How is cpm M4 vs. INFI

Here's your toughness test, Have 2 similar sized knives, one INFI one M4. Have them both sharpened at 10deg per side. Now cut just hard woods, and do real use activities. See what happens to which steel. I know who my money is on.
Yeah, and if you purposely slant a comparison so as to draw out the weaknesses of M4 (particularly corrosive environment or cutting medium) then you'll be able to win that bet too. It's a well known fact that INFI doesn't do well below 12-15 degrees per side, like D2; although unlike D2, INFI's tendency when its edge strength is overcome is to blunt versus chip. Since a 20 degree (included) angle is not what you'd have on a 1/4"-5/16" stock thickness heavy fixed blade for any application other than sitting in a living room, showing your friends how it pops hairs and hearing them say "Ooooooooo!" it's kind of a moot point. Increase the angle to 15 per side on both knives and see where the results go. Actually, I can tell you where they'll go---M4's superior wear characteristics will help it pull ahead in abrasive cutting mediums (cardboard, rope, etc) where INFI's greater ability to survive impact/torsional forces will help its edge retention under impact and twisting motions. Both are worthwhile considerations.
 
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Yeah, the last part is the one people have hard time coping with :) I've heard it a lot of times, nobody is gonna make special steel for a maker, they're too small etc...
In fact most of the steel companies producing those super duper steels are nowhere in top 30 steel producers of the world. If you pay, you will get your formula.
You should put Latrobe's Chipper knife steel in your steel chart for easier comparisons to INFI: http://latrobesteel.com/assets/documents/datasheets/LSS_Chipper.pdf
 
Yeah, and if you purposely slant a comparison so as to draw out the weaknesses of M4 (particularly corrosive environment or cutting medium) then you'll be able to win that bet too. It's a well known fact that INFI doesn't do well below 12-15 degrees per side, like D2; although unlike D2, INFI's tendency when its edge strength is overcome is to blunt versus chip. Since a 20 degree (included) angle is not what you'd have on a 1/4"-5/16" stock thickness heavy fixed blade for any application other than sitting in a living room, showing your friends how it pops hairs and hearing them say "Ooooooooo!" it's kind of a moot point. Increase the angle to 15 per side on both knives and see where the results go. Actually, I can tell you where they'll go---M4's superior wear characteristics will help it pull ahead in abrasive cutting mediums (cardboard, rope, etc) where INFI's greater ability to survive impact/torsional forces will help its edge retention under impact and twisting motions. Both are worthwhile considerations.


I read posts like this all the time on BF and I just have to wonder how much of this is based on reguritated hearsay.

I have a Ranger RD7 (5160 @ 58 HRC) that I thinned to 10 degrees per side and have extensively chopped and batoned it through the nastiest, knotiest, hardest hardwood I could find with zero edge damage other than minor loss of sharpness (it still shaved hair). It sharpens up beautifully, whittles hair, and with minimal effort. The difference between 10 degrees per side and the 20+ degree per side edge it came with is night and day in terms of performance.

I also have a chef's knife in D2 that I and my wife use almost every day in the kitchen. It has a 10 degree per side edge bevel on it and has never chipped and holds it's edge extremely well. It also takes a nice polished edge that will whittle hair.
 
Mat Damon!!!!!!!!!




There now I feel I have added to the discussion.


But really, I don't have a knife in M4 so that is all I could add to the conversation.


I can say that the Infi I own, both in thick and thin handles very well. I have broken a few knives in my life. And chipped a few edges. Infi flexes well, takes impact well, is easy to get sharp and keep sharp. Infi is not magic. It will get dull, and you can break it. Just a lot harder to break than anything else I have ever used. But then again, I haven't used everything.
 
INFI's good, but it can't do anything much better than properly heat treated 5160.

M4 is sharper and more wear resistant.
 
I read posts like this all the time on BF and I just have to wonder how much of this is based on reguritated hearsay.

I have a Ranger RD7 (5160 @ 58 HRC) that I thinned to 10 degrees per side and have extensively chopped and batoned it through the nastiest, knotiest, hardest hardwood I could find with zero edge damage other than minor loss of sharpness (it still shaved hair). It sharpens up beautifully, whittles hair, and with minimal effort. The difference between 10 degrees per side and the 20+ degree per side edge it came with is night and day in terms of performance.

I also have a chef's knife in D2 that I and my wife use almost every day in the kitchen. It has a 10 degree per side edge bevel on it and has never chipped and holds it's edge extremely well. It also takes a nice polished edge that will whittle hair.

No doubt a thinner edge will cut better, you simply have to cope with the fact that it IS more susceptible to damage, regardless of the steel. I certainly don't advocate 40 degree edges outside of cold chisels, but have seen enormous differences between 18-20 degree (included) edges and 25-30 degree edges in most steels, especially under impact. I've found this in knives, machetes and axes all the same. Batoning is not as hard on an edge as chopping, because it's a much more controlled cutting action. Chopping, you're trying to hit the right spot over and over again but no matter how good you are you'll have some amount of lateral force from glancing blows that you just won't see in batoning unless you're too drunk to be trusted with a knife. ;) That's why you can drive a very fine edged chisel through wood with a mallet without hurting it, but try doing some icepick stabs with it and see what happens to that edge.

As to the kitchen knife, that geometry is absolutely correct for that type of use, and yes even with D2. I've never understood people having a problem getting D2 blisteringly sharp either, but there are other steels that will hold it better at that geometry.

M4 is a really nice steel--I have a Spyderco Mule in it and also a very nice hunter/skinner by Phillip Patton that I had fun using on four antelope in Wyoming this past October (no, I didn't shoot them all, just got stuck with the dressing 'cause I'm the fastest, which is a sad commentary on our group) and it performed extremely well. I think he landed on 63.5 HRC if I'm remembering right. Anyway, despite having a very fine geometry and it being very cold, there was no significant dulling or damage even from sawing/slicing through the neck down to the spines. Never sharpened it during the trip, just made sure to get the blood off of it as fast as I could, and even then it had developed a light dusting of rust by the time I finished the first animal, but no pitting. I was hoping to have a "run off" against one of the other guys using my Dozier skinner but honestly there wasn't enough cutting to be done to phase either of them. Included edge angle is floating right around the 20-22 range, according to my little angle finder and magnifying glass.

So no, steel doesn't become glass if you drop down into thinner edges, but there's no way to get around the fact that durability is lessened more the farther you go, and different alloys have different peaks/valleys of behavior. My little D2 Queen Canoe (back before I'd heard about D2's behavior) was a disappointment to me at first, because it hardly seemed to hold an edge as well as any of my old Case CV blades; but, I'd gone too thin. Where D2 wasn't keeping up with essentially 50100-B with a very thin edge (I don't know the angle I was at it's too long ago) it easily surpasses it when both are in the "medium" geometries. Everything's a tradeoff, unfortunately.

INFI's good, but it can't do anything much better than properly heat treated 5160.

MUCH better, no, but a little better in pretty much every way, yes. The truly remarkable thing about it is that it acts like 5160/L6 and it's damned near stainless--even after seven or eight years with the stuff, that still just almost doesn't compute for me. :D
 
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Since a 20 degree (included) angle is not what you'd have on a 1/4"-5/16" stock thickness heavy fixed blade for any application other than sitting in a living room, showing your friends how it pops hairs and hearing them say "Ooooooooo!" it's kind of a moot point.

So as not to "purposely slant a comparison", it should be a "heavy fixed blade", sharpened like an axe, as it is supposed to be for all applications apart from sitting in a living room showing it to friends?
 
So as not to "purposely slant a comparison", it should be a "heavy fixed blade", sharpened like an axe, as it is supposed to be for all applications apart from sitting in a living room showing it to friends?

Not at all, but the specific request of the OP was for info regarding steel for "hard use" outdoor knife. Somewhere between axe and scalpel geometry should be the aim. I do have to give a call back on my tone and apologize to Samhain73, though. Sitting on a conference call for a few hours with an extended family fight makes for some spurious belligerence, apparently. Didn't used to----maybe I'm getting old. :foot:
 
i know that these are two different type of steels, but another thread got me thinking. which steel would be better for an all around hard use fixed blade knife? im talking blades between 4 and 8 in. I am very curious as i don't know too much about M4, and would like to know where I can go to look at knives of this size in M4 steel. I have a hard time finding any. any opinions appreciated. thanks

I don't think you can find any fixed blade knife commercially available in M4. As for Busse, there are many to choose from. These knives are really hard to beat! You can't go wrong with a Busse!
 
Mat Damon!!!!!!!!!




There now I feel I have added to the discussion.


But really, I don't have a knife in M4 so that is all I could add to the conversation.


I can say that the Infi I own, both in thick and thin handles very well. I have broken a few knives in my life. And chipped a few edges. Infi flexes well, takes impact well, is easy to get sharp and keep sharp. Infi is not magic. It will get dull, and you can break it. Just a lot harder to break than anything else I have ever used. But then again, I haven't used everything.

Same here, I have taken INFI down to 15 Degrees per side and chopped very hard wood with it and it held up great, no denting and the edge held it's sharpness extremely well. :thumbup:

This is Dogwood and it's like chopping through rocks it's so hard.


Batoning through it was like trying to split a piece of granite.
 
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This seems like a tricky comparison to make. Most M4 knives available right now are folders while most Busse's are thick, XL size fixed blades.

Two very different animals..... has anyone done a rope cutting test or something of that nature where the measure of both types of blade can be taken?
 
True.

One big difference though, properly heat treated H grade 5160 costs a lot less.

Would you provide some numbers to back this or are you just trolling the Busse threads again. You've been warned about this in the past.

Eric
 
I know INFI is tough, the other day I was chopping and cutting down some saplings with my FFBM when I hit a rock, all it did was dent the edge a little, simple 5 min fix. ;)

I am talking about a full swing with a 32 ounce knife that went through the sapling like it wasn't even there and into the ground. That's when I heard the clink. :D

Yeah it's tough. :thumbup:
 
Would you provide some numbers to back this or are you just trolling the Busse threads again. You've been warned about this in the past.

Eric
Trolling!? Are you kidding me? You call this trolling?

What is the average cost of a Ranger knife in 5160?
What is the average cost of any knife in 5160?

It's a heck of a lot less than any similar size Busse.

I fail to see where I bashed Busse knives in my posting.
 
What is the average cost of a Ranger knife in 5160?
What is the average cost of any knife in 5160?
It's a heck of a lot less than any similar size Busse.
It is trolling, because the way you made your original comment and overall tone of your posts. In this particular instance you started with "properly" heat treated 5160, etc... Now you all of the sudden are going onto "average" cost of "any"...
Might as well pick average Pakistani knife...

I fail to see where I bashed Busse knives in my posting.
Oh, that I believe. But, a lot of readers pretty much any post from you, here and in many other threads is aimed at bashing Busse company and knives.

So, to clarify, why don't you provide some numbers where properly heat treated 5160 outperformed INFI, including chopping and cutting.
 
Anyone know of any examples of M4 in a fixed blade? I haven't seen any, and I'd like to look at some. Maybe do a side-by-side of my own this summer.
 
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