How is cpm M4 vs. INFI

Gator97 said:
It is trolling, because the way you made your original comment and overall tone of your posts. In this particular instance you started with "properly" heat treated 5160, etc... Now you all of the sudden are going onto "average" cost of "any"...
Might as well pick average Pakistani knife...


Oh, that I believe. But, a lot of readers pretty much any post from you, here and in many other threads is aimed at bashing Busse company and knives.

So, to clarify, why don't you provide some numbers where properly heat treated 5160 outperformed INFI, including chopping and cutting.
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I responded to Flatgrinders post where HE said: "INFI's good, but it can't do anything much better than properly heat treated 5160. "

Go back and read his post, then read mine.

Notice that Flatgrinder used the term "properly". He started the term in this post, not me.
Nowhere in Flatgrinders post, or mine did either of us say anything about 5160 "Outperforming INFI". You just made this out of your own head.

Lots of knee jerk reactions around here....
 
bearcut said:
Nowhere in Flatgrinders post, or mine did either of us say anything about 5160 "Outperforming INFI". You just made this out of your own head.
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Ok, my bad, although point is the same, you'd have to have some data to back that up...

bearcut said:
Lots of knee jerk reactions around here....
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Squarely your fault, or your own doing. U haven't missed a single chance to post negatively on Busse for a long time.
 
Gator97 said:
Ok, my bad, although point is the same, you'd have to have some data to back that up...
quote]

Once again, I never said that 5160 "Outperforms" INFI. Can't get this out of your head eh?

The opinion was: "INFI's good, but it can't do anything much better than properly heat treated 5160. "

It is an opinion. There are many opinions on BF.
Flatgrinder has one. I have one. We happen to agree.

Last I heard, an opinion needs no "Data" to back it up.

You are making yourself look rather silly, don't you think?
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bearcut said:
It is an opinion. There are many opinions on BF.
Flatgrinder has one. I have one. We happen to agree.
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Well, we're not in court, so be mu guest, if you call that an opinion, and admit you have no data to back it up I am fine. BTW, I understood you don't say 5160 outperforms, but "can do the same" is also a statement, for which you also have no data, just an opinion...

So, why exactly did you have a problem with an opinion that you were trolling then?

bearcut said:
You are making yourself look rather silly, don't you think?
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:) If you say so...
 
Well, I believe zealotry in general is not beneficial. Especially if it's based on negativity.
 
Gator97 said:
Well, we're not in court, so be mu guest, if you call that an opinion, and admit you have no data to back it up I am fine. BTW, I understood you don't say 5160 outperforms, but "can do the same" is also a statement, for which you also have no data, just an opinion...

So, why exactly did you have a problem with an opinion that you were trolling then?


:) If you say so...
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Gator97 said: "BTW, I understood you don't say 5160 outperforms, but "can do the same" is also a statement, for which you also have no data, just an opinion..."

You are quoting me as saying "can do the same"?!!!!
I never said that. Once again you are making things up out of your own head. You do have a lot of hampsters up there don't you?

Go ahead, find my post where I said "can do the same" . I'll wait.
 
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bearcut said:
You are quoting me as saying "can do the same"?!!!!
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No, it was my interpretation, or my opinion, that what you said before meant that.
Specifically this:

bearcut said:
INFI's good, but it can't do anything much better than properly heat treated 5160
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If no, and you believe INFI is capable of more and is a better steel , why don't you say so, just to clarify ;)

bearcut said:
I never said that. Once again you are making things up out of your own head. You do have a lot of hampsters up there don't you?
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Now, now, no need to get too agitated...

BTW, I'm not quite sure, how exactly 5160 vs INFI topic refutes or invalidates an opinion that you have a grudge against Busse, which is abundantly clear based on your posting history.
 
Skrapmetal said:
Anyone know of any examples of M4 in a fixed blade? I haven't seen any, and I'd like to look at some. Maybe do a side-by-side of my own this summer.
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Feel free to do your side-by-side: http://www.bradleysblades.com/cutting.html

I have no dog in this fight, have never owned a Busse and only had folders that use M4. On the other hand, it is pretty common knowledge that most competitors in those cutting challenges use M4 for their choppers. The interesting thing about those tests is that they represent a variety of situations and therefore require a blade that is extremely sharp and yet can hold an edge after cutting ropes or cans.
 
LorenzoL said:
Feel free to do your side-by-side: http://www.bradleysblades.com/cutting.html

I have no dog in this fight, have never owned a Busse and only had folders that use M4. On the other hand, it is pretty common knowledge that most competitors in those cutting challenges use M4 for their choppers. The interesting thing about those tests is that they represent a variety of situations and therefore require a blade that is extremely sharp and yet can hold an edge after cutting ropes or cans.
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If I do a side by side, it's to see results for myself to see which I prefer for the knives I use. I do it a lot, and usually sharpen up the knives I don't like and send them on to someone else. I don't video tape it or post results... it's just for selfish reasons.

What those cutting competitions show me is that M4 sharpens up well and has good edge retention, but it doesn't tell me everything I want to know about the metal. And admittedly, I don't know anything else about it.
 
Skrapmetal brings up an interesting point. almost all of the competition cutting knives are made from M4, because it is very hard, and can get very sharp and thin without becoming weak. M4 has the best combination hardness, and strength of any steel Ive seen, however it is not stainless. INFI's advantage comes from it;'s stainless characteristics, as it is easily the best performing stainless steel.
 
Most fixed blades in M4 are going to come from custom makers, at this point. So far, it hasn't really caught on in the production world, mainly as it's availability is limited and it's more difficult to work with than some other steels. Like I said, Phillip Patton made me a hunter with it, and might be worth contacting, as he does knives of all sizes (and does them VERY well, too). Of course, as he apparently despises having to work with M4, the fact that I'm suggesting him as a possible maker for you might mean he drives down here and whacks me with his hammer; but so be it. :D
 
JohnTheTexican said:
Benchmade Gold Class 201-91 Activator
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I think this is the only production fixed M4 knife and it is expensive and limited edition, so I'm not surprised that very few people have used M4 in a fixed blade. I do have a pass-around going on with a Mule M4 though.

In any case, M4 is very different from INFI so the comparison is kind of weird, the only thing these steels have in common is that they both work well in choppers.

t1mpani said:
Most fixed blades in M4 are going to come from custom makers, at this point. So far, it hasn't really caught on in the production world, mainly as it's availability is limited and it's more difficult to work with than some other steels. Like I said, Phillip Patton made me a hunter with it, and might be worth contacting, as he does knives of all sizes (and does them VERY well, too). Of course, as he apparently despises having to work with M4, the fact that I'm suggesting him as a possible maker for you might mean he drives down here and whacks me with his hammer; but so be it. :D
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M4 is starting to get quite popular amongst custom makers, I know of a couple more makers adopting it. But it may never catch on because it is very hard to grind in its hardened state. That's why S30V never really caught on amongst custom makers, and M4 is worse (although in the annealed state M4 is easier to grind than S30V). Also the steel is very expensive, in a fixed blade you are using twice as much steel. Even in a small knife you could pay $35 just for the steel itself.
 
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LorenzoL said:
The myth of M4 being a super expensive steel seems to be alive and kicking.
Here is a comparison of the price of M4 and S30V, taken from the updated online catalog of AKS ( http://www.alphaknifesupply.com/bladesteel.htm )
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Myth? You list some one-off pieces that do not represent the prices from the Crucible distributors in official sizes.

I ordered both M4 and S30V from Crucible, for a 1/8"x2"x36" bar it was $62 for S30V and $100 for M4. M4 is about 40% more expensive per pound than S30V and 3V, 25% more expensive than 10V.

Basically you're paying $100+shipping for enough steel for about 3 fixed blades.
 
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So, according to your own data, there is a 38$ difference between a bar of S30V and one of M4, that bar allows you to make 3 fixed blades, so a difference per blade of a whopping 13$.
And we are talking about custom knives, which cost several hundred dollars...
 
LorenzoL said:
So, according to your own data, there is a 38$ difference between a bar of S30V and one of M4, that bar allows you to make 3 fixed blades, so a difference per blade of a whopping 13$.
And we are talking about custom knives, which cost several hundred dollars...
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True, I only brought up S30V because you did, and my response is that M4 is more expensive. You also have to take into account the higher austenization temperature of M4, and the 6 hours of tempering at a high 1025F, and the fact that M4 is not stainless. So you can see why M4 has never caught on. I know only a handful of M4 fans who would pay an extra $20 for M4 over S30V.

The cost of M4 gets really extreme if you're comparing it to 5160 which many choppers are made out of. That's why you only see such choppers in competition knives.
 
Not only the material itself, but also heat-treatment costs more in case of HSS due to
it's higher austenizing temperature.
 
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