How Much ???????????

BigNate said:
Please explain this a little. How is chopping fast going to save my life?
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Say you were to fall through some thin ice to be submersed in freezing water, you pull yourself out and you're freezing. Maybe you lost your pack in the struggle to get out of the water, and everything around you is wet from recent rain. Now you need as big a fire as you can get as quickly as you can get it before hypothermia sets in, or you simply loose the use of your fingers, and all you have left is whatever is still strapped to your belt.

....I don't claim to be an expert, but that is the kind of situation that comes to my mind. :)
 
NRaiano said:
If I had a large knife with me in a survival situation I guess I would be doing chopping and batoning however it's not very likely because very often people are unprepared when they get into that kind of situation in the first place. I'd honestly much rather have a 2-5 inch fixed blade or pocketknife in that scenario because a small knife can be much more versatile than a big one in 90% of the tasks that it would be required for. I really wouldn't mind collecting smaller sticks and logs etc for a fire because not only does it require less calories over all than carrying a large knife and then chopping, splitting etc but I would also get the chance to get to grips with my surroundings while searching for suitable wood. I'd like to see someone carve a fork for example with a 10"+ knife! That would be a laugh. I'm sure it could be done but with great difficulty.
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Valid points--
But no where in the history of mankind has anyone died from a lack of Forks.
I do not see any "survival" need for a fork.
Shelter,Fire,Water,Food,(the order depends on where you are)

I do not see how any small knife can out do a larger knife on ALL or even most of those tasks.
 
BryFry said:
Say you were to fall through some thin ice to be submersed in freezing water, you pull yourself out and you're freezing. Maybe you lost your pack in the struggle to get out of the water, and everything around you is wet from recent rain. Now you need as big a fire as you can get as quickly as you can get it before hypothermia sets in, or you simply loose the use of your fingers, and all you have left is whatever is still strapped to your belt.

....I don't claim to be an expert, but that is the kind of situation that comes to my mind. :)
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Another excellent example
 
I can see where you're coming from. I watched a guy get evacuated by heli who'd whacked his shin with a machete, and a friend in High School had a really cool scar from a hatchet incident while camping. I'm not about to say either were well trained or in a hurry but both could have been avoided I'm sure.

I like 4" to 6" generally speaking, and have not found myself wanting a bigger blade unless a hatchet would have been better yet. Most of my knife use has been food prep, trap triggers, and fire building at times. I am usually in the Sierra's ( usually quite dry) and grew up in the Pacific N.W. so most of my thought on survival are based on mtn excursions. My biggest weakness is the desert, and I really don't care to spend much time out there anyway. In my experience a slightly heavy 5" would have been perfect most of the time.
I had a snow storm blow in while backpack hunting in the Frank Church that made me duck for cover. It came in in about 35-40 minutes, from light breeze a a few flakes to howling wind blowing big flakes. I literally hiked downhill a couple thousand feet in elevation into a canyon to get out of it. That is the only time I've experienced a storm I didn't have time to prepare for. There again, the windward side of the canyon was safer, and shelter easier than staying put. Had I been busted up, it could have been bad.
 
BigNate said:
I can see where you're coming from. I watched a guy get evacuated by heli who'd whacked his shin with a machete, and a friend in High School had a really cool scar from a hatchet incident while camping. I'm not about to say either were well trained or in a hurry but both could have been avoided I'm sure.

I like 4" to 6" generally speaking, and have not found myself wanting a bigger blade unless a hatchet would have been better yet. Most of my knife use has been food prep, trap triggers, and fire building at times. I am usually in the Sierra's ( usually quite dry) and grew up in the Pacific N.W. so most of my thought on survival are based on mtn excursions. My biggest weakness is the desert, and I really don't care to spend much time out there anyway. In my experience a slightly heavy 5" would have been perfect most of the time.
I had a snow storm blow in while backpack hunting in the Frank Church that made me duck for cover. It came in in about 35-40 minutes, from light breeze a a few flakes to howling wind blowing big flakes. I literally hiked downhill a couple thousand feet in elevation into a canyon to get out of it. That is the only time I've experienced a storm I didn't have time to prepare for. There again, the windward side of the canyon was safer, and shelter easier than staying put. Had I been busted up, it could have been bad.
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EXCELLENT answer...

And besides I've seen some of your LARGE blades...

You and I would have a BLAST together.....
 
1.) Doing something quickly doesn't necessarily mean you're rushing. That's why we practice now.

2.) Saying that people don't have large tools most of the time they get into a survival situation is misleading at best. A well equipped person can get into the same predicament as someone not so well equipped, but the person who is well equipped will find themselves in an impromptu camping situation, whereas the n ot so prepared person will be in a survival situation.

3.) Being able to get a fire going fast, or make a shelter fast can save your buttocks in the cold. You MAY be able to do it faster with a saw than with a chopper (knife or otherwise), but:
a.) I suspect you have little practice with the chopper versus the saw
b.) you aren't going to outrun the chopper with the saw on a SAK, which most people like to go on about. Even with a larger pruning saw, you won't make it through a 4" sapling faster than I will with the choppers I carry, nor will you make it through a 1" branch (which most, if not all of my choppers will make it through in one swing.

Going back to my original post -- WHY do people always get caught up in this "one or the other" nonsense? People who, historically, LIVED in the wilderness always chose a chopper and a smaller slicer as a minimum. Why is that so hard to understand?
 
G'day William

WILLIAM.M said:
All of us like to think the knives we carry can do the tasks we require of them.

My question is this

In regards to a Survival Wilderness knife--

#1:How much Chopping do you think you would be doing ---???

2:How much Cutting???

3:How much Battoning??

4:How much Skinning??

I like Choppers but would not feel underknifed if I was in a situation where I did not have one.

I feel that a bigger blade can do what a smaller blade can do--better than a smaller blade can attempt to do what a bigger blade can.

However---I feel that in a Survival situation(broke ankle during solo hunting for example)-that you would not be doing a lot of chopping.But in other situations--the ability to chop well and fast might save your life.

What do you think you will be doing the most with your Survival knife of the 4 Tasks above??

If it's #2--what will you be cutting???

If it's chopping---what will you be chopping??

Your thoughts??
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1. Not much at all (if any). Bear in mind I know how to reduce firewood into smaller sizes without chopping.

Lazywaytotrimfirewood.jpg




2. Depends on the food & equipment I take with me (please bear in mind I like to eat well and know what edible vegetation in my local area is available at various time of the year ) :D

Harvestingstingingnettles1.jpg




3. When you consider the nature of the kindling I have available (abundant in wild areas that see very little if any "traffic") I would have to say that honestly, the only Battoning I do is when I do a review of a knife and don't won't the "Battoning is essential for an outdoor knife" group to not disregard a knife just because they don't see it being battoned :D

Gradesofkindling1-1.jpg



[youtube]Jkpn1_SaKvc[/youtube]


There are times when the only wood that is available to me is soaking wet. But then again I know how to light a self sustaining fire with wet wood :D

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4. This ability is important for me as a lot of my outdoor trips are essentially hunting trips (although I'm versatile enough to turn them into "Bushcrafting trips" if game animals are scarce :D ). Let me know if you want to see the youtube links showing animals being "processed" :D

I have Never taken a knife designed as a "chopper" & can't say I have ever felt the need for one (but, bear in mind I know how to use a hatchet "without being overly concerned with how dangerous they are" :D )

[youtube]Kn-cyXPAjzg[/youtube]



Bear in mind that others milage may vary, especially depening on how they use what is available & how many others have been through the area and used the resources that "Mother" can provide :thumbup:





Kind regards
Mick
 
Great Answers Mick and Cpl

The purpose of my question was to get people to think about what they carry and why

We all have to find what works for us

Appreciate both of you taking the time to reply to my question

Dr.Bill
 
SouthernCross said:
G'day William



1. Not much at all (if any). Bear in mind I know how to reduce firewood into smaller sizes without chopping.



2. Depends on the food & equipment I take with me (please bear in mind I like to eat well and know what edible vegetation in my local area is available at various time of the year ) :D



3. When you consider the nature of the kindling I have available (abundant in wild areas that see very little if any "traffic") I would have to say that honestly, the only Battoning I do is when I do a review of a knife and don't won't the "Battoning is essential for an outdoor knife" group to not disregard a knife just because they don't see it being battoned :D


There are times when the only wood that is available to me is soaking wet. But then again I know how to light a self sustaining fire with wet wood :D


4. This ability is important for me as a lot of my outdoor trips are essentially hunting trips (although I'm versatile enough to turn them into "Bushcrafting trips" if game animals are scarce :D ). Let me know if you want to see the youtube links showing animals being "processed" :D

I have Never taken a knife designed as a "chopper" & can't say I have ever felt the need for one (but, bear in mind I know how to use a hatchet "without being overly concerned with how dangerous they are" :D )


Bear in mind that others milage may vary, especially depening on how they use what is available & how many others have been through the area and used the resources that "Mother" can provide :thumbup:





Kind regards
Mick
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This is the best answer I've seen yet. Well, the best one that mirrors my thoughts and experiences anyways.

With all the time I've spent outdoors, I have never wished I had a bigger knife. There is nothing that can't be accomplished with a ~4" knife and a little know-how.
 
Personally, I feel confident I can get by with any sized knife.......or God forbid, no knife. When I reach for a knife though, I generally grab the larger chopper types. Just my preference. I like the longer reach and larger useable edge length. For a survival situation, I won't be doing much fine work such as carving spoons or whittling although I can make those type of cuts with a large blade too. I would be cutting poles for shelter and firewood. Traps might be made if the suituation dictates it and I can easily make the cuts needed with my large blade. Another thing to add in as a consideration is something I have seen in documentaries of machete using cultures. I see a lot of their smaller knives are made from broken machetes. IF a blade breaks in the woods it might be beneficial to still have useable sized pieces of sharp steel about :) I know that is a stretch but if life got that bad, I would at least hope to "pick up the pieces" and get back to work.
 
Shoots! Mr. Siegle beat me to the punch! But that's what makes this such a great topic - everyone has such different interpretations of the question. I happen to like to carry a pretty big knife - i enjoy having it, even if i'm riding the mountain bike, or in a situation where every ounce counts, i'll squander 2 lbs on a beasty blade cause that's how i roll. Ok, so one "problem" with survival emergencies is that we never plan to get into them (except of course for training which is highly reccommended!), so by nature we can't plan for them. I'm glad i know how to stay alive with just a folder, god forbid it ever came to that. I can "survive" quite comfortably with a big blade (i usually carry a Ranger RD7 custom bowie, or a Busse HOGFSH, or a Bill Siegle Raw Hoodlum, Scrapyard LE Dogfather, etc, etc.), make a nice shelter if i'm in the Rockies, assuming that's where i'm trying to survive. If im out-of-state, in unfamilliar territory, then that's a better "survival" scenario, being as i would be even less prepared/ able to plan ahead -- so i want a knife that does everything well. Since that knife doesn't exist, as previous responses demonstrate, i have to compromise and take a knife with me nearly everywhere (presuming i can survive in a city or town without a chopper (i know - presuming a lot depending on the city in question)) when travelling away from civilization or developed country, a knife which is as versitile as possible. This is why, for me, the big knife goes everywhere. I never know when the situation will emerge where i will have to survive outdoors, but if and when it does i want my knife. And i know, with my luck, the one time i leave it behind, i will end up in the middle of nowhere alone, disoriented, with the sun going down and a variety of ways to die or make myself miserable at my disposal. Right, so all i can do is carry the knife (adding more survival equipment as the likelyhood of needing said equipment increases) and hope for the best. Thanks Bill - good topic, lad, and as usual, you've surreptitiously urged me to think about worst case scenarios and my preparedness therefor. Peace!
 
But Bill, sorry-- i got a little carried away--
To answer your question, in my neck of the woods, where it's potentially winter all year 'round, i'd say my blade would be doing 60% chopping, 30% cutting, 5% batonning, hopefully 0% skinning/butchering, since i'm a vegetarian (don't misunderstand me, i have little problem eating whatever necessary to keep my strength up, hopefully if necessary nothing more than fish and/or grubbs). Gotta have that protein!
Chopping would be dry wood for fire, live branches for pine-bough shelter (downright cozy if properly executed!), possibly game. Cutting, EVERYthing... roots to make rope/lashing, wooden tools, again, some unfortunate animal(s)... Batonning? I'm of the "only rarely" school, probably because i'm of the "big freakin knife" school. but sure, to use rain-soaked wood as firewood, or for large splitting tasks in general. the other 5% of the time i'm guessing i might be using my blade as a draw-knife for peeling bark, or whittling, "to make the time more easy passin'"(Dylan)... also, fwiw, i've found a nice strip of flattened Aspen bark makes a decent strop to keep the wood chips flying... And the inside of the bark, when freshly peeled/ wet and rubbed with fine sand and then pressed or burnished to imbed the sand, can be used when a more abrasive strop is needed...
 
Mr/Siegle and Kevin( Hari-Kiri-Yogi)

Hard to argue with either of you...and only a fool would try to tell you what works for you--does not work.

We all have to find what works for us

So get out there and TEST your gear!!!!
 
stingray4540 said:
This is the best answer I've seen yet. Well, the best one that mirrors my thoughts and experiences anyways.

With all the time I've spent outdoors, I have never wished I had a bigger knife. There is nothing that can't be accomplished with a ~4" knife and a little know-how.
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Let me understand your point...

Everything I can do with a 8-10" blade you can do with a 4" blade???
 
Let me ask another prudent question, both to the OP and those who answer. What if survival is only the beginning? What if (insert terrible apocalyptic scenario) happens and the world is pushed back from the technological threshold we stand at now. What if you (we) need to rebuild? Think that is a totally IMPOSSIBLE scenario? It's not.

However, for the sake of non-argument, what if it is JUST a survival scenario?. But, what if a "couple of days" turns into weeks, months, or longer for ANY reason. War, Pandemics, there are potentially unlimited reasons to stay "bugged out" in certain scenarios. What do you take in any of these instances? What can help with rebuilding (and ZOMBIES).

Possibilities. That is what the large blade provides. Even if it wasn't used. I like the comfort of having a very versatile TOOL with me. These are all personal choices. These are mine:

For me: I would like one large blade and one small one please. With a side of firesteel and some other basic equipment. Every time. Acquiring skill with a large blade is enjoyable for me. And because I do carry one, I use it A LOT, same with the small blade.
 
WILLIAM.M said:
Let me understand your point...

Everything I can do with a 8-10" blade you can do with a 4" blade???
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Well, what can your 8-10" blade accomplish that can't be accomplished with a 4" blade?

A different technique may be necessary, but in the end, the task can get accomplished.

Southern Cross pretty much illustrated it as well as anyone could. I don't need a 10" knife to collect fire wood, build a shelter, or skin a rat...
 
stingray4540 said:
Well, what can your 8-10" blade accomplish that can't be accomplished with a 4" blade?

A different technique may be necessary, but in the end, the task can get accomplished.

Southern Cross pretty much illustrated it as well as anyone could. I don't need a 10" knife to collect fire wood, build a shelter, or skin a rat...
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No Sir--you do not.

But I could build a shelter in 1/5th the time with a big knife than I could with a small one.And no way in hell are you going to build a shelter of equal size with a 4" blade.(Not possible)

Try your 4" blade on some thick Mesquite tree--you will not chop or baton it like you think you will.

What works for you in California might not work at all here in Texas(and the reverse is also true)

Again--we all have to decide on what works for us.

and I can skin a Rat better with a 8" blade than I can build a shelter with a 4" blade.(I can also dig better,pry better,and chop better with one)

If you and your Hunting buddy are out on a trip and have to build a shelter fast----you going to use a 4" blade if a 8" blade was available??

The question is not do you NEED a chopper--but what tasks do you see yourslef doing if you needed to use a knife to survive.
 
It depends a ton on your environment-in Wisconsin Northwoods you can find a plethora of perfect dead hardwood laying on the ground for shelter construction, complex carving and firewood. Here in the high desert you're waking at the base of sagebrush or cutting down a small locust to get your firewood, so limiting yourself to a small 4 inch bushcrafter is stupid.
 
G'day Dr Bill

WILLIAM.M said:
....We all have to find what works for us
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For what it's worth, let me say that there is real wisdom in this comment :thumbup::thumbup:

Way too much "internet content' involves looking for the "condom approach to life" (ie one size fits all :D )




Kind regards
Mick
 
SouthernCross said:
G'day Dr Bill



For what it's worth, let me say that there is real wisdom in this comment :thumbup::thumbup:

Way too much "internet content' involves looking for the "condom approach to life" (ie one size fits all :D )




Kind regards
Mick
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I agree with your statement Mick as well as the one above it from PayetteRucker

and you gotta admit---I do post questions that get people to think about what they need and why

Appreciate all of you that took the time to comment
 
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