How Hard Can 420HC Get?

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So it IS crap, even when Buck makes it, as I originally thought.

I'm not totally stupid. I know manufacturers don't go to a cheap steels because they're BETTER!

I don't understand complaining about not being able to sharpen a 440C knife without diamonds. Doesn't everyone use diamonds? I have three hones and at least 4 DMT stones. I lost count. If you have money for steel, you have money for sharpening tools.

When people complain about good steel being hard to sharpen, it makes me think of the complaints gun users make about defensive rounds "overpenetrating." I saw an expert patiently explain that if a round won't penetrate drywall, it sure has hell won't penetrate a criminal in a leather jacket! If a knife is hard to dull, it will probably be hard to sharpen, too.

My sharpest knife is a $9 carbon cleaver from The Wok Shop. In a couple of minutes, I can get this thing so sharp I can hold a paper towel unsupported in front of me and cut through it in one pass. I don't mean a stiff paper towel folded 10 times. I mean a paper towel with one fold. It's magnificent for cucumbers and tomatoes, but I wouldn't want to carve wood or skin a furry animal with it. I don't believe cheap steel belongs in a pocket or a sheath.
 
420 HC works for me for Gerber Strongarm and Gator Blade but my first choice is the buck 110 in 420 HC for price and value. The 420 HC done in a good heat treat lets me have more knives as the same cost of the super uber duber super steel knife. Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a nice super uber duper super steel knife, but practicality evil common sense kicks in so I get them. And it saves the life of the person who looses the knife I loaned them for their outing or hunting trip, so they don't have to pay the price of loosing the knife or break it some how. I just can't let some one go in to the wilderhood with out at least a knife... The Lock Backs and fix blades from both companies have literally saved the lives of a few people I loaned them out to. IE use to get wood or for fire steel to start the fire when they are wet and the temp at night is a wet 50 F. Some come back "Field Scared" but then they offer to buy it as they get sentimental about the item that saved their life.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
So it IS crap, even when Buck makes it, as I originally thought.

I'm not totally stupid. I know manufacturers don't go to a cheap steels because they're BETTER!

I don't understand complaining about not being able to sharpen a 440C knife without diamonds. Doesn't everyone use diamonds? I have three hones and at least 4 DMT stones. I lost count. If you have money for steel, you have money for sharpening tools.

When people complain about good steel being hard to sharpen, it makes me think of the complaints gun users make about defensive rounds "overpenetrating." I saw an expert patiently explain that if a round won't penetrate drywall, it sure has hell won't penetrate a criminal in a leather jacket! If a knife is hard to dull, it will probably be hard to sharpen, too.

My sharpest knife is a $9 carbon cleaver from The Wok Shop. In a couple of minutes, I can get this thing so sharp I can hold a paper towel unsupported in front of me and cut through it in one pass. I don't mean a stiff paper towel folded 10 times. I mean a paper towel with one fold. It's magnificent for cucumbers and tomatoes, but I wouldn't want to carve wood or skin a furry animal with it. I don't believe cheap steel belongs in a pocket or a sheath.
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You are ideally wrong on most points.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones. It is the nature of these alloys that guided sharpeners are always a plus. Even after 30 years of experience sharpening free hand, I find 440 to be the toughest steel to get a consistent edge with, even with several grits of diamond hones, from Xtra Coarse to Xtra fine.

Mind you, it is easy to get a sharp inconsistent 440 edge, or a sharp 440 edge with a wire edge ready to curl out of alignment on the first 50 chops... But a truly quality edge that is consistent throughout, that will not reflect uneven facets, or especially show any roundedness around the knife belly (the dreaded dull belly syndrome), and will thus touch up easily dozens of times with a single swipe because the apex has no wire edge, and is at the top of a single unobstructed flat surface, that is hard to achieve with 440...

Hardness to sharpen is somewhat related to how long a steel will hold that edge, that may be partly true, but it is not entirely related. I have found, while testing chopping in wood extensively with 10" blades, that for this type of use there is little to no discernible difference between even lowly Chinese 420J and the best 440C, and I even think that for the initial fine edge holding, 420 is somehow ahead, showing less tendency to micro-roll, at least on the first 100 chops.

Despite this, 420J is far easier to field sharpen to an edge equivalent to the ideal description above, about on par with most Carbons(!), and way better than 440. Now is that because the more accurate and consistent edge causes this edge holding superiority? I don't know, but it does makes the "cheaper" steel superior in my view.

It may be cheaper, but 420J is the steel I wish was on all my knives. It does seem to do poorly in extreme cold, not sure why.

Gaston
 
Frotier76 said:
Not exactly Ginsu.420HC is in class with another right under it called 420J2 which is used for liner locks,and handle materials...they're known for their tensile strength.Softness and very fine grain structure allows these steels to sharpen up easily and cut well so they do serve in the outdoor industry.But the caveat is it's a blade crafted from what's used for disposable scalpel and razor blades...it's 0.46% in carbon.Most of what you'll encounter in mass production stainless steels among affordable knives yields between 0.60-0.75% in carbon.

A little over 20 years ago a few other USA knife manufacturers started using 420HC in place of 440A for several reasons...

*Much cheaper than 440A.420HC was still rust resistant so people paying for the upgrade to stainless? that was the selling factor.Didn't matter if it underperformed the previous steel or not,the point was people were paying for stainless and they were getting that.

*It was fine blanking where 440A was not

*The beauty of 420HC was they could throw it in with a batch of 1095 Carbon Tool Steel and give them the same heat treatment mixed together and get them 57-59rc.A minimally alloyed stainless and non-alloyed steel were easy to harden and boosted production.440A required a separate heat treatment because it took finesse to harden as a higher alloyed steel.There is nothing particularly 'glorious' about Buck being able to harden their blades to 58rc(laughing)...that was a standard.

The bottom line is Buck uses a cheap steel.The widening of the bevel and narrowing of the edge angle called Edge 2X (Edge 2000 back then) gave more cutting surface and sharpening ease.A functional gimmick back then because it made people believe back in 1999 that Buck had a better heat treatment...nope...just improved edge results.Easy to achieve through re-profiling a blade.It was a useful gimmick back then because only a few manufacturers like Spyderco,CRKT, and a few others had such a great factory edge.Now it's an outdated gimmick because most knives come with a pretty good bevel and edge.All Buck has now is old marketing to sales pitch their 420HC and promoting it just because it's slapped on it a USA made brand.If it said 'China' on the blade a lot more people would be honest with you about it.
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Buck does a great job with 420. A Buck 110 costs 28 dollars and is USA made. Holds an edge well and is easy to sharpen. Don't badmouth just because you don't care for the steel.

In one ear and out the other.
 
Makael said:
Buck does a great job with 420. A Buck 110 costs 28 dollars and is USA made. Holds an edge well and is easy to sharpen. Don't badmouth just because you don't care for the steel.

In one ear and out the other.
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Yeah it's easy to sharpen and takes an edge with the Edge 2X,Pre Edge 2X factory edges require re-profiling.Badmouthing? you must be joking.When I was working in the cutlery industry and some of my co-workers in the meeting heard we were changing to 420HC the comments were 'What?','You've been to be f'ing kidding' and 'what's next?are we making razor blades for Gillette now.'

Yeah please don't let me interfere with your propaganda push to dupe another guy into the BS of 420HC:rolleyes:
 
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Makael said:
Buck does a great job with 420. A Buck 110 costs 28 dollars and is USA made. Holds an edge well and is easy to sharpen. Don't badmouth just because you don't care for the steel.
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I don't worry bad about "badmouthing" inanimate objects. Steel can't cry!

What does "holds an edge well" mean to you? I had a 440C knife that stayed razor sharp after an hour of carving on a hard maple stick. Can I expect a 420HC Buck to do that? If not, then I--personally--wouldn't say it holds an edge well. To me, in 2018, my 1980 440C knife provides a MINIMAL standard. About 40 years have passed since it was made, steel has been improved, and knife makers have learned things about heat treating, so it's very reasonable to expect a knife to hold an edge at least as well as my old Gerber. Manufacturing a lesser knife in 2018 is a deliberate, planned compromise. Every knife company can do better, with the current lineup of stainless steels, if they want to.

Back when I was young, people used to drool over old sports cars. We used to talk about Corvettes and Superbirds like they were the chariots of the gods. Now soccer moms buy 4-door Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords which will absolutely mop the floor with a Superbird, an old Corvette, or an E-Type Jag. Many "fast" stock 1970 cars ran 14.5-second quarter miles, and that's slow now. They couldn't corner or brake, either, and they were unreliable and unsafe and lasted half as long as a post-millennial car. They also got bad mileage and rusted out.

Cars have improved. Knife steel has improved, too. I don't want a new knife that performs worse than a 1980 Gerber, unless it's a cheap beater. It would be like buying a 2018 sports car that runs like a slow, wobbly, totally inferior 1970 Olds 442.

My 420HC Gerbers will get dull after a couple of minutes of cutting paper. If I put a razor edge on one, I use it normally for a while (cutting strings, trimming nails, opening envelopes), and then I check it a week later, it will not shave hairs. I can count on that. I haven't tried a Buck, so I have to go by what other people say. The Rockwell figures I've seen cited sound good, but Buck says "medium edge holding" with regard to 420HC. That doesn't sound like confidence.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones.
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I have an impossible very sharp 440C knife right now.
 
lots of opinions in this one.....

ive use buck 420hc for many tasks and a long time. it works fine for the price and ease of keeping sharp.

mighty ginsu.....sounds like maybe your wire burring........from your description.
 
Gaston444 said:
You are ideally wrong on most points.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones. It is the nature of these alloys that guided sharpeners are always a plus. Even after 30 years of experience sharpening free hand, I find 440 to be the toughest steel to get a consistent edge with, even with several grits of diamond hones, from Xtra Coarse to Xtra fine.

Mind you, it is easy to get a sharp inconsistent 440 edge, or a sharp 440 edge with a wire edge ready to curl out of alignment on the first 50 chops... But a truly quality edge that is consistent throughout, that will not reflect uneven facets, or especially show any roundedness around the knife belly (the dreaded dull belly syndrome), and will thus touch up easily dozens of times with a single swipe because the apex has no wire edge, and is at the top of a single unobstructed flat surface, that is hard to achieve with 440...

Hardness to sharpen is somewhat related to how long a steel will hold that edge, that may be partly true, but it is not entirely related. I have found, while testing chopping in wood extensively with 10" blades, that for this type of use there is little to no discernible difference between even lowly Chinese 420J and the best 440C, and I even think that for the initial fine edge holding, 420 is somehow ahead, showing less tendency to micro-roll, at least on the first 100 chops.

Despite this, 420J is far easier to field sharpen to an edge equivalent to the ideal description above, about on par with most Carbons(!), and way better than 440. Now is that because the more accurate and consistent edge causes this edge holding superiority? I don't know, but it does makes the "cheaper" steel superior in my view.

It may be cheaper, but 420J is the steel I wish was on all my knives. It does seem to do poorly in extreme cold, not sure why.

Gaston
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Give up already 30 years of sharpening and you can't even sharpen cpm class steel.
 
Gaston444 said:
You are ideally wrong on most points.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones. It is the nature of these alloys that guided sharpeners are always a plus. Even after 30 years of experience sharpening free hand, I find 440 to be the toughest steel to get a consistent edge with, even with several grits of diamond hones, from Xtra Coarse to Xtra fine.

Mind you, it is easy to get a sharp inconsistent 440 edge, or a sharp 440 edge with a wire edge ready to curl out of alignment on the first 50 chops... But a truly quality edge that is consistent throughout, that will not reflect uneven facets, or especially show any roundedness around the knife belly (the dreaded dull belly syndrome), and will thus touch up easily dozens of times with a single swipe because the apex has no wire edge, and is at the top of a single unobstructed flat surface, that is hard to achieve with 440...

Hardness to sharpen is somewhat related to how long a steel will hold that edge, that may be partly true, but it is not entirely related. I have found, while testing chopping in wood extensively with 10" blades, that for this type of use there is little to no discernible difference between even lowly Chinese 420J and the best 440C, and I even think that for the initial fine edge holding, 420 is somehow ahead, showing less tendency to micro-roll, at least on the first 100 chops.

Despite this, 420J is far easier to field sharpen to an edge equivalent to the ideal description above, about on par with most Carbons(!), and way better than 440. Now is that because the more accurate and consistent edge causes this edge holding superiority? I don't know, but it does makes the "cheaper" steel superior in my view.

It may be cheaper, but 420J is the steel I wish was on all my knives. It does seem to do poorly in extreme cold, not sure why.

Gaston
Click to expand...

What is 'the dreaded dull belly syndrome'? Is it where the belly of an knife edge tends to get used for cutting more than the rest of the edge, therefore it dulls first?
Or did you just invent the term to go with your 'wobbly edge syndrome'?

Any newer people looking for good info on knives/steels/sharpening, please look to the knowledgeable and experienced people here on BF. The above poster is not one of them.
 
Gaston444 said:
You are ideally wrong on most points.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones. It is the nature of these alloys that guided sharpeners are always a plus. Even after 30 years of experience sharpening free hand, I find 440 to be the toughest steel to get a consistent edge with, even with several grits of diamond hones, from Xtra Coarse to Xtra fine.

Mind you, it is easy to get a sharp inconsistent 440 edge, or a sharp 440 edge with a wire edge ready to curl out of alignment on the first 50 chops... But a truly quality edge that is consistent throughout, that will not reflect uneven facets, or especially show any roundedness around the knife belly (the dreaded dull belly syndrome), and will thus touch up easily dozens of times with a single swipe because the apex has no wire edge, and is at the top of a single unobstructed flat surface, that is hard to achieve with 440...

Hardness to sharpen is somewhat related to how long a steel will hold that edge, that may be partly true, but it is not entirely related. I have found, while testing chopping in wood extensively with 10" blades, that for this type of use there is little to no discernible difference between even lowly Chinese 420J and the best 440C, and I even think that for the initial fine edge holding, 420 is somehow ahead, showing less tendency to micro-roll, at least on the first 100 chops.

Despite this, 420J is far easier to field sharpen to an edge equivalent to the ideal description above, about on par with most Carbons(!), and way better than 440. Now is that because the more accurate and consistent edge causes this edge holding superiority? I don't know, but it does makes the "cheaper" steel superior in my view.

It may be cheaper, but 420J is the steel I wish was on all my knives. It does seem to do poorly in extreme cold, not sure why.

Gaston
Click to expand...

I don't chop open my mail. I don't chop open packages. I don't chop cardboard boxes up at work. I don't chop open my 41oz bag of Skittles. I don't chop that loose thread off of my worn t-shirt. I don't chop a splinter out of my finger that I got from chopping through a counter that happened to have a pizza on top of it.

I doubt that many of us do.
 
Mo2 said:
Give up already 30 years of sharpening and you can't even sharpen cpm class steel.
Click to expand...

S30V, S35VN, CPM 154, CPM 3V, all easier to sharpen for me than most 440.

Getting rid of the wire edge isn't even that difficult on those, especially compared to 440. The trouble is the wire edge re-appears on the very first hit in any wood. Rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see, from the grabbed whitish stuff after just a couple of hits, that these are not knife steels. Unfortunately, some cheap Chinese made Kershaws (7Cr13 I believe) do the same slicing cardboard, so you can't even rely on cheap Chinese junk steel just because it's cheap Chinese junk steel... You can't trust anyone these days.

I know people swear CPM is all premium stuff over 420J... Yet $100 Chinese or Taiwanese specials in 420J will routinely mop the floor with $2000 customs in S30V or D-2. That is just the way it is. Ever heard of the emperor and his clothes?

Gaston
 
It's not the max hardness that matters. It's the quality of the heat treat for that particular Steel and the quality of the 420HC to begin with. Buck has control over their steels manufacture. This is an important factor. Standards man! They don't just buy any old "420HC" floating around out there.
 
Gaston444 said:
S30V, S35VN, CPM 154, CPM 3V, all easier to sharpen for me than most 440.

Getting rid of the wire edge isn't even that difficult on those, especially compared to 440. The trouble is the wire edge re-appears on the very first hit in any wood. Rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see, from the grabbed whitish stuff after just a couple of hits, that these are not knife steels. Unfortunately, some cheap Chinese made Kershaws (7Cr13 I believe) do the same slicing cardboard, so you can't even rely on cheap Chinese junk steel just because it's cheap Chinese junk steel... You can't trust anyone these days.

I know people swear CPM is all premium stuff over 420J... Yet $100 Chinese or Taiwanese specials in 420J will routinely mop the floor with $2000 customs in S30V or D-2. That is just the way it is. Ever heard of the emperor and his clothes?

Gaston
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Slicing cardboard with a 7CR13 Kershaw causes a wire edge? What nonsense.

To claim a cheap Chinese knife in 420J will 'mop the floor' with a high quality knife in S30V or D2 is as vacuous as it is undefined.

I have on rare occasions had a wire edge occur when sharpening M4. Never yet on S30V, S35VN, Elmax, M390.
I don't often 'hit' wood with a powder steel blade, I cut it. And if I do use a chopping action into wood, in no way does a 'wire edge' magically appear at the first hit. Again, you are talking nonsense.

King Canute's admonishments failed to stem the incoming tide. Yours fail to prevent the rest of the knife using world enjoying the benefits of powder steel blades.
 
The Mighty Ginsu said:
I don't worry bad about "badmouthing" inanimate objects. Steel can't cry!

What does "holds an edge well" mean to you? I had a 440C knife that stayed razor sharp after an hour of carving on a hard maple stick. Can I expect a 420HC Buck to do that? If not, then I--personally--wouldn't say it holds an edge well. To me, in 2018, my 1980 440C knife provides a MINIMAL standard. About 40 years have passed since it was made, steel has been improved, and knife makers have learned things about heat treating, so it's very reasonable to expect a knife to hold an edge at least as well as my old Gerber. Manufacturing a lesser knife in 2018 is a deliberate, planned compromise. Every knife company can do better, with the current lineup of stainless steels, if they want to.

Back when I was young, people used to drool over old sports cars. We used to talk about Corvettes and Superbirds like they were the chariots of the gods. Now soccer moms buy 4-door Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords which will absolutely mop the floor with a Superbird, an old Corvette, or an E-Type Jag. Many "fast" stock 1970 cars ran 14.5-second quarter miles, and that's slow now. They couldn't corner or brake, either, and they were unreliable and unsafe and lasted half as long as a post-millennial car. They also got bad mileage and rusted out.

Cars have improved. Knife steel has improved, too. I don't want a new knife that performs worse than a 1980 Gerber, unless it's a cheap beater. It would be like buying a 2018 sports car that runs like a slow, wobbly, totally inferior 1970 Olds 442.

My 420HC Gerbers will get dull after a couple of minutes of cutting paper. If I put a razor edge on one, I use it normally for a while (cutting strings, trimming nails, opening envelopes), and then I check it a week later, it will not shave hairs. I can count on that. I haven't tried a Buck, so I have to go by what other people say. The Rockwell figures I've seen cited sound good, but Buck says "medium edge holding" with regard to 420HC. That doesn't sound like confidence.



I have an impossible very sharp 440C knife right now.
Click to expand...
The Mighty Ginsu said:
I don't worry bad about "badmouthing" inanimate objects. Steel can't cry!

What does "holds an edge well" mean to you? I had a 440C knife that stayed razor sharp after an hour of carving on a hard maple stick. Can I expect a 420HC Buck to do that? If not, then I--personally--wouldn't say it holds an edge well. To me, in 2018, my 1980 440C knife provides a MINIMAL standard. About 40 years have passed since it was made, steel has been improved, and knife makers have learned things about heat treating, so it's very reasonable to expect a knife to hold an edge at least as well as my old Gerber. Manufacturing a lesser knife in 2018 is a deliberate, planned compromise. Every knife company can do better, with the current lineup of stainless steels, if they want to.

Back when I was young, people used to drool over old sports cars. We used to talk about Corvettes and Superbirds like they were the chariots of the gods. Now soccer moms buy 4-door Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords which will absolutely mop the floor with a Superbird, an old Corvette, or an E-Type Jag. Many "fast" stock 1970 cars ran 14.5-second quarter miles, and that's slow now. They couldn't corner or brake, either, and they were unreliable and unsafe and lasted half as long as a post-millennial car. They also got bad mileage and rusted out.

Cars have improved. Knife steel has improved, too. I don't want a new knife that performs worse than a 1980 Gerber, unless it's a cheap beater. It would be like buying a 2018 sports car that runs like a slow, wobbly, totally inferior 1970 Olds 442.

My 420HC Gerbers will get dull after a couple of minutes of cutting paper. If I put a razor edge on one, I use it normally for a while (cutting strings, trimming nails, opening envelopes), and then I check it a week later, it will not shave hairs. I can count on that. I haven't tried a Buck, so I have to go by what other people say. The Rockwell figures I've seen cited sound good, but Buck says "medium edge holding" with regard to 420HC. That doesn't sound like confidence.



I have an impossible very sharp 440C knife right now.
Click to expand...

A suggestion...look into some premium steels.A lot of people who missed 440C turned to VG-10 which is more of a rust resistant alternative to 1095 in edge life.ATS-34 was a harder/more wear resistant but lower rust resistant version of 440C.There's a lot out there that outperforms 440C.

I would also suggest any Sandvik stainless steels for their purity.They aren't premium and a fine blanking alternative, but their purity via alloy reduction does generate a much harder state on the steel in heat treatment than your typical alloyed steel.They have a lot in common with carbon tool/unalloyed steel traits wise as far as edge definition properties and a hard edge through that purity.Sandviks are truly confounding when you research the carbon content and it's something similar to what you've used before so you think 'nothing special'... and then finally you render it dull.It's just such a hard edge you're working with the performance really throws you off.People to this day have yet to properly identify where the performance of Sandvik steels sit against other mass production stainless steels because they're reverse engineered...a stainless for a carbon steel lover.Sandvik is a very unique breed of steel for inexpensive knives and seriously foreign and domestic blades that use it sell really well.If Buck Knives applied one of these as their common steel?I'd highly agree with the propaganda on the performance.
 
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Cursum Perficio said:
Slicing cardboard with a 7CR13 Kershaw causes a wire edge? What nonsense.

To claim a cheap Chinese knife in 420J will 'mop the floor' with a high quality knife in S30V or D2 is as vacuous as it is undefined.

I have on rare occasions had a wire edge occur when sharpening M4. Never yet on S30V, S35VN, Elmax, M390.
I don't often 'hit' wood with a powder steel blade, I cut it. And if I do use a chopping action into wood, in no way does a 'wire edge' magically appear at the first hit. Again, you are talking nonsense.

King Canute's admonishments failed to stem the incoming tide. Yours fail to prevent the rest of the knife using world enjoying the benefits of powder steel blades.
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Well said!
Gaston doesn't know what... nevermind.
Frotier76 said:
A suggestion...look into some premium steels.A lot of people who missed 440C turned to VG-10 which is more of a rust resistant alternative to 1095 in edge life.ATS-34 was a harder/more wear resistant but lower rust resistant version of 440C.There's a lot out there that outperforms 440C.

I would also suggest any Sandvik stainless steels for their purity.They aren't premium and a fine blanking alternative, but their purity via alloy reduction does generate a much harder state on the steel in heat treatment than your typical alloyed steel.They have a lot in common with carbon tool/unalloyed steel traits wise as far as edge definition properties and a hard edge through that purity.Sandviks are truly confounding when you research the carbon content and it's something similar to what you've used before so you think 'nothing special'... and then finally you render it dull.It's just such a hard edge you're working with the performance really throws you off.People to this day have yet to properly identify where the performance of Sandvik steels sit against other mass production stainless steels because they're reverse engineered...a stainless for a carbon steel lover.
Click to expand...
I agree. They do a bang up job with their steel!
 
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