How Much ???????????

[ROCK6]

For Bill's OP, it really depends on the sitaution, but as someboyd already mentioned, if I'm going to be stuck outside overnight, shelter and fire would be a priority.

With some different techniques, a smaller blade can do some large blade tasks, just not as efficient (the reverse is the same as well). I know the discussion of "speed" was mentioned and it's especially important in some situations, but I would use the term "efficient" mor than speed.

I think the value of a larger blade come into play when you need to duplicate several items like a factory assembly line; sharpened poles/stakes, trap parts, splitting, etc.

"Need" is such a strong word, but I do concede that skill is the true need and the tool can be used in several different ways to accomplish the task.

ROCK6

 

[WILLIAM.M]

For Bill's OP, it really depends on the sitaution, but as someboyd already mentioned, if I'm going to be stuck outside overnight, shelter and fire would be a priority.

With some different techniques, a smaller blade can do some large blade tasks, just not as efficient (the reverse is the same as well). I know the discussion of "speed" was mentioned and it's especially important in some situations, but I would use the term "efficient" mor than speed.

I think the value of a larger blade come into play when you need to duplicate several items like a factory assembly line; sharpened poles/stakes, trap parts, splitting, etc.

"Need" is such a strong word, but I do concede that skill is the true need and the tool can be used in several different ways to accomplish the task.

ROCK6

Very Well Said Bro:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[WILLIAM.M]

Bttt----

anyone else have an opinion>>>???

 

[kgd]

This is one of those posts that had I written it a year earlier it would be completely different.

I love the idea of chopping and have experimented with big knives and chopper blades but in the end I have found that I just don't really appreciate carrying long knives. In particular, I find knives that are balanced weight forward to enhance their chopping, and this certainly does enhance that aspect of their performance, but find that it detracts from their ease of cutting and ability to control the point of the knife. So basically, chopping isn't something I do too much of unless the activity is geared that way, e.g. making a pile of firewood for the family big blazing fire situation. I'm more likely to choose smaller wood and render down with a saw or use Mick's caveman rendering method

Batoning - well you guys know me...I tend to do this. In a self critical analysis though, I have to agree with RR, that the primary use of batoning that I do is making fireboards. I sometimes process firewood using the same pieces that formed part of my fireboard using batoning as all the materials are there. As much as I stand up and defend the technique, I don't go bulling my way through woods baton splitting things all that much.

Cutting. A primary use of the knife for me. From cutting bent over saplings, shaping bowdrill spindle and kit, making fuzz sticks, making tent pegs, practicing at trap making, cutting food, harvesting plants, cutting vines/water vines, cutting/scraping inner bark for cordage, cutting rope (and then tying them pieces together again ). Cutting is what I do most with a knife and I like the edge to reflect that.

Skinning. Not much action there for me as I'm not a hunter at present. I do fish and fillet fish. I certainly prefer a dedicated fillet knife for filleting fish, but I've done it with my Breeden pathfinder on a few occasions. I'm just thinking in my head how that nice Brian Andrew's bushcrafter of mine would really suck at fish filleting (not a scandi activity for sure!), but it is a great knife otherwise. Also, if I'm in a survival situation and catch a fish, I won't be filleting it. Off with the head, gut it and cook it so I can eat all the meat to be had. No real finesse needed in that method. I suspect in survival game processing the same goes. You don't need an optimal tool to process game.

Prying - not mentioned in the OP, but I do find myself doing a bit of prying in the woods. This is used during harvesting fatwood, or working out tinder fungus nodules from birch trees (they really have to be worked out from their hold). I'm often poking my point into wood and prying a bit out just to see the character and quality/softness of the wood. I do like a mid-sized 6-7" blade of about 3/16" thick for this activity. This constitutes my beater knife and does double duty for kitchen prep/camp chores.

 

[texastonydobbs]

All of us like to think the knives we carry can do the tasks we require of them.

My question is this

In regards to a Survival Wilderness knife--

#1:How much Chopping do you think you would be doing ---???

2:How much Cutting???

3:How much Battoning??

4:How much Skinning??

I like Choppers but would not feel underknifed if I was in a situation where I did not have one.

I feel that a bigger blade can do what a smaller blade can do--better than a smaller blade can attempt to do what a bigger blade can.

However---I feel that in a Survival situation(broke ankle during solo hunting for example)-that you would not be doing a lot of chopping.But in other situations--the ability to chop well and fast might save your life.

What do you think you will be doing the most with your Survival knife of the 4 Tasks above??

If it's #2--what will you be cutting???

If it's chopping---what will you be chopping??

Your thoughts??

Survival situation :
Baton & Chopping & Skinning, None.....
Cutting I would think so..... I always have 1 folder & FB .

 

[R.C.Reichert]

Well, if I am in the situation, I would want a fire, and a shelter. (The shelter part of this is assuming I did not break my ankle)

#1:How much Chopping do you think you would be doing ---???
I would be chopping small trees/branches to make some sort of shelter. Also, if the wood is all wet around me possible a few small dead standing trees.

2:How much Cutting???
Cutting wood to pass time/make a spoon or something of the sort when I am tired.

3:How much Battoning??
Depends on the temperature and how wet the wood it. If it is damp at all, a lot of it. If everything is bone dry, I wouldn't need to waste the energy to baton anything.

4:How much Skinning??
Little to none, depending on how long I would be out for. If anything, it would be small, like a fish or possible a small 4 legged furry critter if I got lucky.

I like this answer too! If anything, I would want a larger knife to chop some poles to make a shelter. Kinda hard to "cut" a 2" thick pole with a small blade if you don't also have an axe or hatchet. A large blade would be more effective also at hacking limbs and leaves off off trees to use as a cover for your shelter. With a large blade you could gather firewood much quicker. In general, a large blade can do anything a small blade can do, depending on how adept you are at using it, but a small blade can't do everything a large blade can do. That's how I sort of see it anyways. But that's my impression as to why people with small blades carry a hatchet or axe, because their small knife is inadequate. Of couse I also like smaller knives and hatchets/axes and they too have their place too, so nothing against them.

 

[WILLIAM.M]

3 Great Answers

Keep em coming

 

[hiwa]

Hi Will . I just came back from a bush trip ( 4 days) , and brought a bag of knives. I did all sorts of stuff like batonning , opening rations , shaving feather sticks , cutting fish heads off ,rope cutting ,digging post holes , and the list goes on. I had a Cold Steel SRK ( aus-8a) ,Pendleton Hunter , Buck Vantage , Becker BK-9 , Esee 4 , and an Esee 5 , and a Becker Necker. ( I travel light)
The knife I used the most by far was the Esee 5. The next closest was the BK-9. Really , I could of left the BK-9 at home because I had a Laplander saw with me. Far less work than chopping logs. Buck 'em up with the saw , split the heck out of them with the Esee5. Done. Then slice up dinner.... fish , salami ,cheese ,bread , etc. etc. Built a shelter frame , then smeared my bread with butter ,all with the same knife. Need to stoke the fire ? Just start splittin' logs ( while sitting down !)
Beat the living tar out of that knife , then use it to remove a sliver from my thumb.
Yeah ,it weighs 1 lb. So what. It can do anything and NOT fail. Now don't get me wrong ,I always bring smaller and larger knives with me, but the Esee-5 ( and even the 4 if pressed) can do it all for me. Same goes for my BK-2. Beat it through knots and no edge damage. A few strokes of my Eze-Lap sportsmans rod , and back in business.
No offense to other knife owners ,but I ditched my Moras and SAK's years ago for bush use.. When I go in the bush , I want heavy metal.

 

[Iboschi]

I think defining a survival situation is key here Dr Bill. How long will you be out. A few days? Possibly much longer? Are you bugging out in a pandemic or WW III? I consider what blade I'll need if our way of life begins to disintegrate entirely. In a real 2-5 day scenario, no knife at all is probably going to be fine. However, we like knives here on BF so I understand the drill.

However, I tend to think in "worst case scenarios". My prior answer spoke to some of the "what if's" of survival and I think it's pertinent to consider whatever you take being your last knife until blacksmithing re-emerges in whatever dark times could befall humanity (supposing that could take YEARS). This might be considered pessimistic, but I'd rather be prepared than unprepared or under-prepared in a long term scenario. Large knives DO it for me. The overall utility and usefulness outweighs that of a sub 5 inch blade. Consider my prior post. What would you pick if you were in a LONG term survival scenario. Months or more before you are reconnected with a part of whatever culture might be left in the world. I would take a large and a small knife. I piggyback mine, so I'll have both. But if one HAD to go, I would let the small one go before the large one.

Let me ask another prudent question, both to the OP and those who answer. What if survival is only the beginning? What if (insert terrible apocalyptic scenario) happens and the world is pushed back from the technological threshold we stand at now. What if you (we) need to rebuild? Think that is a totally IMPOSSIBLE scenario? It's not. Survival isn't always transient. Civilization may not be there when/if you return.

However, for the sake of non-argument, what if it is JUST a survival scenario?. But, what if a "couple of days" turns into weeks, months, or longer for ANY reason. War, Pandemics, there are potentially unlimited reasons to stay "bugged out" in certain scenarios. What do you take in any of these instances? What can help with rebuilding (and ZOMBIES).

Possibilities. That is what the large blade provides. Even if it wasn't used. I like the comfort of having a very versatile TOOL with me. These are all personal choices. These are mine:

For me: I would like one large blade and one small one please. With a side of firesteel and some other basic equipment. Every time. Acquiring skill with a large blade is enjoyable for me. And because I do carry one, I use it A LOT, same with the small blade.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

Some people may not like this and I appologize (it's just my opinion), but I've always thought of the Swiss Army Knives with all their fandangled little gadgets were more of a novelty item. Putting a fork, sissors, nail file, tweezers, wine bottle opener, and god knows what else on a knife just seems to me more like a survival kit made for a woman's purse. They may as well put a nail clipper and a hair comb on there as well. Of course there are some big knives that are kinda novelty items too, like the Rambo knife, but my preference is for the historical type knives. Knives that were large, rugged, and you could survive in the wilderness with.

 

[go2ndAmend]

At the risk of being labeled a heretic, I will confess that for 99% of my woods time I carry only an F1 and my SAK. This system has served me well from the Sierras to the Rockies for many years. If I am going real deep into the woods in the late Fall I will also bring my GB mini hatchet in order to make a shelter fast. I don't ever expect to chop, I cut cordage frequently, I rarely baton, and use my F1 for skinning deer/elk and gutting fish several times a year. I don't in anyway begrudge what others use, this is just the system that has worked well for me.

 

[RoyalM]

I guess I fall into the big or bigger knife category. Something like a Busse SAR8 would be my choice. Kind of a jack of all trades with a little extra in the chopping department.

For me a survival situation would involve making a shelter, fire and then possibly food. if I didn't need to do these three things it becomes an uncomfortable night out rather than survival.

To that end the need to get out of the weather would probably be the biggest thing for me, fire to conserve my energy would be next and food last. Water is not going to be a problem here in Scotland.

For a shelter i'm not going to be felling trees but would need some decent sized branches or smaller trees. I follow the rule of cutting nothing bigger than my wrist in diameter. Saves energy and time in the long run.

Fire where I live probably means batoning at some point to get some dry wood. So I'll need a decent length and thickness of blade for that.

Lastly food. I'm more likely to be trying to eat vegetation than animals but what game there is would probably be small and best caught using traps. To this end I will need to be able to do some finer cutting.

Skinning would be last on my list as I can go for days without food and traps aren't guaranteed.

This is a very specific plan though for surviving in Scotland. I would of course change these priorities if I was in a different environs.

 

[WILLIAM.M]

Excellent answers

Keep them coming

 

[Hawkings]

First off...I study two different survival situations. One where it is ok to make a lot of noise and we are hoping to be found by pretty much anyone. Or a survival situation where we are performing E&E as in a combat environment or "Post-Katrina" type event where we are trying not to draw the attention of specific groups of people.

In a "normal" survival situation where I'm not trying to avoid the wrong attention I'd definitely want at least a heavy seven inch blade...something the size of my A-1... to do some chopping with maybe something a little larger. Especially if I am injured.

In an E&E situation I am going to be making as little noise as possible so something in the 4.5 to 5 inch range...something like my RC4, Rogue Wolf, Delta Foxtrot would be fine by me.

Primary cutting for me would be fire craft, making traps & triggers and such, food prep, and shelter materials but I don't live in the frozen north I want all my knives to work with skinning...that's why I no longer have any Tanto blades.

I've often heard that the American Tanto will not work skinning an animal, but few I have talked to have tried to skin an animal with an American Tanto blade.

I'm thinking you might be one of the few who tried it out on your own, before making up your mind and abandoning the Tanto.
Could you tell a little about that please ?

 

[ROCK6]

Some people may not like this and I appologize (it's just my opinion), but I've always thought of the Swiss Army Knives with all their fandangled little gadgets were more of a novelty item. Putting a fork, sissors, nail file, tweezers, wine bottle opener, and god knows what else on a knife just seems to me more like a survival kit made for a woman's purse. They may as well put a nail clipper and a hair comb on there as well. Of course there are some big knives that are kinda novelty items too, like the Rambo knife, but my preference is for the historical type knives. Knives that were large, rugged, and you could survive in the wilderness with.

I think the locking blade SAK's (OHT, Rucksack, Outrider, etc.) are actually excellent knives for the outdoors. I'm not saying they are a do-all knife, but can handle the majority of cutting tasks. Even Ron Hood who is a big-knife proponent always has his Rucksack model "dummy" corded to him; SAK's are great complementary knives to larger blades...

I've often heard that the American Tanto will not work skinning an animal, but few I have talked to have tried to skin an animal with an American Tanto blade.

I'm thinking you might be one of the few who tried it out on your own, before making up your mind and abandoning the Tanto.
Could you tell a little about that please ?

My son and I just had this conversation. The appeal of the "American Tanto" is its looks. These types of blades are still functional sharp edges, just less efficient for some tasks. I have a few, but they don't see too much outdoors use. The thinner models (I have an Aikuchi from Bud Nealy) do pretty good at skinning and they posess enough belly for larger animals, but I haven't skinned anything larger than a rabbit. I you were determined, you could make any quality tanto work in the outdoors.

ROCK6

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

I'm no expert on anything, having given that disclaimer here's my useless opinion!

I can understand wanting to make fire and shelter quickly if you've just fallen into water.

Lets say your canoe turns over then along with your wet clothes you'll have to swim to shore with a pound of metal hanging from your belt. I don't know how practical that is?

Also would having a long knife on your belt be particularly comfortable sitting in a canoe? (I suppose it depends what type of sheath you have).

But you should stop if you're lost and make fire and shelter way before hypothermia sets in. To keep pushing and wait for the first signs of it then try doing something "fast" is a bit silly.

Every time I go out I'd much rather have a survival bag on me than a chopper of any kind. But then I don't live in the wilderness so my experience would be totally different to yours.

 

[RMLamey]

I would say you will do some chopping, hell when i spend time in the woods hunting I do alot of chopping... clearing firing lanes, clearing me a spot for my blind, actually building my blind etc. If im camping the actual clearing of my site, firewood etc.....

Maybe Im the odd man out, but I chop more than anything else, and whittle when im bored.

 

[bearcut]

For a survival period of 2 weeks.
From greatest to least:
#1 Cutting- I would be doing this on a regular basis.
#2 Skinning-If I manage to trap something, I will want to skin it.
#3 Batoning- Why do I need to do this? Aren’t there any branches/twigs/deadfall around? Unless I absolutely have to, there is no need to baton. I am not camping, I am in a survival situation.
#4 Chopping- Uses WAY too much energy. I’m not out here to build a log cabin. I’m not out here to “have fun”. There are lots of other ways to break down large pieces of wood, without even using a knife. See SouthernCross’s post for examples. Also, there are lots of ways to build a shelter without chopping down trees.

That said, I do have some 10” knives that I pair with 3” blades. The primary usage for the large blades however, is not chopping. A large blade will be used to snap cut, or cleave, more than chop.

Bottom line, I could survive with a 3” blade if that’s all I had.

 

[WILLIAM.M]

I'm no expert on anything, having given that disclaimer here's my useless opinion!

I can understand wanting to make fire and shelter quickly if you've just fallen into water.

Lets say your canoe turns over then along with your wet clothes you'll have to swim to shore with a pound of metal hanging from your belt. I don't know how practical that is?

Also would having a long knife on your belt be particularly comfortable sitting in a canoe? (I suppose it depends what type of sheath you have).

But you should stop if you're lost and make fire and shelter way before hypothermia sets in. To keep pushing and wait for the first signs of it then try doing something "fast" is a bit silly.

Every time I go out I'd much rather have a survival bag on me than a chopper of any kind. But then I don't live in the wilderness so my experience would be totally different to yours.

If you fall thru Ice--getting as fire started FAST is going to make a huge difference..

And when you are trained doing something FAST is not dangerous---

Don't confuse FAST with Sloppy---be it a Chopper or anything else

and your Idea of carrying a survival bag is excellent--but the question of this post was what TASK do you think you will be doing the most of with your survival knife.

And I am an expert in many things--One of them is getting people to think about what they carry and why...

Tell US what you put in your Bag in the hopes it will save a life.

Thanks

Dr.Bill

(and Matt--I also chop like a woodpecker on Crack when I go out-so I understand your point)

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Lets say your canoe turns over then along with your wet clothes you'll have to swim to shore with a pound of metal hanging from your belt. I don't know how practical that is?

I don't want to call you out on this, but I hear this objection a lot. I assume you've never done it (saying you don't live in the wilderness and all)?

Are that many people really that weak of a swimmer?

Also, anyone who's been canoeing more than once or twice knows to use dry bags. Hell, even in the military, we were issued (crappy) dry bags with our ALICE packs.

People who make canoe packs (Duluth Pack, Frost River, etc) include a very long 6 mil plastic bag for use as a dry bag. Why do I bring this up? Because not only holding your stuff and keeping it dry, they also hold air. That's right, you grab your pack and use it as a flotation device. So even if you're a weak swimmer, grabbing your pack can actually make it much easier to get to shore.


As for doing things fast, it's been said before and like William just said, don't confuse fast with sloppy.

Plus, also like William said, if it's cold, especially if you fall in cold or freezing water, building enough of a fire fast enough is about your only hope.