How much does steel really matter?

knarfeng said:
Blade geometry is the most important parameter in cutting performance. Proven fact.
After that is alloy and temper. Alloy and temper can't be separated, although many folks try.
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This. I had a chubby M390 blade that cut far worse and held an edge no longer than a SAK.
 
Reading these replies has made me realize that it's not so much the steel, it's the price of better steel that puts me off using the knife as hard as I'd use a relatively affordable and replaceable knife, and I've broken as many blades made from good steel as 'bad' steel (aside from 3V) by driving them through knots or hacking and boring at hard wood. I found powdered steels tend to chip as well, and it takes serious work to re-profile a chipped edge, which brings me to the issue of sharpening. The S90V on a Benchmade that I owned for a time was a nightmare to just touch up after use, let alone re-profile the edge with a better geometry. Same for a Manix with a Maxamet blade, I wound up gifting both to friends because they were more trouble than they were worth to me. These cheaper steels are almost impossible to not give a razor edge to in just a couple of minutes.

Plus you don't often get knives in more specialized steels that are designed to be put to work. They're more pocket jewelry and the most I can see anyone using them for is cutting up a cereal box to fit in the kitchen trashcan. Or the Amazon Prime box your air fryer turned up in.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder what the point is, but I realize I'm very much a certain type of user that manufacturers don't really cater toward because it's not generally where the money is to be found.
 
PaultheCarpenter said:
Reading these replies has made me realize that it's not so much the steel, it's the price of better steel that puts me off using the knife as hard as I'd use a relatively affordable and replaceable knife, and I've broken as many blades made from good steel as 'bad' steel (aside from 3V) by driving them through knots or hacking and boring at hard wood. I found powdered steels tend to chip as well, and it takes serious work to re-profile a chipped edge, which brings me to the issue of sharpening. The S90V on a Benchmade that I owned for a time was a nightmare to just touch up after use, let alone re-profile the edge with a better geometry. Same for a Manix with a Maxamet blade, I wound up gifting both to friends because they were more trouble than they were worth to me. These cheaper steels are almost impossible to not give a razor edge to in just a couple of minutes.

Plus you don't often get knives in more specialized steels that are designed to be put to work. They're more pocket jewelry and the most I can see anyone using them for is cutting up a cereal box to fit in the kitchen trashcan. Or the Amazon Prime box your air fryer turned up in.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder what the point is, but I realize I'm very much a certain type of user that manufacturers don't really cater toward because it's not generally where the money is to be found.
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My Spyderco with S110V steel is nearly impossible to get razor sharp. And it doesn’t hold the edge better than the M390 blade on the LUDT. Marketing and the internet have a way of making their way to your wallet :-)
 
I agree, I think a lot of it is down to marketing gimmicks and having people believe they're capable of doing more with a blade of a superior steel. Meanwhile, as work knives go, I still haven't found a worthy competitor to my trusty, and stupidly cheap Kershaw Barge.
 
Well if only someone was able to invent a machine that could bore holes in wood.

I"m a bit of a scientist myself and working on a new thing called a "wood miner"

For lack of a better terms it will use spiral like hard tiny knives to "drill" holes into other things that are not quite as hard. I think it will be revolutionary (because it works by revolving). Watch this space for more news.
 
PaultheCarpenter said:
Reading these replies has made me realize that it's not so much the steel, it's the price of better steel that puts me off using the knife as hard as I'd use a relatively affordable and replaceable knife, and I've broken as many blades made from good steel as 'bad' steel (aside from 3V) by driving them through knots or hacking and boring at hard wood. I found powdered steels tend to chip as well, and it takes serious work to re-profile a chipped edge, which brings me to the issue of sharpening. The S90V on a Benchmade that I owned for a time was a nightmare to just touch up after use, let alone re-profile the edge with a better geometry. Same for a Manix with a Maxamet blade, I wound up gifting both to friends because they were more trouble than they were worth to me. These cheaper steels are almost impossible to not give a razor edge to in just a couple of minutes.

Plus you don't often get knives in more specialized steels that are designed to be put to work. They're more pocket jewelry and the most I can see anyone using them for is cutting up a cereal box to fit in the kitchen trashcan. Or the Amazon Prime box your air fryer turned up in.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder what the point is, but I realize I'm very much a certain type of user that manufacturers don't really cater toward because it's not generally where the money is to be found.
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I think you would be very happy with S30V or S35V steel for your needs. What do you do that breaks blades?

I have tried very hard to break a blade and have only broken one in my entire life. That was when I was a kid and I believe there was an imperfection in the steel. But I really didn't know enough to even look then.
 
It's important but often overemphasized given the massive impacts that geometry and the specific heat treatment has IMHO. It does not carry huge weight in my decision, although if the steel has the known properties of being extremely easy to sharpen and taking an extremely aggressive edge (e.g., the blue paper steels), I may favor it over competing options on similar or identical knives depending on the usage scenario. Further, while I like reading about edge retention tests of various steels, I am cautious in the ability to generalize most findings to anything beyond the very specific sample being tested in that exact usage scenario with an identical user.
 
While 3V is exceptionally tough and good quality steel, I'd hate to be stuck somewhere with it without diamond sharpener.
Now again we return back to plain old carbon steel like 10xx, or SK-x series.
Low alloy tool steels like A2 or O1 are also great for that application.
Not even mentioning good old 5160 and 52100.
 
knarfeng said:
Blade geometry is the most important parameter in cutting performance. Proven fact.
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Agreed. If you other folks had read Larrin's thread of "13 myths about heat treat"...then you would have seen this...
And I would argue that the single most important factor for knife performance is the edge geometry rather than the steel selection or heat treatment.
 
22-rimfire said:
What do you do that breaks blades?

I have tried very hard to break a blade and have only broken one in my entire life. That was when I was a kid and I believe there was an imperfection in the steel. But I really didn't know enough to even look then.
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I primarily build sets for TV, movies, theater, events, etc. Fairly often I need to rough things up, which invariably involves gouging at stuff to achieve a certain look. I realize I'm an edge case scenario here, but trust me, I can make short work of almost any knife, which is why I'm leaning toward cheaper steels as I find they're just as tough as the more expensive steels due to their relative softness. S30 and 35V are too brittle and chip too easily.
 
I really like CPM-S35VN. It holds a good edge, get very sharp, and is easy to maintain. Even fairly dull, I was able to bring it back to very sharp using just the fine stone on my sharpmaker. Probably going to invest in some freehand stones soon, i prefer that actually.

CTS-XHP is another favorite. Basically, I am mediocre at best at sharpening, and rather sharpen a little more frequently than deal with something difficult. I have one knife in M390, one in CPM-M4, and one in CPM-S90V. Everything else is more of the premium but not super, like the aforementioned S35VN, S30V, CTS-XHP, and CPM-154.

In fact a large percentage are S35VN:

Heretic Manticore E
Brian Tighe and Friends Twist Tighe OTF
Southern Grind Spider Monkey
TSF Beast
Kizer Ki423
WE/FF/Massdrop Gent Select
 
A good part of the fun of knife collecting is trying different steels. I enjoy using any that perform to their maximum capability, from Buck's 420HC to S110V, powder steels, traditional stainless or high carbon. It's the entire package that makes the difference: overall design, whether new or traditional, steel, handle material, quality of construction.
 
I recently was wondering the same thing, so I tested a bunch of my knives in fairly controlled testing (as controlled as I could make it, at least, with the same edge angle, finish, edge length, cut medium, cut type, etc. until they stopped shaving and then cutting paper). I found that I wasn't able to tell much difference between my 20CV ZT and a Spyderco Tenacious when doing controlled cardboard cut testing, except for in sharpening where the Tenacious was significantly easier to sharpen. I did notice a difference with Spydercos in tool steels like 4V, though. Try it for yourself sometime and see if you notice a difference. I think a lot of the theoretical differences between steels may not be noticeable unless you're doing controlled testing.
 
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PaultheCarpenter said:
Plus you don't often get knives in more specialized steels that are designed to be put to work. They're more pocket jewelry and the most I can see anyone using them for is cutting up a cereal box to fit in the kitchen trashcan. Or the Amazon Prime box your air fryer turned up in.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder what the point is, but I realize I'm very much a certain type of user that manufacturers don't really cater toward because it's not generally where the money is to be found.
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I am there with you. I use all my knives for work, and the only artifacts of buying for pleasure are some of my old traditional patterns. They all have 1095 or a cousin of it, or something like AUS6. But my newer work knives that I started buying when I went back into the trades gave me some room (and an excuse) to try different steels. Went through the steel snob phase myself, and it was a total, complete waste of time for me as a hands on contractor. Did I need my S110V to cut a shingle in an emergency situation (please... no lectures on using a utility knife... if you are up on a steep 2 story roof and it slides off the roof and clatters onto the driveway... the knife in your pocket is called to duty) or did my RAT1 work just as well? Both times that happened the blades were damaged, but the S110V was chipped, and without grinding I cannot fix it. The RAT1 was cleaned up, run over a coarse stone, then a medium, then a fine and it was great in about 15 minutes.

IF I am going to use the knife to cut open a FedEx box, cut down a box that the printer toner came in, cut the errant thread off a coworker's button, cut up a lime, pick out a splinter, or open my mail, I like a great, hard steel. Not much chance of damaging the edge (or blade!) and I don't have to touch it up often. Little or no maintenance.

Since my knives get used for all manner of things on the job when out on site, I don't want the latest and greatest steels. Too expensive for the return. I don't need the other things that come (and won't pay for them) with the better steels, either. Bearings are a real bust on a knife that gets tar and adhesive all over it when in use, peacock tungsten scales are of no value, nor are fancy blade shapes, or "lightening deployment", or a "satisfying *thwack*" when opening. Good quality is good enough for me. And since I look at all my cutlery as being tools that need to be maintained, I sharpen, clean and lubricate all the knives in rotation regularly.

I look at all my knives that are in work rotation, and the only three splurges I made are my ZT0909 (excellent knife, S30V steel run a bit soft), my Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter CTSXHP, and my Cold Steel Bush Ranger in S35 are the only knives I carry that were at or a bit north of $110. I can't honestly say there is a quantum leap in job performance over some of my other knives that are in VG10, Kershaw's D2, or Cold Steel's oldie but goodie AUS8. But, I bought them because I like them.

The point being though, they were task oriented purchases, so design (note all knives mentioned have generous handles), locking device, blade shape (for utility), and lastly blade steel were the batting order I use.

YMMV.

Robert
 
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