how many of you use a mill for making guards

[jll346]

I guess I'm a dinosaur, but if you can't make a knife without a mill, how do you call it handmade? I will admit to using power tools, but not to making parts or fits with a mill. I guess I may be a little hypocritical, as I use PG 01 exclusively, but if it takes a mill to a knife, then I am simply, and totally, unimpressed. knifemaking has developed into style, hype and fad, rather than workmanship. I can remember a time when Randall Knives was useing a mill to fit their grips to the astronaut knives they made. They tried their best to keep it a secret, but I knew people that worked for them. They were also using HT ovens, and keep that secret as best they could. I do not mean to demean, as I know knifemaking has become so highly competitive that one pretty much has to conform, but I see it as a loss to hand skilled knifemaking. It seems as though, anyone with enough money to buy the high tech machinery, can turn out really nice knives, if their design is acceptable, but what is the price in the long haul of things? Are hand skills a thing of the past, when once, you could not even be accepted in the KNIFEMAKERS GUILD, if it was even thought that you used something like a mill to produce your knife? I just do not understand it all. Things are developing into, how good of a machinest you are, rather than how good are you at hand making a knife. Please, no one take offense. These are just the ramblings of an old knifemaker, whose days are growing shortly numbered, but still takes pride in hand making. I apologize if any are offended, but ask that you give thought to the matter.

A LITTLE bit rediculous. You could fill my shop with all those high end machines and I presonally could not produce the level of knives many of these guys on here do. So... there is still a HIGH level of skill needed to produce high quality knives. I just think with these precision machines people are able to bring thier great knives to another level and cut production time down. When it is your only source of income, time and quality are probally two important issues.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I guess I'm a dinosaur, but if you can't make a knife without a mill, how do you call it handmade? I will admit to using power tools, but not to making parts or fits with a mill. I guess I may be a little hypocritical, as I use PG 01 exclusively, but if it takes a mill to a knife, then I am simply, and totally, unimpressed. knifemaking has developed into style, hype and fad, rather than workmanship. I can remember a time when Randall Knives was useing a mill to fit their grips to the astronaut knives they made. They tried their best to keep it a secret, but I knew people that worked for them. They were also using HT ovens, and keep that secret as best they could. I do not mean to demean, as I know knifemaking has become so highly competitive that one pretty much has to conform, but I see it as a loss to hand skilled knifemaking. It seems as though, anyone with enough money to buy the high tech machinery, can turn out really nice knives, if their design is acceptable, but what is the price in the long haul of things? Are hand skills a thing of the past, when once, you could not even be accepted in the KNIFEMAKERS GUILD, if it was even thought that you used something like a mill to produce your knife? I just do not understand it all. Things are developing into, how good of a machinest you are, rather than how good are you at hand making a knife. Please, no one take offense. These are just the ramblings of an old knifemaker, whose days are growing shortly numbered, but still takes pride in hand making. I apologize if any are offended, but ask that you give thought to the matter.

Well, lets not confuse "making an excellent knife" with "making an excellent hand fabricated knife". There are plenty of folks who collect knives because they recognize the amount of time and skill and hand labor it took to make it. A friend of mine has a tapestry that was handmade, tiny knot by tiny knot, in some 3rd world country where labor is very cheap. He said it took some lady months of hand labor to make it. Not very interesting at first glance, but quite an interesting piece, once you know the story behind it. It represents a slice of a person's life and that is why he bought it.

There are other folks who are into knives and specialty knives because they want a special geometry, steel or heat treat that isn't available in most mass produced knives. They don't really care how hard it was to make, or how many hours of your life you have poured into it - they're interested in performance and quality.

It doesn't take less skill to make a knife with a mill - in fact I'd argue it takes more skills. It can reduce the tedious roughing, though the hand skills are still required to finish it.

If someone were to go out and spend 60K on a nice new CNC mill, but didn't have the skills required to use it, it would be a useless lump of iron. They do not just do it for you, and it isn't easy.

I'm sorry if you feel like something you love has changed and has lost something that was special to you and in order to be "with the times" you'd have to get into something you really don't want to. But I assure you - the more things change, the more things stay the same. I'll bet that 90% of knifemakeing hasn't changed in a hundred of years.

 

[Phil Dwyer]

...But i do want a complete shop to pass on to my 3 year old.

Give him a stick of wood and a hammer and he'll be happy for years!!! My eight still has a blast hammering nails into wood scraps and constructing all kinds of weird boats and planes, etc, etc.... Of course the nail and screw (cordless screw guns are cool too!) inventory gets hit pretty hard. It's an investment!

He's been working on the "Boat-Plane" on the left for the last couple of days. The one to its right he made one weekend last year in my high school wood shop. He glued it up and had to leave it there to dry. He begged I hide it so the high school kids wouldn't play with it and break it!
.

 

[butchesforge]

If youre low buck and don't make very many knives and just need to slot,do like me and use a 2 axis milling vise on your floor model drill press.I have slotted mild steel,wrought iron,brass,it is slow but it works and I haven't broke an endmill yet,slow but steady.that's meRegards Butch

 

[marekz]

Let me take this further, you say you want one that's CNC capable.

WHY?

Because someone mentioned that their's is. Do you really need that? Why???

Just reading ideas on the forum is NOT going to help you get what YOU need/want.

You need to get around some machines, see how they work and why, what they're capable of, what their limitations are, etc.

You could get a brand new, fully loaded Bridgeport sent to your shop, and it wouldn't mean jackshit right now since you wouldn't know what to do with it.

Slow down and take a deep breath my friend

ok-thankz-marekz

 

[NickWheeler]

Sorry Marek, I didn't mean to seem angry about it... lol.

But I do think you need to do what you can to see some machines in use. I think the most common mistake most of us make is to get something we can afford sooner rather than later. Then we end up with a machine that is too light, too small, and underpowered.

Ultimately you'll be best off if you get something with mass, rigidity, power, and the ability to get up and flat out run. IMHO

 

[Leu Custom]

I say try to get by right now without one and SAVE UP atleast a few thousand $$ (new) and buy one after talking and learning from someone who uses one daily or a machine shop class or whatever !

i would say atleast get one of the ones that weighs a few thousand lbs in the full size bridgeport knee mill or something to that level. JET makes some really nice ones !

CNC is cool, but in reality, most of us, wouldn't have the slighest clue how to program one, other than Nathan of course (and whoever else i don't know about !) I think even Nick doesn't know how ! (maybe he does and i'll get slapped )

I think it's all about having the big and cool toys that is usually on a guy's toy list and there's nothing wrong with that if you figure out how the heck to use your new CNC mill !

 

[SteelSlaver]

I agree with needing to play with one for a while before you buy. I don't know that you need a knee mill if you are going to keep your projects small. If you don't get a knee, get one with a dovetailed column. That is a mistake I made. I have a round column and it can be a pain. I have since made a lot of additions to my $1500 Grizzly machine. Replaced the motor with a 3ph and VFD so I don't spend a bunch of time changing belts. Added scales to all my axis so I know just where I am and don't have to have dial indicators hanging everywhere. The scales do make it easier to get back to where I was when I raise the head on the column. The money only starts with the machine.
examples
Collets-You need one for every sized tool shank you will be usind I got a holder and quick changes off ebay. Big improvement.

Mills-This is never ending. There are some good buys on small carbide ones on ebay at times

Vise-You need a good one or more. You must be able to hold your work well.

Parallels- Matching steel plates of different widths that go in the vise to hold your work up evenly in the vise

measuring equipment. Either a DRO (digital read out) or sliding scales that you can mount on the bed and head to measure your movement or several dial indicators and bases to mount so you can read where you are. It is very hard to just eyeball it and be accurate. Also need some type of wigglers. These are small tools that mount in the collet and make a movement when they touch something. This lets you know where the center of your head is in relationship to your work. Getting dial indicators positioned to get the readings you want can really be a pain. The scales where a bit of a hassle to mount but, a huge improvement. Once again ebay and some thinking and work to mount.

A power feed for the main axis is very handy. It is difficult to feed as smoothly by hand. I modified mine to use a pot with finer control. I used a 5 turn pot instead of the stock one turn, so I could control the speed better.

I was luck after I got started my cousin who is a machinist came to my area for some work and he helped me set my machine up correctly and showed me how to use it correctly. He helped me add the scales (big improvement) Why I needed the parallels, etc etc.

For example, just to do a good job of slotting guards.

Your need to get your vise parallel to the column or the slot will not run down the center of the material.

Parallels to holt the work up and level in the vise.

You need to have a way to measure where the tool is compared to the material so you can get centered on it and cut the slot the correct width and length.

You will need the correct end mill to cut the slot. It needs to be smaller than the finished width of the slot. A 3/16 mill will not make a true 3/16 slot. As it cuts it will deflect slightly and the cut will come out oversized. If you want a 3/16 slot start with a 1/8 and then widen it with light cuts until you have 3/16.

These small tools break very easily and until you know what your doing you will
break/dull them a lot. My first guard took forever, several mills and didn't fit tight. My last ones fit well and I didn't break anything.

Cnc is great if you are making more than one or 2 of something. If not you will spend more time programing than it would take to make it with manual controls. My cousin programs cnc machines and that is what he says.

 

[drewfacehotm]

I guess I'm a dinosaur, but if you can't make a knife without a mill, how do you call it handmade? I will admit to using power tools, but not to making parts or fits with a mill. I guess I may be a little hypocritical, as I use PG 01 exclusively, but if it takes a mill to a knife, then I am simply, and totally, unimpressed. knifemaking has developed into style, hype and fad, rather than workmanship. I can remember a time when Randall Knives was useing a mill to fit their grips to the astronaut knives they made. They tried their best to keep it a secret, but I knew people that worked for them. They were also using HT ovens, and keep that secret as best they could. I do not mean to demean, as I know knifemaking has become so highly competitive that one pretty much has to conform, but I see it as a loss to hand skilled knifemaking. It seems as though, anyone with enough money to buy the high tech machinery, can turn out really nice knives, if their design is acceptable, but what is the price in the long haul of things? Are hand skills a thing of the past, when once, you could not even be accepted in the KNIFEMAKERS GUILD, if it was even thought that you used something like a mill to produce your knife? I just do not understand it all. Things are developing into, how good of a machinest you are, rather than how good are you at hand making a knife. Please, no one take offense. These are just the ramblings of an old knifemaker, whose days are growing shortly numbered, but still takes pride in hand making. I apologize if any are offended, but ask that you give thought to the matter.

Loveless was one of the founding members of the Knifemakers Guild, and he's known to use a mill for all of his tight fits, from sloting guards to cutting scales to match the angle of the guard to the tapered tang.

 

[LRB]

No offense taken LRB!

I'm assuming you use only a hacksaw, files, sandpaper, and a coal forge for heat-treating???

Do you use electricity???

Certainly YOU DO NOT use a belt grinder, drill press, disc sander, or any such thing right???

You don't read very well, do you Nick?

 

[Don Hanson III]

LRB, I can appreciate your views and I don't use any of the high tech machines.

But these same views just about killed the Knife Maker's Guild. BTW, I know the history
and no need to to drag it out here.

 

[marekz]

Thanks for all the advice fellas. I go through this phase about once a year or so. I think i started a thread on this last year. Its the time of year where i may run into a few extra bucks and always want to buy something ill think ill need. I have all the basics right now. i have the grinder,files,belts,drill,and basic supplies. i guess i really need a new washing machine.lol... i have what i need and still need a long time to master using what i have. I am not a full time knife maker. I am very part time. I dont even really sell anything- i still usually give them away ( except for a few). anyway-thanks again-marekz

 

[stephanfowler]

Thanks for all the advice fellas. I go through this phase about once a year or so. I think i started a thread on this last year. Its the time of year where i may run into a few extra bucks and always want to buy something ill think ill need. I have all the basics right now. i have the grinder,files,belts,drill,and basic supplies. i guess i really need a new washing machine.lol... i have what i need and still need a long time to master using what i have. I am not a full time knife maker. I am very part time. I dont even really sell anything- i still usually give them away ( except for a few). anyway-thanks again-marekz

Make knives,

Make more knives

when you come across an issue that bothers you with your knives (I keep having "X" problem) THEN start looking at what tooling would solve the problem.

you seem to be trying to solve a problem you don't have yet?

As an example,

I've been using my forge for HT since I first started making knives

I started out quenching in water, did good learned stuff, got to the point where water wouldn't let me do what I wanted to do so I got some Parks #50.

I've hit another roadblock over the past 6 months and have come to realize I'm at the point where the ONLY way my HT is going to get better than it is right now is for me to invest in better tools. I'm going to be buying a HT oven in the next couple weeks, but then I'm going to have to waste a good bit of time and a bunch of steel learning how to get the best potential out of my new oven.

but I firmly believe it's the only reasonable way for ME to move forward.

 

[Hmathews]

I'm going to have to waste a good bit of time and a bunch of steel learning how to get the best potential out of my new oven.

Stephen it is never a "waste" of time learn how to use a piece of equipment that will give you more consistency with your heat treatment and improve your knives. It is like testing a knife to destruction. It is something you do to improve all subsequent knives.

 

[BRTATCK]

Mareks, I use the same Sherline Don does. For slotting guards it works fine and it is a good little mill. I would love to have a Bridgeport and am working on getting one in the future. The Sherline has served me well but you have to know it's limitations.

 

[stephanfowler]

Stephen it is never a "waste" of time learn how to use a piece of equipment that will give you more consistency with your heat treatment and improve your knives. It is like testing a knife to destruction. It is something you do to improve all subsequent knives.

true that Harry, maybe "dedicate" would be more appropriate terminology

 

[sunshadow]

I guess I'm a dinosaur, but if you can't make a knife without a mill, how do you call it handmade? I will admit to using power tools, but not to making parts or fits with a mill.

Where then do you draw the line between the drillpress which I assume you use, the grinder which I also assume you use, and the mill, which in it's purest form is a rigid drillpress with an X-Y vise to hold the work?

<SNIP>

I can remember a time when Randall Knives was useing a mill to fit their grips to the astronaut knives they made. They tried their best to keep it a secret, but I knew people that worked for them. They were also using HT ovens, and keep that secret as best they could.

It is dreadfully unfortunate that people are still promulgating this misperception, let alone following it! Modern steels (heck even 10xx steels) have properties that can best be utilized if you control your variables with a proper Heat Treat which can only be achieved in a consistant heat source. True art is achieved by controlling process variables to allow the handwork to produce the optimum expression free of defects caused by inconsistancies.
If you are not using a consistant heat source your blades will not be consistant. They may all *skate a file* but pearlite skates a file just as well as martensite

These are just the ramblings of an old knifemaker, whose days are growing shortly numbered, but still takes pride in hand making. I apologize if any are offended, but ask that you give thought to the matter.

If you truly take pride in your work you will take the time to learn how to use the tools that affect what your customer cannot see to enhance the quality of what your customers have grown to love. You state on your website that you use O-1, to properly heat treat O-1 a kiln is not optional.
I forge my blades from known steel, sometimes I smelt my own steel. I am a goldsmith as well as a bladesmith. Craftsmanship involves using the best tools you have access to in creating the finest piece you can create.

-Page

 

[Bill Hoffman]

I have a little Taig mill. I really like it. For the small stuff it works just
fine. You can also learn what you're doing without breaking the bank and having to dedicate a large amount of floor space. Would it be nice to have a Bridgeport? YUP! But right now the Taig suits just fine. It's teaching me to be delicate and to plan what I really want to do. If I did lots and lots, it wouldn't suit, but for now, just fine.

Bill

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Hi Folks,

I enjoy threads like this. They're quite informative. Jim I really appreciate your taking the time to spell out so many of the details of what it takes to become familiar with the milling technology, tooling and skill sets required. That sure helps to put it more in perspective. I'm grateful for everyone's thoughts, including suggestions to slow up and/or consider passing altogether on this technology.

I for one, admire all you guys who know how to mill and machine and create fine quality stuff with it. I understand the value of actually seeing and learning this stuff first hand. I have a cousin who is a machinist and has offered to assist me in what ever way he can. But, I only see him on summer visit to NH and can't really pester him at work, therefore I'm still pretty much in the dark...except what I can glean from you guys.

I have no real plans to go out and buy a huge costly mill for a a few reasons. I cannot afford it. I have no place for it. I wouldn't know squat about using it. On-the-other-hand, I am a chronic Graigslist, eBay and yard sale watcher. If I were to ever come across something dirt cheap I'd like to have some little bit of an idea if it would be worth picking up. I gotta start my learning curve somewhere!

I actually am developing another approach altogether for my guards and fittings right now though...lost wax casting. Are any of you familiar with it?

Thanks again for all your input!

All the best, Phil

 

[NickWheeler]

LRB, saying I can't read very well??? That just seems mean. I thought there was no offense meant by your post? Why did you take offense to mine?



I just think it kind of odd that there are always folks that want to have a soap box about "handmade" and the evils of things like milling machines... yet their knives are NOT HAND MADE.

The first couple dozen knives I made were done with a hacksaw, files, and a hand-drill. I didn't use any power tools. So as things moved along I started buying equipment.... like a belt grinder, a drill press, a buffer, a metal cutting bandsaw... all the while making guards that were fit with drilled holes and files.

After several years I got a small mill and fumbled through learning how to use it to put a slot in a guard. I still do all the final fitting by hand, and will gladly put my guard fits up against anybody's out there.

BUT NOW, ACCORDING TO YOU, I cannot call them handmade because I roughed the slot in with the mill.

Well what about the belt grinder? What about my drill press? What about my metal cutting bandsaws? How did my work get to pass through all of those tools and still be "handmade" yet the minute I added a mill to my shop I am a sell-out??? Someone with no appreciation for fine hand work???

I'm not offended by your post... I just think it's rather closed off.