How do traditionals compare to a Sebenza?

[RedLynx]

Dave,

Now there's a custom that looks good but also looks very simple and minimalist. Something that I would never guess was expensive.

 

[B.F.U]

I have been watching this thread, as it's something I think about often. I didn't want to reply, as I knew I'd have a lot to say, and I have more important things I should be working on. But here it is:

First, I like the video. I think you explained it pretty well.

In regard directly to the Sebenza, I didn't like it. I tried an Umnumzaan and a Sebenza. Neither were impressively smooth. Neither were more solid feeling than other frame lock knives. I don't think that a $420 Sebenza is over twice the knife as a $200 Zero Tolerance 0560. My 0560 is more solid, much smoother, and just as well machined as far as I can tell. Heck, my $80 Spyderco Native is as or nearly as smooth as my Sebenza was. So I guess I'm saying that I was all around pretty underwhelmed by the Chris Reeve knives I've had.

However, I am a fan of modern knives. I carry a modern knife pretty much as often as a traditional. I appreciate modern materials, like titanium or g10 or FRN handles and Elmax or s30v steel. I enjoy flippers, cause they're cool. I also have found in working with animals and on the water, clips and one hand opening/closing are extremely useful.

Still, in normal use I more often reach for my traditional. I think that is because they do have a "soul" or unique character. There's not another TC Charlow single sheepfoot in smooth ivory bone that looks exactly like mine in this world. I think because of the character they have, traditionals are less likely to cause a stir than moderns. I've used traditionals in my college cafeterias with no issue, whereas I'd be very hesitant to whip out a modern knife to open up the air intake on my coffee cup. That brings me to another point, I think traditional knives are more suited to normal people usage than many moderns. The 0560, for example, is an awesome knife that excels in rough work like cutting thick plastic and such but that's not what the majority of my cutting needs are. I just need a nice smaller knife to open up the air intake of a coffee cup, or finish the cut of a sushi roll, or open an envelope.

With that said, I strongly disagree with the assertion that we should accept flaws in functioning on traditionals. I would absolutely send back a ~$100 GEC if it had significant gaps, cracks, grind, or spring problems.

So basically, I think you have to find the value range in which you are most comfortable for either type of knife. For me, it is $60-$110 for traditionals and $100-$200 for moderns. That's not to say I don't like or want knives outside those ranges, it's just where most of my interests are.

 

[stabman]

I'm fingering my Benchmade 761 right now.

I don't do that to knives.

 

[@LeathermanGX]

I have been watching this thread, as it's something I think about often. I didn't want to reply, as I knew I'd have a lot to say, and I have more important things I should be working on. But here it is:

First, I like the video. I think you explained it pretty well.

In regard directly to the Sebenza, I didn't like it. I tried an Umnumzaan and a Sebenza. Neither were impressively smooth. Neither were more solid feeling than other frame lock knives. I don't think that a $420 Sebenza is over twice the knife as a $200 Zero Tolerance 0560. My 0560 is more solid, much smoother, and just as well machined as far as I can tell. Heck, my $80 Spyderco Native is as or nearly as smooth as my Sebenza was. So I guess I'm saying that I was all around pretty underwhelmed by the Chris Reeve knives I've had.

However, I am a fan of modern knives. I carry a modern knife pretty much as often as a traditional. I appreciate modern materials, like titanium or g10 or FRN handles and Elmax or s30v steel. I enjoy flippers, cause they're cool. I also have found in working with animals and on the water, clips and one hand opening/closing are extremely useful.

Still, in normal use I more often reach for my traditional. I think that is because they do have a "soul" or unique character. There's not another TC Charlow single sheepfoot in smooth ivory bone that looks exactly like mine in this world. I think because of the character they have, traditionals are less likely to cause a stir than moderns. I've used traditionals in my college cafeterias with no issue, whereas I'd be very hesitant to whip out a modern knife to open up the air intake on my coffee cup. That brings me to another point, I think traditional knives are more suited to normal people usage than many moderns. The 0560, for example, is an awesome knife that excels in rough work like cutting thick plastic and such but that's not what the majority of my cutting needs are. I just need a nice smaller knife to open up the air intake of a coffee cup, or finish the cut of a sushi roll, or open an envelope.

With that said, I strongly disagree with the assertion that we should accept flaws in functioning on traditionals. I would absolutely send back a ~$100 GEC if it had significant gaps, cracks, grind, or spring problems.

So basically, I think you have to find the value range in which you are most comfortable for either type of knife. For me, it is $60-$110 for traditionals and $100-$200 for moderns. That's not to say I don't like or want knives outside those ranges, it's just where most of my interests are.

Well said. Better than anything I can say. :thumbup:

 

[@LeathermanGX]

I don't do that to knives.

You're only lying to yourself.

 

[leghog]

I like bicycles, but I think a better comparison might be your Ferrari against an old pickup truck.

Yeah, try hauling top soil or lumber or moving a piece of furniture with a Ferrari. Takes the truck to do real work.

And that's what knives are, real working tools for real work. Otherwise they are just fancy pocket litter/man jewelry. I've known too many who carry what they consider a "Ferrari" in their pocket and are loathe to use it for what it really is, a working tool. If that's the case, why even carry it?

So I guess only traditionals can do hard work?

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

There are traditional slipjoints that are "Ferraris" whose owners are loathe to use them as the working tools they were designed and made as. And again, if that's the case, why even carry it?

 

[B.F.U]

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

There are traditional slipjoints that are "Ferraris" whose owners are loathe to use them as the working tools they were designed and made as. And again, if that's the case, why even carry it?

I think a great example of this is the TC Barlows. People get really, really, really excited over the traditional parameters of what is and isn't a barlow, all the while they buy these modern barlows for very high prices and then don't use them much (many not at all) when it seems the most traditional characteristic of a barlow was its place as an inexpensive beater knife. Now, I'm not criticizing those people, as I have a TC I don't use much and there's nothing wrong with wanting a knife just to enjoy it as a collection piece, but I think it does produce a sort of irony when people claim that traditionals are the only real worker knives. A traditional is great as a working knife or as a collecting piece and I have some of both type, as I think many of us on the traditional sub forum do.

If you wanted one modern and one traditional knife for pure work efficiency, you'd buy an Ontario Rat 1 and a Case Peanut (or the like). We buy expensive knives, both modern and traditional, because we like them and decide that they are worth the asking price. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[leghog]

I know a lady whose son works for Chris Reeve Knives. She carries and uses a Case Trapper I gave her vs the Sebenza her son gave here. A knife really isn't a knife if you won't use it.

In an interview, Jimmy Lile once lamented people not using his knives. He made them for work/as tools. He appreciated seeing his knives worn and well used. Though they were Ferraris, more than anyone, knew them to be tools for reral work first.

 

[leghog]

I think a great example of this is the TC Barlows. People get really, really, really excited over the traditional parameters of what is and isn't a barlow, all the while they buy these modern barlows for very high prices and then don't use them much (many not at all) when it seems the most traditional characteristic of a barlow was its place as an inexpensive beater knife. Now, I'm not criticizing those people, as I have a TC I don't use much and there's nothing wrong with wanting a knife just to enjoy it as a collection piece, but I think it does produce a sort of irony when people claim that traditionals are the only real worker knives. A traditional is great as a working knife or as a collecting piece and I have some of both type, as I think many of us on the traditional sub forum do.

If you wanted one modern and one traditional knife for pure work efficiency, you'd buy an Ontario Rat 1 and a Case Peanut (or the like). We buy expensive knives, both modern and traditional, because we like them and decide that they are worth the asking price. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Look at some of the hand made offerings in traditional knives too. They're also Ferraris.

 

[okbohn]

With that said, I strongly disagree with the assertion that we should accept flaws in functioning on traditionals. I would absolutely send back a ~$100 GEC if it had significant gaps, cracks, grind, or spring problems.

Just to be clear, I am not saying we should accept sloppy workmanship. I am just saying that in the design of slip joints, they make decisions like intentionally grinding a blade off center so it fits into the frame.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Perfect opportunity to request a Chris Reeve slipjoint!

 

[B.F.U]

Just to be clear, I am not saying we should accept sloppy workmanship. I am just saying that in the design of slip joints, they make decisions like intentionally grinding a blade off center so it fits into the frame.

Oh, I didn't think you were saying that at all. You were very clear, and I actually think the eneven grinds or crinked blades of a multibladed knife are signs of quality. I have just heard it said several times on the forum that gaps and cracks are to be expected, or overlooked, and I disagree with that.

 

[155440]

Excellent video, I rather enjoyed your charisma.

I tend to only carry traditional knives due to New Jersey soccer moms crashing their minivans at the site of a pocket clip. The only non traditional knife I would feel comfortable carrying is my Spyderco ukpk.

 

[Dean51]

“Originally Posted by davek14
I am a machinist and like CNC manufactured assemblies as well. I would love to see slipjoints made with modern methods and widely available at convenience stores.”
“Originally Posted by Dean51
I'm thinking some company will step in with modern machinery and techniques, produce volume, consistent quality, with newer steels and at a lower price. From a manufacturing viewpoint there is no reason why a slip joint can't be produced with modern methods at a lower price, with better quality and lower warranty costs.”
“Originally Posted by davek14
This is a pretty expensive custom, but I'll bet slipjoints like this could be made with very good steel on modern machinery pretty cheaply.”

Slip joints can be made by hand and turn out just well made as any knife, there in lies the problem. By nature a stockman requires more steps to produce and assemble than a single blade modern. And when those steps are done by hand it raises the cost. Makers have to know their market and strike a balance cost between and quality to match their market. These two knives have a very nice fit, finish,walk and talk, open each blade and without looking you can not tell them apart. They are not customs but they are not what you will find at Ace hardware either.
Hand building each to exact standards with more expensive steel would price most traditional makers out of the market.
Back in the mid 70's we would take a casting run it through say, 10 operations on 10 machines with 10 operators. Each time it moved a margin of error was introduced to the process. When I retired It took one operator and one machine could do all 10 operations. Cost was down, scrap was down and quality was up.
The parts could be made with enough precision to rival most high end knives. Some company just needs the foresight and investment to make it happen.

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[mrdabble]

Fantastic point, fantastic video Derrick. you may have just pushed me to pick up that 99 Wall Street I've had the itch for!

 

[davek14]

Slip joints can be made by hand and turn out just well made as any knife, there in lies the problem. By nature a stockman requires more steps to produce and assemble than a single blade modern. And when those steps are done by hand it raises the cost. Makers have to know their market and strike a balance cost between and quality to match their market. These two knives have a very nice fit, finish,walk and talk, open each blade and without looking you can not tell them apart. They are not customs but they are not what you will find at Ace hardware either.
Hand building each to exact standards with more expensive steel would price most traditional makers out of the market.
Back in the mid 70's we would take a casting run it through say, 10 operations on 10 machines with 10 operators. Each time it moved a margin of error was introduced to the process. When I retired It took one operator and one machine could do all 10 operations. Cost was down, scrap was down and quality was up.
The parts could be made with enough precision to rival most high end knives. Some company just needs the foresight and investment to make it happen.

So, you were a machinist? Cool. I know knives can be made sweetly by hand. Machines used to be assembled with a lot of hand work as well. Remember scraping in castings? I see the beauty in a more precision looking assembly and I see the beauty in a hand finished item. The beauty of a handcrafted slipjoint brings up memories of my childhood and the warmth of the more natural materials and might press more buttons but a shiny titanium frame done simply and efficiently is kinda purty too.

I was saying that the beauty of either sort is not the primary draw. The slipjoint model works best for me. I do remember when knives were sold at drug stores, hardware stores, and many other places. They were decent pocketknives and most males carried them for utility. Using CNC machining and modern materials to make such a thing would be OK by me.

 

[okbohn]

For me, the two kinds of knives scratch different itches.

I love modern folders because I am an unashamed steel snob. I love the new designs, new engineering, new steels....all of it.
I love traditional folders because they are warm, nostalgic and are some of the best cutting tools on the planet.

I love the discussion. I love that no one will ever nail down which is better. I love that people are passionate about both!

 

[Dean51]

A knife is a knife it has two functions, cut and slice. If it will do those two jobs well it's a good knife.
Look at it this way.
There are AMC Gremlin traditionals and Ferrari traditionals.
There are AMC Gremlin moderns and Ferrari Moderns.

I consider myself a fan of the modern traditional, I love the traditional patterns but also the newer steels CPM154, S30v. with D2 being
favorite.
Maybe I'll start a cult of the modern traditional thread