How Hard Can 420HC Get?

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Frotier76 said:
The way people carry on and falsely glorify Buck's 420HC they act as if it's unpatriotic to inquiry Buck's accountability on using such a cheap steel.
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I’ve not seen a single post here where anyone “glorified” Bucks current use of steel. Just people sharing their honest opinion of Buck’s steel after using it, myself included. I stated Buck’s steel was a decent steel but nothing to write home about. Are there better steels than 420HC? Absolutely. Could Buck use a better steel and keep their current pricing? Probably not but who knows. They do seem to know what they’re doing since they’ve been in business for over 75 years now.
 
Frotier76 said:
That's the whole point.Rather than people be absolutely honest on 420HC (which some posters on here have been) people choose to BS others.They'd rather sales pitch 420HC and delude people because it's on USA made rather than say 'they can use something better'.It doesn't have to be 440C like their old days or a high-end steel, but it could easily be any Sandvik,440A or 440B.Instead they use a steel one notch up from what's being used for liner locks and scales in Taiwan and China for crying out loud.The way people carry on and falsely glorify Buck's 420HC they act as if it's unpatriotic to inquiry Buck's accountability on using such a cheap steel.
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Who's trying to bs anyone? With the exception of Gaston's normal insanity all anyone is saying is that Buck's 420 works fine for the low price tag.

They are mass producing knives for the general public who think that knives come in 2 types, stainless and carbon. For knife nuts like us they offer the option of an upgraded steel for a bunch of their models.
 
afishhunter said:
From what I've seen, 420HC is closer to to 1% than 0.46% carbon..
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0.46% matches what I knew. And 420J is around 0.3% Carbon. Both around or under 5160 in Carbon. And yet, if making a ratio between sharpening ease and edge holding, from what I can see, 420J2 is close to the best, if not the best, I have tried so far.

People assume a linear relationship between Carbon content and edge holding... For chopping wood at low edge angles at least, that relationship is certainly not linear...

afishhunter said:
I know my Buck 110 can skin and dress 3 deer before it needs stropping.
I know my (USA) Old Timer 7OT (440A blade) can skin and dress 2 1/2 deer before it needs stropping...
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Does not surprise me in the least.

And if you try to make a ratio between ease of sharpening and edge endurance, the difference will probably be even greater.

afishhunter said:
Rather than bad mouth Buck's 420HC, why don't you TRY a knife with it?
It is obvious to those of us who have actually USED a Buck knife, you never have.
.
Try it before you knock it.
To do otherwise only shows you have no credibility, and do not know what you are talking about.
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Yes. All this is about clinging to a few precarious facts, making them fit into non-existent linear assumptions (newer steel and more Carbon=Better for instance), and then testing, with a huge helping of bias selection, on mediums that look the same but can vary with a ratio of 10:1 (of course that can be enhanced by touching the cutting board while you are at it: Where would those tests be without the option of pressing "just enough" on steels you think are going to be better?)...

These are the same people who are convinced that expensive customs always hold their edge better than cheap factory knives.

They also think reducing edge angle reduces edge endurance.

Gaston
 
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Gaston444 said:
And 420J is around 0.3% Carbon. And yet, if making a ratio between sharpening ease and edge holding, it is, from what I can see, the best I have tried so far.

People assume a linear relationship between Carbon content and edge holding... For chopping wood at low edge angles at least, that relationship is certainly not linear...



Does not surprise me in the least.

And if you try to make a ratio between ease of sharpening and edge endurance, the difference will probably be even greater.



Yes. All this is about clinging to a few precarious facts, making them fit into non-existent linear assumptions (newer steel and more Carbon=Better for instance), and then testing, with a huge helping of bias selection, on mediums that look the same but can vary with a ratio of 10:1 (of course that can be enhanced by touching the cutting board while you are at it: Where would those tests be without the option of pressing "just enough" on steels you think are going to be better?)...

These are the same people who are convinced that expensive customs always hold their edge better than cheap factory knives.

They also think reducing edge angle reduces edge endurance.

Gaston
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Gaston444 said:
0.46% matches what I knew. And 420J is around 0.3% Carbon. Both around or under 5160 in Carbon. And yet, if making a ratio between sharpening ease and edge holding, from what I can see, 420J2 is close to the best, if not the best, I have tried so far.

People assume a linear relationship between Carbon content and edge holding... For chopping wood at low edge angles at least, that relationship is certainly not linear...



Does not surprise me in the least.

And if you try to make a ratio between ease of sharpening and edge endurance, the difference will probably be even greater.



Yes. All this is about clinging to a few precarious facts, making them fit into non-existent linear assumptions (newer steel and more Carbon=Better for instance), and then testing, with a huge helping of bias selection, on mediums that look the same but can vary with a ratio of 10:1 (of course that can be enhanced by touching the cutting board while you are at it: Where would those tests be without the option of pressing "just enough" on steels you think are going to be better?)...

These are the same people who are convinced that expensive customs always hold their edge better than cheap factory knives.

They also think reducing edge angle reduces edge endurance.

Gaston
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Why haven't you provided the facts yet on some of the other posts you've make like where you said it was against the law to use a carbon knife is a restaurant kitchen?

Remember we're not talking about you. We're talking about the clearly false information you constantly post. Commonly know as lying.
 
Gaston444 said:
0.46% matches what I knew. And 420J is around 0.3% Carbon. Both around or under 5160 in Carbon. And yet, if making a ratio between sharpening ease and edge holding, from what I can see, 420J2 is close to the best, if not the best, I have tried so far.

People assume a linear relationship between Carbon content and edge holding... For chopping wood at low edge angles at least, that relationship is certainly not linear...



Does not surprise me in the least.

And if you try to make a ratio between ease of sharpening and edge endurance, the difference will probably be even greater.



Yes. All this is about clinging to a few precarious facts, making them fit into non-existent linear assumptions (newer steel and more Carbon=Better for instance), and then testing, with a huge helping of bias selection, on mediums that look the same but can vary with a ratio of 10:1 (of course that can be enhanced by touching the cutting board while you are at it: Where would those tests be without the option of pressing "just enough" on steels you think are going to be better?)...

These are the same people who are convinced that expensive customs always hold their edge better than cheap factory knives.

They also think reducing edge angle reduces edge endurance.

Gaston
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You are the most heavily biased "tester" I have come across on this forum Gaston. You refuse to back up any of your claims with links to articles that you have referenced and no one else seems to have the same results that you tout. You also seem to favour straw man arguments.:rolleyes:
 
danbot said:
You are the most heavily biased "tester" I have come across on this forum Gaston. You refuse to back up any of your claims with links to articles that you have referenced and no one else seems to have the same results that you tout. You also seem to favour straw man arguments.:rolleyes:
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Agreed
 
danbot said:
You are the most heavily biased "tester" I have come across on this forum Gaston. You refuse to back up any of your claims with links to articles that you have referenced and no one else seems to have the same results that you tout. You also seem to favour straw man arguments.:rolleyes:
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Agreed. Very well put DB.
Joe
 
danbot said:
You are the most heavily biased "tester" I have come across on this forum Gaston. You refuse to back up any of your claims with links to articles that you have referenced and no one else seems to have the same results that you tout. You also seem to favour straw man arguments.:rolleyes:
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He chopped a 1/2" deep into hardwood one time, with a 420J2 knife. That's all he needs to formulate a theory that it's the best steel on Earth!
 
91bravo said:
He chopped a 1/2" deep into hardwood one time, with a 420J2 knife. That's all he needs to formulate a theory that it's the best steel on Earth!
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Of course! And he will criticize anyone Else's testing, but there is nothing whatsoever wrong with his own.:rolleyes:
Back on topic;
Buck has the HT nailed for the 420HC that they use and no one should be complaining about the performance for what it is and for the price of their knives. They aren't claiming that their 420 will out perform S30V etc. and they aren't charging S30V prices.
And as someone else mentioned, Buck does offer higher quality steels on some models if you wish to pay more for "better".
 
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He also received a 30 year old Al Mar, gorgeous folder, and immediately chopped some wood with it.
That’s the first thing I’d do.......if I snorted a pound of meth and drank a gallon of Jack Daniels.
Ugh
 
420hc is not that great of a steel until you maximize its heat treatment like bos does for the buck brand knives.

They could use any budget steel and ht it to optimal if they wanted.

The bos ht uses cryo and a specific proven ht profile to make 420hc better than most companies do.

So not going to glorify 420hc, but buck does it better as proven by many tests one of which is linked above.

The same can be said if 8cr13mov... Does piss poor until the ht is done right. But most companies don't care about optimal ht on 8cr13mov knives as they are cheap knafs for people who don't really care about edge retention.

In any case buck has made the best of what materials they have for low costs.
 
PoorUserName said:
Not a bad result for Buck 420HC

"BOS 420HC 67 - Buck vantage select" : 67 cuts of rope before becoming blunt.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/17366331
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But he has M390 at 334 cuts... Vs 67 for 420(!)... In reality the difference is probably very modest (or even less than modest): According to Cliff Stamp, whose testing I trust a lot more than Cedric's, the difference between a $1 Chinese knife in 420J (3Cr13, presumably 0.3% Carbon), with matching angles and polish, vs K390, CPM-M4 and VG-10, is very small and has many overlapping runs. I think he refers to a negligible statistical significance...


When you see an obvious difference like 67 to 334, you know this is largely accounted for by tester bias, edge finish/angle/geometry, user motion or non-randomly mixed mediums... Scatter alone means there would inevitably be overlaps between two steels...

In my testing, cheap Chinese 420J, in initial fine edge holding (phonebook paper slicing) in the first 100 hits, while chopping into Maple, seemed to outperform everything I ever tried by a significant margin, including INFI, CPM-3V, various 440C, 5160, and even Japanese Aus-6, probably the one with the cleanest structure (if we believe Japanese industrial claims). S30V in a $2K custom, and CPM-154 on an $800 custom, both micro-folded a detectable wire edge on single hits, even at fairly broad angles, so they could not even participate (this doesn't mean they didn't slice, just that they failed to keep the apex straight at similar angles)...

Cheap Chinese and Taiwanese 420J are the only two steels that ever went back into their respective sheaths, after a chopping test, with me not even bothering to touch them up(!)... Does this mean they were absolutely superior to INFI, 440C or Aus-6 in edge-holding? No, but when you combine that strange impression with easier sharpening (vs 440C at least!), it certainly seems like their edge-holding to sharpening ease ratio is way, way up there (as long as it wasn't -30 Celcius apparently)...

You can't infer absolute "steel rankings" and fine distinctions on tests that are never more than coarse "impressions" of the manufactured end result, unless you use machine-controlled motion and mix up the mediums, over long runs, in a way that goes even beyond what Cliff does. At minimum, purpose-built test mules, rather than different makes of knives, would make this an actual steel test, not just a knife test. But even then, it would all become an issue of manufacturing and heat-treat/steel composition matching well or not.

Just the fact that a tester will not mention "scatter" in his test results pretty much says everything you need to know.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
When you see an obvious difference like 67 to 334, you know this is largely accounted for by tester bias, edge finish/angle/geometry, user motion or non-randomly mixed mediums... Scatter alone means there would inevitably be overlaps between two steels...

Gaston
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Or, maybe, just maybe, that obvious difference is because M390 holds an edge longer than 420 when that tester put the same worksharp 20 degree edge on both steels, cut the same rope on the same cutting board with the same motion.
 
Planterz said:
:poop:
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Cliff Stamp? Didn't he steal a bunch of money from folks on here with phony knife sales? Of course he did.

I'm sure he just lies to steal. He wouldn't lie to bolster his reputation to steal larger sums. That wouldn't make any sense.
 
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