Hope Simon will do the right thing?

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I understand the buyer asked that the item be shipped to a U.S. address.

Under U.S. law and International Law (International Commerce Terms ["Incoterms"), when the item arrived at that address, the risk of loss thereafter at all stages was on the buyer.

On return shipping, the risk of loss was with the buyer until delivered to the seller.

. . . unless the buyer and seller mutually and expressly agreed otherwise as part of the sale agreement.
 
T.A.DAVISON said:
Here are the photos of the knife now.
If Simon will send me an address to send the knife back to him, I will apologize and we can be done with this.

What happened to the knife when shipped back - I do not know.

I hope you are an honorable man Simon - sorry for all the trouble and saying you tried to scam me.

Lets end this and move on- lessons learned on both sides.


You can see the small scratches across scales and what ever small gap? he was not satisfied with.
The problems really could not be fixed with out rebuilding the knife. So that is why I offered the money first and then asked if he would like another knife for free.

1232S3.jpg

1232S2.jpg

1232S4.jpg

1232S5.jpg


I never claim to build the perfect knife and I probably never will - I just make the best knives I can.

That's all.
Click to expand...

I've dealt with being a perfectionist all of my life. I beat myself up over the tiniest things when I am building something. I'm 53 years old Todd, and it took me almost that long to actually accept the fact that there is no such thing as perfect.

In full disclosure I have never owned one of your knives, but have drooled over many pictures of knives you had for sale, or that others had commissioned and posted pictures when they got their knife.
You do great work, and it shows that you take pride in the knives you build. I've looked at the posted pictures and cannot see the gap that the OP is talking about...

Pictures can be very deceiving but when I really studied the knife, it appears in the picture that there may be a very small amount of difference in the clearance between the blade and bolster on one side...
Gap ? No... Flaw ? No...

YMMV of course
 
Thomas Linton said:
I understand the buyer asked that the item be shipped to a U.S. address.

Under U.S. law and International Law (International Commerce Terms ["Incoterms"), when the item arrived at that address, the risk of loss thereafter at all stages was on the buyer.

On return shipping, the risk of loss was with the buyer until delivered to the seller.

. . . unless the buyer and seller mutually and expressly agreed otherwise as part of the sale agreement.
Click to expand...

Simon, I think that you are a good guy. The fact that you are sticking around and trying to answer all posts tells me that you have honorable intentions.

I do think, however, because you provided a U.S. shipping address to the seller, you assume all responsibility for the knife once it arrived at the address that you provided. Once it got there, the sellers obligation had been fulfilled. If I bought a knife and had it shipped to my buddies house and then had my buddy ship it to me in Australia, is the seller responsible for the second shipment? Especially if he was completely unaware of it? Without a doubt in my mind, the honorable thing to do here is to accept the knife and go after the shipping service for the damages. If you do that, your name will be good with me.

Edit to add: Unless we are dealing with a true low life scammer here, we have to assume that the shipping company caused the damage, The only avenue left is to go to the shipping service for compensation. Hopefully the package was insured, which I think we know what the answer to that is.
 
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This is from Wikipedia, and should explain to a greater extent...

The psychology of "face".

The psychological face makes a still more fascinating study. It is not a face that can be washed or shaved, but a face that can be "granted" and "lost" and "fought for" and "presented as a gift". Here we arrive at the most curious point of Chinese social psychology. Abstract and intangible, it is yet the most delicate standard by which Chinese social intercourse is regulated.

Lin refers to liu mianzi 留面子 "grant face; give (someone) a chance to regain lost honor", shī miàn zi 失面子 "lose face", zheng mianzi 爭面子 "fight for face; keeping up with the Joneses", and gei mianzi 給面子 "give face; show respect (for someone's feelings)".

The Chinese language has three common words meaning "face":

mian (Chinese: 面; pinyin: miàn; Wade–Giles: mien)
lian (simplified Chinese: 脸; traditional Chinese: 臉; pinyin: liǎn; Wade–Giles: lien)
yan (simplified Chinese: 颜; traditional Chinese: 顏; pinyin: yán; Wade–Giles: yen).

Mian 面 "face; personal esteem; countenance; surface; side" occurs in words like:

mianzi 面子 "face; side; reputation; self-respect; prestige, honor; social standing"
mianmu 面目 (lit. "face and eyes") "face; appearance; respect; social standing; prestige; honor"
mianpi 面皮 (lit. "face skin") "facial skin; complexion; feelings; sensitivity; sense of shame"
timian 体面 (lit. "body face") "face; good looking; honor; dignity; prestige"
qingmian 情面 (lit. "feelings face") "face; prestige; favor; kindness; partiality"

Mianmu, which occurs in the Shijing, Guanzi, and other Chinese classics, is the oldest Chinese word for figurative "face" (Carr 1992:43). David Yau-fai Ho (1974:241) describes timian as "an expression without an exact equivalent in English", meaning "the social front, the ostensible display of one's social standing to the public. It is both a prerogative and an implicit obligation for the socially prominent to be particular about." Mianzi is a measurable and quantifiable concept of "face". Hsien-chin Hu says it,

can be borrowed, struggled for, added to, padded, — all terms indicating a gradual increase in volume. It is built up through initial high position, wealth, power, ability, through cleverly establishing social ties to a number of prominent people, as well as through avoidance of acts that would cause unfavorable comment. (1944:61)

Lian 臉 "face; countenance; respect; reputation; prestige" is seen in several "face" words:

lianshang 臉上 (lit. "face on/above") "one's face; honor; respect"
lianmian 臉面 (lit. "face face") "face; self-respect; prestige; influence"
lianpi 臉皮 (lit. "face skin") "face; sensitivity; compassion"

Hu (1944:51-52) contrasts meiyou lian 沒有臉 (lit. "without face") "audacious; wanton; shameless" as "the most severe condemnation that can be made of a person" and buyao lian 不要臉 (lit. "don't want face") "shameless; selfishly inconsiderate" as "a serious accusation meaning that ego does not care what society thinks of his character, that he is ready to obtain benefits for himself in defiance of moral standards."

I could not live in China because I don't give a damn, but you have to understand that their entire society is built on this.

If a woman is a whore in China, so be it...but if you CALL her a whore in public? She will try to kill you.

Does this make sense to everyone? I don't even want to tell you what happens if you pat a Filipino adult male on the head, but it isn't good.;):D:grumpy:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks STeven for your remark here.

if this case in public sue somebody if the defendent is innocent himself. He have to answer and sue the prosecutor back to win the name back. But how about now?

I have to accept this outcomes as seller apologized and I have to carry my name go on? There are so many misunderstanding between the seller and myself. I tried to clear it. Not just no reply. It is frustrating that we have to communicate like this in the cost my name among all these suspicious gaze and ban from other makers, sellers and dealers. How can I accept this?
 
At this point the best thing you can do for your reputation on this forum is to engage in more deals in which - learning from this incident - you make sure to be as scrupulous and responsible as possible, so that you demonstrate your good character by action. In the culture of this forum that is what matters. There is no other recourse or solution which will have any real positive impact on your reputation here.
 
I said to Todd that I like it so much. Look at the back spring all through to tip of the blade. It worth 800 if the bolster is not bending out I think?
 
snippy said:
I see the gap quite clearly in this picture.

Eric
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I agree..the picture seems to show a small gap that wasn't present in the first picture, or possibly was but was just MUCH smaller. At some point I recall reading something about scratches on the tip of the blade....makes it seem like this issue was infact caused by third party shipping or other handlers because that sounds like maybe someone stabbed the knife into a table or other object and pulled it to one side with a lot of force when removing. Similar to prying I imagine that while Mr Davison makes a VERY nice knive, that it isn't meant to be torqued to one side and have all that stress put on the pivot and back spring area...

that's just the way the damage looks to me. I've done that to a cheap knife or two in my time and the damage is similar (not saying that Mr davisons knives are cheap, but the results should be similar regardless.)
 
I don't know if the gap was there originally or something happend along the way like has been speculated. However, I do think the maker made a wonderful attempt to resolve it and made a very generous offer before it got to this point. In fact you would have been far ahead had you accepted the offer. It was very odd to turn it down. In any case, all these different shippers and addresses, repackaging, customs, too many people are involved with a transaction like this. I would stay far away from this type of sale, not worth the aggravation.
 
^ excellent post summarizing everything that has been said thus far.

I think the only thing left is to hear what the final resolve is between Todd and Simonxm which from the sounds of it is: Todd wants an address to send Simonxm the knife back. It's beyond repair and now beyond a refund or a new knife that Simonxm repeatedly refused and has now publicly stated that he doesn't want a refund.

Sounds like it's back in the hands of the seller and buyer.
 
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Yes, the gap was there when he got it. You can also see it in Todd's pics, but it doesn't show as well in those because of the strong lighting on a shiny object.

One of my custom slipjoints has a gap in the backspring as well, but it is a simple shadow pattern so it doesn't bother me one bit.
But if I got a custom with Mammoth Ivory and bolster I'm not sure I would be happy with a gap like that either. I don't think I would send it back, but I'm not really sure. I definitely wouldn't like it on a knife that fine.

At this point the buyer does not want the knife back. I doubt he will ever want a knife from someone that put a scammer label on him when that was not his intent. Yes, he should have taken another knife at half price, but I think he was afraid it could have a problem too, and it cost a lot to get a knife into his country just to find out. He just wanted a refund.

If Customs or the shipping service hadn't damaged the knife on the way back this wouldn't have been a problem. Had the knife not had a gap this wouldn't have been a problem.

I'm thinking he didn't feel he should pay the insurance since the knife had a problem. But I think he should've paid it anyway, or asked Todd too. Maybe they could've split that cost.
There were definitely some communication problems, as there often are in these case's.

If Todd, I think I would issue a refund and sell the knife for $300 less than original price. That would be the same(money wise) as giving the buyer $300 back which he was offering to do. Todd would have to fool with reselling the knife, but the money would be the same. I would do that just to end this and be done with it.

If Todd, I would also never ship abroad again. If I was a maker I don't think I would. To many things could happen to a knife that goes through Customs and/or a shipping service.
Then again, how was Todd supposed to know it was going abroad since he was given a US address ???
The buyer should've maid it clear that it would be going through a shipping service to get to China.
 
Kohai999 said:
This is from Wikipedia, and should explain to a greater extent...

The psychology of "face".

The psychological face makes a still more fascinating study. It is not a face that can be washed or shaved, but a face that can be "granted" and "lost" and "fought for" and "presented as a gift". Here we arrive at the most curious point of Chinese social psychology. Abstract and intangible, it is yet the most delicate standard by which Chinese social intercourse is regulated.

Lin refers to liu mianzi 留面子 "grant face; give (someone) a chance to regain lost honor", shī miàn zi 失面子 "lose face", zheng mianzi 爭面子 "fight for face; keeping up with the Joneses", and gei mianzi 給面子 "give face; show respect (for someone's feelings)".

The Chinese language has three common words meaning "face":

mian (Chinese: 面; pinyin: miàn; Wade–Giles: mien)
lian (simplified Chinese: 脸; traditional Chinese: 臉; pinyin: liǎn; Wade–Giles: lien)
yan (simplified Chinese: 颜; traditional Chinese: 顏; pinyin: yán; Wade–Giles: yen).

Mian 面 "face; personal esteem; countenance; surface; side" occurs in words like:

mianzi 面子 "face; side; reputation; self-respect; prestige, honor; social standing"
mianmu 面目 (lit. "face and eyes") "face; appearance; respect; social standing; prestige; honor"
mianpi 面皮 (lit. "face skin") "facial skin; complexion; feelings; sensitivity; sense of shame"
timian 体面 (lit. "body face") "face; good looking; honor; dignity; prestige"
qingmian 情面 (lit. "feelings face") "face; prestige; favor; kindness; partiality"

Mianmu, which occurs in the Shijing, Guanzi, and other Chinese classics, is the oldest Chinese word for figurative "face" (Carr 1992:43). David Yau-fai Ho (1974:241) describes timian as "an expression without an exact equivalent in English", meaning "the social front, the ostensible display of one's social standing to the public. It is both a prerogative and an implicit obligation for the socially prominent to be particular about." Mianzi is a measurable and quantifiable concept of "face". Hsien-chin Hu says it,

can be borrowed, struggled for, added to, padded, — all terms indicating a gradual increase in volume. It is built up through initial high position, wealth, power, ability, through cleverly establishing social ties to a number of prominent people, as well as through avoidance of acts that would cause unfavorable comment. (1944:61)

Lian 臉 "face; countenance; respect; reputation; prestige" is seen in several "face" words:

lianshang 臉上 (lit. "face on/above") "one's face; honor; respect"
lianmian 臉面 (lit. "face face") "face; self-respect; prestige; influence"
lianpi 臉皮 (lit. "face skin") "face; sensitivity; compassion"

Hu (1944:51-52) contrasts meiyou lian 沒有臉 (lit. "without face") "audacious; wanton; shameless" as "the most severe condemnation that can be made of a person" and buyao lian 不要臉 (lit. "don't want face") "shameless; selfishly inconsiderate" as "a serious accusation meaning that ego does not care what society thinks of his character, that he is ready to obtain benefits for himself in defiance of moral standards."

I could not live in China because I don't give a damn, but you have to understand that their entire society is built on this.

If a woman is a whore in China, so be it...but if you CALL her a whore in public? She will try to kill you.

Does this make sense to everyone? I don't even want to tell you what happens if you pat a Filipino adult male on the head, but it isn't good.;):D:grumpy:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Steven
I understand and respect what you are saying. Here in the southern u.s we call a spade a spade. This is our way.
 
simonxm said:
http://yun.baidu.com/share/link?shareid=1913399141&uk=1564182540
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Simon-

There are a few issues with achieving perfection to the level I think you are wanting. The gap is being magnified by the way Todd blends the surfaces together, raising some microbur in the process. The bolster doesn't look bent to me, it just looks like the burr is of varying size.
Rick is definitely right, there does need to be some room for the mechanism to actually work. I would wager that I couldn't get a .003in shim in the gap you are referencing. Mating surfaces in metal are a difficult thing to achieve perfection as any imperfection will be magnified with light, and in this case, lack of light. Especially on anything with a highly polished surface.(light reflecting off of and through mating surfaces). Using macro mode on a camera to capture it, certainly illustrates your point much better..You will have to remember that anything under magnification will look ugly.

Anything can be done for a price and for many knifemakers, what you are wanting is probably going to cost much more than what you paid..I would venture to say about 2-3x

I don't think you are a scammer, but I do think that your expectations are a little unreasonable. Even if the gap were perfect, a gap will appear with use. As with all things, nature as well as physics takes what it needs. No more and no less.

I hope both parties can solve this :)
 
Jsega51 said:
^ excellent post summarizing everything that has been said thus far.

I think the only thing left is to hear what the final resolve is between Todd and Simonxm which from the sounds of it is: Todd wants an address to send Simonxm the knife back. It's beyond repair and now beyond a refund or a new knife that Simonxm repeatedly refused and has now publicly stated that he doesn't want a refund.

Sounds like it's back in the hands of the seller and buyer.
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Sorry. I know the rules to return the knife in the condition it was shipped. I never had a reply with explanation of why Todd did not reply me.

All the people here seem to be thinking turn down a offer of 800 for 2 Davison's knives are either mad or stupid. But can you accept a reluctant offer? You may, I may not! I want to be fair.

Can I just walk away from this after so many accuses with refund or with knife? It makes me suck an idiot acting and explaining why I'm so stupid to turn down and want a refund?

This is for Rick. Todd supposed to be a best value knife maker and 800 supposed to be a top line knife. It was a hard decision whether go for this one or for a halfrich, Hoel knife from a dealer. But proofed bad choice made.

I had bought few from dealer and here from forum and no such issue.

This is a hair line gap here but it does looks clear on the back when you appreciate the other side of bolster or whole back of the knife. It was such a polite ask to the seller about whether it is normal to a 800 dollar Davison knife. I do not think I was expecting too much. Have you ever seen many of other Davison's knives? Are they having any of these imperfection?
 
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