How Hard Can 420HC Get?

[danbot]

Yes Sandvik. They area a quality supplier!

Sandvik, Mitsubishi, Iscar, Gorilla, all tops in carbide machining /carbide inserts/machining tools, why would their knife steel suck?​

 

[vwb563]

S30V, S35VN, CPM 154, CPM 3V, all easier to sharpen for me than most 440.

I know people swear CPM is all premium stuff over 420J... Yet $100 Chinese or Taiwanese specials in 420J will routinely mop the floor with $2000 customs in S30V or D-2. That is just the way it is. Ever heard of the emperor and his clothes?

Gaston

My personal experience of over 40 years of using and sharpening knives has been the exact opposite of Mr Gaston444. In my experience 420J2 has been an absolute junk steel. It’s used on “gas station” throw away knives and only keeps any kind of edge that one can manage to get on it for about one cut through any kind reasonably tough material. Bucks 420 combined with their excellent heat treatment makes for a decent edge holding blade. So far Kershaw’s 420 in my experience has held its own against Buck’s 420. Aside from those two manufacturers when I see a knife made of 420J2 or 420 I keep scrolling.

 

[Dave from State Farm]

You are ideally wrong on most points.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones. It is the nature of these alloys that guided sharpeners are always a plus. Even after 30 years of experience sharpening free hand, I find 440 to be the toughest steel to get a consistent edge with, even with several grits of diamond hones, from Xtra Coarse to Xtra fine.

Mind you, it is easy to get a sharp inconsistent 440 edge, or a sharp 440 edge with a wire edge ready to curl out of alignment on the first 50 chops... But a truly quality edge that is consistent throughout, that will not reflect uneven facets, or especially show any roundedness around the knife belly (the dreaded dull belly syndrome), and will thus touch up easily dozens of times with a single swipe because the apex has no wire edge, and is at the top of a single unobstructed flat surface, that is hard to achieve with 440...

Hardness to sharpen is somewhat related to how long a steel will hold that edge, that may be partly true, but it is not entirely related. I have found, while testing chopping in wood extensively with 10" blades, that for this type of use there is little to no discernible difference between even lowly Chinese 420J and the best 440C, and I even think that for the initial fine edge holding, 420 is somehow ahead, showing less tendency to micro-roll, at least on the first 100 chops.

Despite this, 420J is far easier to field sharpen to an edge equivalent to the ideal description above, about on par with most Carbons(!), and way better than 440. Now is that because the more accurate and consistent edge causes this edge holding superiority? I don't know, but it does makes the "cheaper" steel superior in my view.

It may be cheaper, but 420J is the steel I wish was on all my knives. It does seem to do poorly in extreme cold, not sure why.

Gaston

Gassy, another member asked you this a while back, but you never answered. Please tell us what color is the sky in your world??

Edit- member not memeber!!

 

[Icehawk]

I don't chop open my mail. I don't chop open packages. I don't chop cardboard boxes up at work. I don't chop open my 41oz bag of Skittles. I don't chop that loose thread off of my worn t-shirt. I don't chop a splinter out of my finger that I got from chopping through a counter that happened to have a pizza on top of it.

Then you are doing it wrong. Sheesh.

 

[Mo2]

S30V, S35VN, CPM 154, CPM 3V, all easier to sharpen for me than most 440.

Getting rid of the wire edge isn't even that difficult on those, especially compared to 440. The trouble is the wire edge re-appears on the very first hit in any wood. Rub your nails away from the edge, and you will see, from the grabbed whitish stuff after just a couple of hits, that these are not knife steels. Unfortunately, some cheap Chinese made Kershaws (7Cr13 I believe) do the same slicing cardboard, so you can't even rely on cheap Chinese junk steel just because it's cheap Chinese junk steel... You can't trust anyone these days.

I know people swear CPM is all premium stuff over 420J... Yet $100 Chinese or Taiwanese specials in 420J will routinely mop the floor with $2000 customs in S30V or D-2. That is just the way it is. Ever heard of the emperor and his clothes?

Gaston

You are wrong. So wrong.

 

[Frotier76]

My personal experience of over 40 years of using and sharpening knives has been the exact opposite of Mr Gaston444. In my experience 420J2 has been an absolute junk steel. It’s used on “gas station” throw away knives and only keeps any kind of edge that one can manage to get on it for about one cut through any kind reasonably tough material. Bucks 420 combined with their excellent heat treatment makes for a decent edge holding blade. So far Kershaw’s 420 in my experience has held its own against Buck’s 420. Aside from those two manufacturers when I see a knife made of 420J2 or 420 I keep scrolling.

Actually Kershaw's USA hardness has been known to be 55-57rc.So I doubt their heat treatment would speak more for 420HC than it would for the hardening capabilities through their use of Sandvik 14C28N.That's a very interesting insight you have because I was a big fan of CRKT back in the late90's/early 2000's.As a Taiwan made brand their AUS-6 Stainless Steel was advertised as hardened 55-57rc and I heard all this guff from people saying 'oh it's terrible steel...doesn't hold an edge'...worked fine for me.Yet here you are peddling a lower quality steel... in that same rc hardness gap...yet it MUST be decent because it's made in the USA.

Yeah that's some real honest salesmanship if I ever saw it

 

[91bravo]

You are ideally wrong on most points.

440C or B, or even A, sharpens poorly, even with diamond hones. It is the nature of these alloys that guided sharpeners are always a plus. Even after 30 years of experience sharpening free hand, I find 440 to be the toughest steel to get a consistent edge with, even with several grits of diamond hones, from Xtra Coarse to Xtra fine.

Mind you, it is easy to get a sharp inconsistent 440 edge, or a sharp 440 edge with a wire edge ready to curl out of alignment on the first 50 chops... But a truly quality edge that is consistent throughout, that will not reflect uneven facets, or especially show any roundedness around the knife belly (the dreaded dull belly syndrome), and will thus touch up easily dozens of times with a single swipe because the apex has no wire edge, and is at the top of a single unobstructed flat surface, that is hard to achieve with 440...

Hardness to sharpen is somewhat related to how long a steel will hold that edge, that may be partly true, but it is not entirely related. I have found, while testing chopping in wood extensively with 10" blades, that for this type of use there is little to no discernible difference between even lowly Chinese 420J and the best 440C, and I even think that for the initial fine edge holding, 420 is somehow ahead, showing less tendency to micro-roll, at least on the first 100 chops.

Despite this, 420J is far easier to field sharpen to an edge equivalent to the ideal description above, about on par with most Carbons(!), and way better than 440. Now is that because the more accurate and consistent edge causes this edge holding superiority? I don't know, but it does makes the "cheaper" steel superior in my view.

It may be cheaper, but 420J is the steel I wish was on all my knives. It does seem to do poorly in extreme cold, not sure why.

Gaston

You're going to have to provide some evidence to back up these claims, or else everyone's going to think your claims are just full of crap. More evidence than just chopping a 1/4" deep notch into a 4" branch, with a 10" knife.

 

[vwb563]

Yeah that's some real honest salesmanship if I ever saw it

I don’t who you think you are to accuse me of anything Mr keyboard commando! I don’t have access to any kind of hardness testing machine so I can’t test the hardness of any of my blades. I highly doubt you do either. What I spoke about was my own personal experience with Buck’s and Kershaw’s 420 steel. I’m not a BIG fan of either but I have used both in the field and my experience has been that they both hold a decent edge. Nothing to write home about but decent. So go bash on someone who don’t know any better because you’re wasting your time on me, I do know better! Have a good day sir!

 

[22-rimfire]

Does anyone here know...I mean really KNOW...how hard 420HC can be? I read that it tops out at 55 RC, but someone is trying to tell me it goes to 59.

I have two Gerber Gator II knives made from this stuff, and they're very soft. Worthless except as cheap beaters.

I am comfortable with Case's use of 420HC as well as the old Schrade USA knives. On recent Bucks, I would just say you get what you paid for. Most regular people like a softer steel because they can sharpen it. The harder stuff is ....well harder for the most part. The old 80's Gerber Gator's weren't bad but were a bit harder to sharpen than some. I one from that period and used it as a hunting knife then. Almost always used folders for hunting knives back then.

 

[PoorUserName]

I have seen old knives that have been sharpned that much there is nothing much more than a toothpick left, so i would prefer a steel that kept the edge even if it took a while to sharpen.

 

[willc]

I am comfortable with Case's use of 420HC as well as the old Schrade USA knives. On recent Bucks, I would just say you get what you paid for. Most regular people like a softer steel because they can sharpen it. The harder stuff is ....well harder for the most part. The old 80's Gerber Gator's weren't bad but were a bit harder to sharpen than some. I one from that period and used it as a hunting knife then. Almost always used folders for hunting knives back then.

I have a Gerber Gator and a EZ Out and I like the steel that was used on them, a pretty nice balance.
The EZ Out was a mid 80’s knife that I got at the PX in Ft Hood, the Gator I picked up on the exchange and I think it is from the same time frame just by quality and manufacturing similarities.

420hc is a steel that I haven’t used a lot but the few knives I have in it, a Link and some older Buck Lites?, perform fine.
For work I like my knives to be easy to sharpen, so most days I carry Victorinox steel, aus8, or 4116.

 

[me2]

That's potentially poor sharpening technique more than steel dulling too quickly. People do odd things to sharpen. I had a knife down to a toothpick in just a couple years, but that was because l sharpened it aggressively on a belt sander.

I have seen old knives that have been sharpned that much there is nothing much more than a toothpick left, so i would prefer a steel that kept the edge even if it took a while to sharpen.

 

[22-rimfire]

That's potentially poor sharpening technique more than steel dulling too quickly. People do odd things to sharpen. I had a knife down to a toothpick in just a couple years, but that was because l sharpened it aggressively on a belt sander.

Dad did that with my first "good" knife as a kid. But I used it a lot. No regrets.

 

[oxman198]

After seeing this post I took my buck paklite skinner to work for a little edge retention testing. I cut up two big cardboard boxes into pieces with it for a total of 113 slices until I ran out of cardboard. Didn’t measure the cuts, I guess the were from 8-16” cuts. It still sliced paper easily after that, which is plenty good for me. Cardboard seems pretty rough on an edge so I was pleasantly surprised. I’d say Bucks 420hc is pretty great for the price after this.

 

[afishhunter]

Not exactly Ginsu.420HC is in class with another right under it called 420J2 which is used for liner locks,and handle materials...they're known for their tensile strength.Softness and very fine grain structure allows these steels to sharpen up easily and cut well so they do serve in the outdoor industry.But the caveat is it's a blade crafted from what's used for disposable scalpel and razor blades...it's 0.46% in carbon.Most of what you'll encounter in mass production stainless steels among affordable knives yields between 0.60-0.75% in carbon.

A little over 20 years ago a few other USA knife manufacturers started using 420HC in place of 440A for several reasons...

*Much cheaper than 440A.420HC was still rust resistant so people paying for the upgrade to stainless? that was the selling factor.Didn't matter if it underperformed the previous steel or not,the point was people were paying for stainless and they were getting that.

*It was fine blanking where 440A was not

*The beauty of 420HC was they could throw it in with a batch of 1095 Carbon Tool Steel and give them the same heat treatment mixed together and get them 57-59rc.A minimally alloyed stainless and non-alloyed steel were easy to harden and boosted production.440A required a separate heat treatment because it took finesse to harden as a higher alloyed steel.There is nothing particularly 'glorious' about Buck being able to harden their blades to 58rc(laughing)...that was a standard.

The bottom line is Buck uses a cheap steel.The widening of the bevel and narrowing of the edge angle called Edge 2X (Edge 2000 back then) gave more cutting surface and sharpening ease.A functional gimmick back then because it made people believe back in 1999 that Buck had a better heat treatment...nope...just improved edge results.Easy to achieve through re-profiling a blade.It was a useful gimmick back then because only a few manufacturers like Spyderco,CRKT, and a few others had such a great factory edge.Now it's an outdated gimmick because most knives come with a pretty good bevel and edge.All Buck has now is old marketing to sales pitch their 420HC and promoting it just because it's slapped on it a USA made brand.If it said 'China' on the blade a lot more people would be honest with you about it.

From what I've seen, 420HC is closer to to 1% than 0.46% carbon.
Disposable razors are not 420HC.
440A is used for fine blanking.
I know my Buck 110 can skin and dress 3 deer before it needs stropping.
I know my (USA) Old Timer 7OT (440A blade) can skin and dress 2 1/2 deer before it needs stropping.
FWIW, Schrade (USA) and all their sub-brands (Imperial, Uncle Henry, Old Timer, Ulster, Hammer Brand, etc) never used 420HC, or, so far as I know, 440C. They used 440A for all their stainless steel knives.
Their carbon steel blades were all 1095.

Rather than bad mouth Buck's 420HC, why don't you TRY a knife with it?
It is obvious to those of us who have actually USED a Buck knife, you never have.
As someone stated above, you can get a Buck 110 for $28 at wally's.
Try it before you knock it.
To do otherwise only shows you have no credibility, and do not know what you are talking about.

 

[Frotier76]

From what I've seen, 420HC is closer to to 1% than 0.46% carbon.
Disposable razors are not 420HC.
440A is used for fine blanking.
I know my Buck 110 can skin and dress 3 deer before it needs stropping.
I know my (USA) Old Timer 7OT (440A blade) can skin and dress 2 1/2 deer before it needs stropping.
FWIW, Schrade (USA) and all their sub-brands (Imperial, Uncle Henry, Old Timer, Ulster, Hammer Brand, etc) never used 420HC, or, so far as I know, 440C. They used 440A for all their stainless steel knives.
Their carbon steel blades were all 1095.

Rather than bad mouth Buck's 420HC, why don't you TRY a knife with it?
It is obvious to those of us who have actually USED a Buck knife, you never have.
As someone stated above, you can get a Buck 110 for $28 at wally's.
Try it before you knock it.
To do otherwise only shows you have no credibility, and do not know what you are talking about.

My apologies for not replying sooner...I didn't hop on Bladeforums yesterday.420HC is 0.46% in carbon,you can confirm that from any information source covering a wide range of steel's and their composition to looking on Latrobe Specialty Steels website and see for yourself.It's called 'HC' for high-carbon...as in the highest of carbon of the 420 Series.Actually stainless steels that are molybdenum-free are fine blanking and the 440 Series is certainly not that due to the high molybdenum content on top of the extra chromium.Why do think traditional steels in use today are ones that DON"T contain molybdenum?

Imperial only survived until 1986 until the plant in Rhode Island was closed...they've always been 440A.In fact in their last few years they ended up giving their 440A Stainless Steel the marketing name 'Diamondbrite' steel.Camillus and Schrade did switch to 420HC in the late 90's.I already explained the whole intention and process...maybe you should backtrack and re-read if you can't keep up.Not only can I confirm that as a former employee of the Imperial Schrade Corporation but fellow Schrade staff has posted that information as well on Bladeforums many years ago.You should find posts on it pertaining to the Schrade+ steel.

Lastly...I've bought plenty of knives of Buck in their 420HC.I used to have an interest in that steel myself. I have a 295 Tempest,a 442 Bucklite,a 112 Ranger,and can't recall the model# but it was a folder called the Access 3.0.As a hunting steel it's functional but the edge properties of Sandvik and that harder edge can replace 420HC easily in use of sportsman's cutlery.Sandvik can sharpen just as easily in the field and perform better...any grade of it.As a utility knife steel 420HC's edge does roll under pressure easier than any mass production steel out there and dulls quicker on coarse materials.I've spent quite a bit of time with 420HC blades by Buck Knives and to me it's an ordinary heat treatment like anyone else and what's doing the extra work/giving the advantage is merely the Edge 2X.Aquire a Buck knife in 420HC in the old edge geometry of Buck and you'll see it performs equal to the thinner bevel of a Schrade or Camillus blade in 420HC.Except for our flat grinds.At Schrade Cutlery we had a wicked flat grind that even though the bevel would be worn a good bit it could be capable of cutting a lot longer.We kept the bevel thin to retain edge strength while grinding it to the fine level of a utility razor blade to extend the cutting power by digging deeper and making it functional until one could get around to sharpening.That grind was never incorporated by Schrade as a marketing tool...that was just how we ground our blades.


You embarrassed yourself plenty in that previous post by the way.

 

[afishhunter]

F Frotier76 No apology needed.

My Imperial Barlows, both USA (Prov RI) and Ireland have 1095 blades. They do not have "Schrade +" on the tang stamp, and they take a patina. Therefore, they do not have stainless steel blades, which you claim all Imperial's do or did.

The sources I saw online give 425HC much more carbon than 0.46% which would make it a LOW carbon steel alloy, not a HIGH carbon steel alloy. The "HC" is for High Carbon, after all.
It is my understanding that anything below 0.55% carbon is a low carbon steel.
I admit I am not an "steel expert", like you. I have never worked in the cutlery industry.
I was only an onsite fabrication welder for 10 years. "On Site" means not based in or at a factory. (I only worked with cast iron, low carbon, high carbon, various stainless steels, and non ferrous metals, depending on the project. And yes, cast iron can be welded. It does require preheating before you can weld it, and yes, it is a pain in the sitter.

For whatever reason, you don't care for Buck knives. That's fine. I don't care for Spiderco or Kershaw. Who cares? What difference does it make? If someone wants to buy a Spiderco, Kershaw, or whatever, I am not going to try to stop them. (Well, OK, I will try to discourage them from buying a Frost knife shaped object ...)
Why do you feel you have to discourage people from buying a Buck knife?

I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else.

I'm out of here. I will not be back.

 

[hank_rearden]

Yeah, I don't really want to blurt it out here but I always thought the Buck 110/112 is one of the best knives I've used ---regardless of price. The only thing I don't like about it: the nail nick, meaning I don't need it.

 

[Makael]

Bucks 420 is fine, I don't know who pissed in Frotier76 coffee but he has issues. For whatever reason feels the need to prove a worthless point. Buck will continue to build knives in whatever steel they want. They never claimed 420 is a super steel.

5 years with 240 posts and picking on 420HC on post 240?

 

[Frotier76]

Bucks 420 is fine, I don't know who pissed in Frotier76 coffee but he has issues. For whatever reason feels the need to prove a worthless point. Buck will continue to build knives in whatever steel they want. They never claimed 420 is a super steel.

5 years with 240 posts and picking on 420HC on post 240?

That's the whole point.Rather than people be absolutely honest on 420HC (which some posters on here have been) people choose to BS others.They'd rather sales pitch 420HC and delude people because it's on USA made rather than say 'they can use something better'.It doesn't have to be 440C like their old days or a high-end steel, but it could easily be any Sandvik,440A or 440B.Instead they use a steel one notch up from what's being used for liner locks and scales in Taiwan and China for crying out loud.The way people carry on and falsely glorify Buck's 420HC they act as if it's unpatriotic to inquiry Buck's accountability on using such a cheap steel.