How much does steel really matter?

I'd say as a consumer and recreational maker, cutting ability and maintenance desirability is 60% geometry, 20% steel composition and 20% heat treat. Geometry is the knife, bad geometry and you've made a hammer. Steel composition gives you more of a margin of error if you mess up the heat treat. But good heat treating is awaking endless potential.

With all the fanciest steels I've tried, my favourites are still classic 12C27, AEB-L, 154CM and all of their powdered and other derivatives (Nitro-V, CPM154....)The purity, cost and potential are what make them amazing to makers, so I also love them as a consumer.
 
PaultheCarpenter said:
I agree, I think a lot of it is down to marketing gimmicks and having people believe they're capable of doing more with a blade of a superior steel. Meanwhile, as work knives go, I still haven't found a worthy competitor to my trusty, and stupidly cheap Kershaw Barge.
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PaultheCarpenter said:
I primarily build sets for TV, movies, theater, events, etc. Fairly often I need to rough things up, which invariably involves gouging at stuff to achieve a certain look. I realize I'm an edge case scenario here, but trust me, I can make short work of almost any knife, which is why I'm leaning toward cheaper steels as I find they're just as tough as the more expensive steels due to their relative softness. S30 and 35V are too brittle and chip too easily.
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Marketing and hype. Let's address that first. Yes, it is a thing for sure. But I contest only because of consumer ignorance. You have knife manufacturers, and even more so, dealers, carrying on about steel nomenclatures. Then you have consumers routinely touting certain steels without ever having any understanding of that steel's intent or how it should be optimized. I mean, how many videos are out there just gushing about S110V and how awesome it is? It's gonna hold it's edge forever! Uh huh. But what about the hardness of your example? And yeah, it is great at edge retention, but at what price (toughness)? What about the geometry of the knife? How are you going to maintain it?

Geometry reigns supreme. Period. So let's move on...

Steel absolutely matters. What doesn't necessarily matter is the "latest and greatest". I would never choose high vanadium steels for the kind of work you describe. They aren't designed for that. You want toughness and S30V, S90V, and S110V aren't tough. I'd be looking at steels like 52100, K390, etc or tougher stainless steels if toughness and corrosion are your concerns. Also, without proper heat treat, you may not be getting the best out of a steel's properties and so it doesn't matter anyway.

People fail to realize the importance of the steel/heat treat/geometry triangle. People just love to say, "And this one is offered in XXX steel so you just know it's going to be awesome!" Or YouTube "reviewers" who say, "At this price point, I'd really like something better than VG10." Here's a hint, as soon as you hear a "reviewer" say that, click off their video and never watch them again.

For some tasks, I'd rather have well done 420HC than well done S90V and vice versa.

Steel nomenclature gets overly hyped without context and it leads to disappointment. Steels have intended uses and you need to understand them. And ya need to be able to sharpen them.

DeadboxHero DeadboxHero has been preaching the steel/heat treat/geometry gospel for some time. Stop listening to the hype and start listening to the testers.



 
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mendezj said:
Thank you so much. Such great work and rich info.
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I see another member beat be to linking Larrin's work.

Many great articles covering many topics on blade steels, strength, edge retention, etc, etc.
 
I think picking the right steel for the job is more important than what that steel, or steels, may be. More than one alloy may be appropriate. But it's what the maker/manufacturer actually does with that steel that is most important. Proper grind/geometry, and appropriate heat treatment, for the specified task, i.e. chef's knife, or Bowie, are what makes a good knife. Get those right, the rest SHOULD be gravy.

Properly built knives are rarely one-trick ponies. I prefer a Becker BK-5 in the kitchen, but my SOG S1 will cut steak for fajitas just as nicely, and is more fun to boot! And a good(OK, decent) 8" chef's knife makes a dandy defensive weapon, if you're not afraid of it. A cardboard and duct-tape sheath is cheap and effective.
 
Normal people get by just fine with crappy steel, so I would say it doesn't really matter much. I spent a long time with AUS8 as my EDC, never worried about edge retention until I started looking at sites like this one and watching certain YouTubers.

Does this keep me from obsessing over certain premium steels? No, it doesn't.
 
Steel, geometry and heat treat could be considered the basic triad of knife quality. (Along with design and ergonomics.)

Compromise any one of these three and the knife will suffer.

That said, any steel can cut.

The real question is what is the minimum performance that you require?

Not everyone needs a super steel and that's OK.
 
Mitchell Knives said:
Steel, geometry and heat treat could be considered the basic triad of knife quality. (Along with design and ergonomics.)

Compromise any one of these three and the knife will suffer.

That said, any steel can cut.

The real question is what is the minimum performance that you require?

Not everyone needs a super steel and that's OK.
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Great point. Yes, the steel makes a difference in ultimate performance. But, if you don't use the knife at that level, you won't notice the difference.

A lot of my knives have less than premium steels. And they work just fine for most of my needs.
 
If people only bought the knives they need, there would be far less manufacturers in business. I doubt many people would struggle to get by if they only had a simple slip joint with a 1095 carbon steel blade in their pocket to handle their daily cutting tasks.
 
I usually don't pay attention to the steel. I like multi-blade traditionals. Not a lot of options there: 440A, 7CR14MoV, 420HC, and 1095 being the most prevalent.
Honestly, they've all done what I needed over the last 60 or 61 years of the 65 and counting years I've been on this rock. (My apologies, but I do not recall if I received my first knife at age 4 or 5.) The 440A, 420HC, and 1095 have all skinned and gutted multiple deer (along with smaller critters, and a few score of fish), scraped countless gaskets, stripped untold miles of wire and cable, broke down I don't know how many tons of cardboard boxes, opened plenty of bags of concrete, feed, dirt, fertilizer, etc. between stropping's or needing put to a sharpening stone, for example.
 
I hardly carry my Spyderco Tenacious because the darn screws for the pocket clip stripped when I first touched them so I couldn't re-arrange the clip for tip-up carry (I hate tip-down carry but it's nothing to do with the speed of deployment).

But the 8Cr13MoV steel on it isn't bad at all, my reason for avoiding 8Cr13MoV knives is mainly to do with the fact that the Kershaws and CRKTs in that steel I've handled didn't feel very well made. Blade-play, ill-fitting scales, etc. Didn't have any problems with the AUS-8 on my Ontario RAT Model 1 and 2 either, and I did carry my RAT Model 1 a lot.

Now I'm carrying an American Lawman in CTS-XHP but CTS-XHP is probably the closest to a supersteel I'd bother with. So far it has been great, but so has been the 154CM on my Benchmade Griptilian.

Tl;dr. Steel isn't a huge deal for me, I avoid a certain price range rather than certain steels and it just so happens that the certain price range in question heavily uses 8Cr steel. I probably wouldn't go lower than 8Cr, AUS-8 and 12C27 though, haven't been very happy with 7Cr and Victorinox steel so far.

One more thing... 420HC on my Kershaw Link performs very well. 420HC on my Gerber Strongarm barely holds a shaving edge. Both US-made knives. Supposedly same steel type. I think heat treatment is a big thing. The Strongarm isn't totally useless, just not suited for everyday-carry. Naturally. Being a big and heavy fixed-blade and all that. (But my Ka-Bar in 1095 Cro-Van was my first and only knife to ever split hair, and it holds its shaving edge quite well, so...)
 
you only realize that it actually matters whe you join this forum and read what professionalist actually say about it, havent cared before this thread, lol
 
MBG said:
Normal people get by just fine with crappy steel, so I would say it doesn't really matter much. I spent a long time with AUS8 as my EDC, never worried about edge retention until I started looking at sites like this one and watching certain YouTubers.
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I think I'm well beyond 'normal', I'm an hard user who has destroyed a lot of different steels, and found a home with the budget steels that people write off as being bad for whatever reason.

I'm still yet to see anything from anyone that tells me why they're supposed to be bad aside from edge retention.

I have a few key points that make a knife worthwhile for me.
Firstly, a degree of toughness. D2 doesn't fit this despite being a budget steel, it's far too brittle. As are most of Crucible's powdered steels.
Secondly, ease of sharpening. S90V, S20V, S110V, ZDP and Elmax keep a fine edge for a long time, but for the life of me, I can't sharpen them back to anything like a factory edge without toiling over the blade for an hour, sure, I'd need to sharpen less often, but I don't feel it adds up. (I haven't owned knives in all these steels, only some, but I've handled them all and tried to sharpen them for friends, co-workers etc).
Lastly, price. If I spend $100+ on a knife, I tend to baby it until it gets that chip or blunts and I scuff it up trying to get a decent edge back. Also a work knife will on average last me 6 months, give or take. I tend to lose them, give them away or break them.

The downsides of budget steels are that the general quality of the knife is also budget, maybe it's not all that well designed, the fit and finish is a little trashy, the materials (screws, scales, locking mechanism, etc) aren't good quality, the action blows, the ergonomics are a nightmare, it's rarely locally manufactured and so on, and you have to navigate that minefield and find the good ones through trial and error. But they are out there. Spyderco Tenacious being an obvious starting block.

Man, I think this thread has only solidified my opinion.
 
I personally really love the CPM-3V for it's toughness. I have Cold Steel Warcraft Tanto in 3V and it's just a beautiful blade, with amazing performance. They did a very good job with it, overal design from handle to the blade itself is really nicley executed, edge geometry is also in my opinion perfect for the application and reccomended use of this blade.
One thing I dislike about 3V is sharpening it.

Other knife I really like is the Esee 3 in 1095. It's exceptionally tough while still holding decent edge. Nicley executed ergonomics and really a non nonsense functional blade.
It's also a breeze to sharpen.

Last thing I have to disagree about D2 being more brittle than other budget steels.
Despite small size, I used both, Boker GoBag and Manly Patriot for chopping. I chopped some alive branches as well as some really dry hard ones, and also intentionally smashing them into piece of hard, dry oak, even intentionally hitting a knot.
No damage, no rolls, no chips, no glinting and they also remained razor sharp after it.

I broke 9Cr18MoV, 8Cr13MoV and several 440 series knives with that same test in the past (I think I mentioned it in one of my threads) so I really cannot imagine either of those Chinese steels or 440 matching D2 toughness, unless you have decent heat treatment on that 440 and messed up heat treatment on D2.
This is just my personal experience though.
What I dislike about D2 is sharpening it.

I don't really care much about stain resistance so I can say that some plain carbon steel like 1095 is pretty much all I would need.
D2 is nice semi stainless budget EDC choice, but it's still not a steel I'd baton with.
 
Ah, I had an Ontario RAT in D2 and took a small semi-circular piece of blade off within a month or so. I tried contacting them and got no response so it probably soured my opinion and it's probably unfair to say all D2. If I was doing anything else with it, it would be a fine choice for an EDC, but it lacked for me as a work knife steel. And, as you say, it's a chore to sharpen.
 
I have owned supper steels on a lot of my knifes, but think S35VN is a grate all around steel as its easy to take care of.
 
This is a great thread........
1. I enjoy buying knives of different steels. It is fun to see how they are in working them.
2. It is also great to buy knives with new metallurgy just experience new technology. Also coatings & heat treatment.
3. The best advances in metallurgy IMO are more corrosion resistance and and edge holding.
4. Also today you can choose what balance you need in corrosion resistance, edge holding, toughness, etc.
5 It just fun......none of us need the number of knives we have.
 
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