home and blowing that place up on my local area food blog where I throw out some credentials about how I'm a huge bread nerd who just "wants it done right*" and this bakery is doing it wrong, where all my bum-ass followers immediately jump in the comments like "I NEVER liked that place, I'm sure not going there now!!!" Then I get a letter from the Bakery's legal representative calling me out for calling them out, and I run back to my followers like "Why is this bakery after me??!??!? I JUST CARE ABOUT IT BEING DONE RIGHT!!!!"

See how ridiculous this all is?"

Still holds true. This is what happened. A garage hobbyist attempted to state that one of the leading companies in our industry/hobby does their knives "wrong"....all on his say so. If you don't agree that that's laughable, then I really don't know what to tell you. People design knives for all sorts of uses, and have a variety of variables they bake into the product. TK seems only to care about ultra high HRC and super thin behind the edge blades. RHK has a very different philosophy, and that philosophy isn't wrong just because garage kid says so.

 

[SCTorrero]

I would argue that he is, given that he has not been employed as a subject matter expert by any metallurgy or knife making concern of substance that I'm aware of. I don't recall hearing or reading of any advanced degree or academic achievement or certification. As far as I can tell, he's watched a lot of Youtube videos, read some books, talked to some people, and has decided* that this gave him objective credibility worth enough to try to call out one of the big guys. As you can probably see, that has failed horribly. As an example for you, I am degreed and accredited as a subject matter expert in my field (Cybersecurity) and have over 20 years of experience doing the actual job. Anyone could look at my credentials and experience and understand "This guy proooooobably knows what he's talking about". TK has no such credible backing, to my understanding.

In point of fact, I was at BLADE Atlanta last year, and I recall multiple people coming up to RHK's table to tell him they were understanding of his side of that situation, and that "Instagram idiot" needed to #$% off. Couldn't say I disagreed. RHK seemed almost chagrined by the entire thing.

And in the end, Hinderer still sells every knife they make, and dudebro is still holding down his spot at Mom's house. So, all is well in the world and people have gotten what they deserved in this matter.



* And further, his idiot fanbase has agreed

If TK is not a subject matter expert on blade making, there are very few in existence anywhere. This does not mean he is always right. No, he doesn't have a doctorate in metallurgy to my knowledge. He has probably watched a lot of YouTube videos, and read some books. In lieu of formal education, this seems a reasonable way to (partially) develop expertise. He has also been heat treating and grinding his own blades for years. Perhaps his business is not as established as others, but I don't understand how one can say he has not developed hands on experience. Are there others more qualified? Of course. But he isn't a know-nothing off the street. Your insistence on portraying him this way is baffling.

 

[Quiet]

If TK is not a subject matter expert on blade making, there are very few in existence anywhere. This does not mean he is always right. No, he doesn't have a doctorate in metallurgy to my knowledge. He has probably watched a lot of YouTube videos, and read some books. In lieu of formal education, this seems a reasonable way to (partially) develop expertise. He has also been heat treating and grinding his own blades for years. Perhaps his business is not as established as others, but I don't understand how one can say he has not developed hands on experience. Are there others more qualified? Of course. But he isn't a know-nothing off the street. Your insistence on portraying him this way is baffling.

At this point, I understand that you and I have a very different definition of what a SME is. I know concretely that TK isn't. If that baffles you, as politely as I can say it, that sounds like a you problem.

If he was a respected expert, people would know who he is and he'd be selling product at scale. Instead, he's just known primarily in the knife game as that idiot who called out RHK and got slapped in the mouth.

 

[Blues]

Guys, do you mind if we stop going in circles now? You've made your cases and it's getting redundant.

Maybe someone can send their RHKs out to someone who can do an independent test if they have that much invested in the controversy. (I'm not sending mine.)

I've heard the same rumors about the steel being soft...but when I've sharpened or touched up any of mine, the feel on the stone is commensurate with what I'd expect, as is the performance. That said, I haven't done cutting tests.

 

[Quiet]

Guys, do you mind if we stop going in circles now? You've made your cases and it's getting redundant.

Maybe someone can send their RHKs out to someone who can do an independent test if they have that much invested in the controversy. (I'm not sending mine.)

I've heard the same rumors about the steel being soft...but when I've sharpened or touched up any of mine, the feel on the stone is commensurate with what I'd expect, as is the performance. That said, I haven't done cutting tests.

Yessir, agree completely. Also, no way am I sending any of mine to get nubbins poked in 'em. They cut just fine, from my experience!

 

[SCTorrero]

I am aware that some folks will disagree, and I'm going to say that it's because they dislike Rick Hinderer (which hey, is entirely valid). Some folks think or thought that it's a bad look for RHK to have sent a cease and desist letter, but I will state that those folks think that because they don't own a small business who started getting dragged through the mud by an absolute no one who used a small legion of fans to amplify their message. A small business lives or dies on thin margins. Rick Hinderer isn't rich. He has something like ten or eleven employees. That's ten or eleven people who get to eat hot food tonight, and have a warm dry place for themselves and their families to sleep because a significant number of knife enthusiasts understand Rick Hinderer knives to be quality knives worth paying the prices he asks. Somebody attempting to cosplay as a SME (like Mommy's House Blades (TM) did) who then tries to act as though they know better than RHK how they should be making their product could actually hurt RHK's sales if he was allowed to keep opening his dumper long enough. That's why RHK had the letter sent.

You and those folks here who disagree are free to do so, but I maintain that you'd have a sharply different view of you ever found yourself in RHK's shoes in a situation like he was in.

Whether TK's actions could have unintended consequences is a separate question. I am not really speaking about what he should have done, but what happened. I don't really like defending the guy; I was only trying to dispel some inaccuracies in this thread.

Further, I think your take on what happened is wrong. I think it is more accurate to say TK felt Hinderer knew better, but chose a more profitable path (essentially, that the HT decision was one based on business, not cutting performance). That is to say, the accusation leveled was about business practices, not knowledge. This, of course, is a matter of interpretation. Again, I am not saying TK was correct to do what he did.

You citing yourself as an authority is...something. But if you say you know concretely, I guess that's the end of it.