How Much ???????????

[Yorkshire Boy]

If you fall thru Ice--getting as fire started FAST is going to make a huge difference..

And when you are trained doing something FAST is not dangerous---

Don't confuse FAST with Sloppy---be it a Chopper or anything else

and your Idea of carrying a survival bag is excellent--but the question of this post was what TASK do you think you will be doing the most of with your survival knife.

And I am an expert in many things--One of them is getting people to think about what they carry and why...

Tell US what you put in your Bag in the hopes it will save a life.

Thanks

Dr.Bill

(and Matt--I also chop like a woodpecker on Crack when I go out-so I understand your point)

I can't really agree because I think doing anything fast can be inherently dangerous, especially when you're doing it under physical and mental stress.

I don't walk on iced ponds/canals/lakes, generally speaking it's not safe to. By not doing so it's simple avoidance of a life threatening situation.

In the UK it's unlikely that you would have to survive for more than 24hrs. If someone is involved in an accident then keeping the rain and wind off them is incredibly important, I wouldn't think about a chopper for that. Weight for weight a foil/plastic blanket is far easier to carry and use.

Lots of bandages and absorbent materials (such as panty liners) in case someone gets a major bleed i.e if they cut themselves while chopping in a hurry! (That's a poor attempt at a joke folks)

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

I don't want to call you out on this, but I hear this objection a lot. I assume you've never done it (saying you don't live in the wilderness and all)?

Are that many people really that weak of a swimmer?

Also, anyone who's been canoeing more than once or twice knows to use dry bags. Hell, even in the military, we were issued (crappy) dry bags with our ALICE packs.

People who make canoe packs (Duluth Pack, Frost River, etc) include a very long 6 mil plastic bag for use as a dry bag. Why do I bring this up? Because not only holding your stuff and keeping it dry, they also hold air. That's right, you grab your pack and use it as a flotation device. So even if you're a weak swimmer, grabbing your pack can actually make it much easier to get to shore.


As for doing things fast, it's been said before and like William just said, don't confuse fast with sloppy.

Plus, also like William said, if it's cold, especially if you fall in cold or freezing water, building enough of a fire fast enough is about your only hope.

I'm not saying fast is sloppy, just that if you make a mistake you're in deep crap.

I've swum in cold water enough to know that you get very tired very quickly, The Irish Sea and The North Sea are not the Bahamas. I've never swum fully clothed in the dead of winter nor would I want to.

I presume that if you make it to shore with your dry bags the first thing you'll be doing is getting out of your wet clothes and into dry ones. Then getting out of the wind, then getting a fire started and climbing into your sleeping bag...

Sure, if you have no dry clothes then getting a fire going, taking your clothes off and getting them dry is imperative. I'm not arguing that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCkT8cwJPZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZbNDnuH-jA&feature=related

 

[RMLamey]

Chopping with the proper knife in the proper way uses LESS energy than if you make a half hearted attempt, or at least it does in my case. If I chop a small tree down in 3 or 4 wacks that uses way less than meandering around the task. In other words, you can let a big knife DO the work for you, and use much less of your own energy than if you have to tackle the same task with a small knife, which would require much more energy from YOU.

I think its much more important to be familiar with your knife and its uses/limitations than focusing on what kind of cutting methods you may use.

All I really know is I like a big knife in the woods, and use it often when im there.

 

[WILLIAM.M]

Chopping with the proper knife in the proper way uses LESS energy than if you make a half hearted attempt, or at least it does in my case. If I chop a small tree down in 3 or 4 wacks that uses way less than meandering around the task. In other words, you can let a big knife DO the work for you, and use much less of your own energy than if you have to tackle the same task with a small knife, which would require much more energy from YOU.

I think its much more important to be familiar with your knife and its uses/limitations than focusing on what kind of cutting methods you may use.

All I really know is I like a big knife in the woods, and use it often when im there.

Well said

The question in this post was what tasks do you see yourself doing in a Survival situation with your KNIFE

Some say chopping is important--others not so much(or not at all)

Makes NO difference to me what you SAY you will do

What makes a Difference to me(and better to you) is the knife you carry going to be able to do what you ask of it

Better TEST that out--BEFORE you need it.

I have tested MANY knives that did not work for me -but prior to the test I would have bet --they would.

TEST your gear

Test yourself too...

Keep the comments coming

 

[MrPan]

I'm no expert on anything, having given that disclaimer here's my useless opinion!

I can understand wanting to make fire and shelter quickly if you've just fallen into water.

Lets say your canoe turns over then along with your wet clothes you'll have to swim to shore with a pound of metal hanging from your belt. I don't know how practical that is?

Also would having a long knife on your belt be particularly comfortable sitting in a canoe? (I suppose it depends what type of sheath you have).

But you should stop if you're lost and make fire and shelter way before hypothermia sets in. To keep pushing and wait for the first signs of it then try doing something "fast" is a bit silly.

Every time I go out I'd much rather have a survival bag on me than a chopper of any kind. But then I don't live in the wilderness so my experience would be totally different to yours.

I know most people use the falling in water and getting wet thing as the main survival situation, but getting lost is what will happen more often than not. I mean MOST people go boating in the summer when it's warmer and less of a threat of freezing to death, and if something happens, it is USUALLY during day light hours anyway, and not midnight......unless you're a drug runner or something.

Even if you are out on the water, you should have some sort of PFD on. Wearing one would off set the one or two pounds of knife you might be wearing plus the 25 pounds of wet clothes that you are now sporting.

If you aren't wearing a PDF, then I think the 3 minutes without air will do you in before the cold water and lack of shelter will 3 hours later, but what the hell do I know.

I also agree with you on the stopping and building shelter before your bad situation turns into a survival situation. You're right, it is silly that people don't stop sooner. I'm not sure why people keep walking and walking when lost, but they do. I am also not sure why people wait until Dec 24th to do all their Christmas shopping, but they do and they keep doing it EVERYTIME. Go figure.

I mean why put yourself into a Christmas shopping survival mode with a bunch a crazy, stressed out, pissed off people? I have almost ALL of my shopping done right now for Christmas. Plan ahead is all I can say.



I don't want to get this thread off track, so I will answer the main question as to how much. I am going to answer it as SURVIVAL and not wilderness knife.

For me, a wilderness knife is something that you have as a back up to a larger knife. Something you have with you around camp. I wouldn't carry one while hiking myself. It just can't do some of the things I would want it to do if I was to end up in a survival situation.

Again as I have said before, I am planning on doing everything in the dark, because that is human nature to get HOME and not stay out all night unplanned.

I am not going to be making nice piles of fire wood. I will chop big chunks of wood, because in the dark, that's probably all I will be able to find for both fire and shelter. I will chop them into the smallest pieces I can lug around in the dark and maybe that means wood that's 6'' to 12'' in diameter and 5' to 10' long. I'm not cutting or breaking them into normal fire wood length. I will just burn the wood and keep pushing it into a fire. No magic and nothing high speed low drag.

I will do some cutting of branches to try and make a shelter. Maybe cut some twine as well. And maybe think about cutting my throat for being so dumb to wait until it zero dark thirty to be building fire and shelter, and wonder what they will find first, my body or their Christmas presents I have already bought and hid for them.

Batoning, maybe a little, but not the first night. I have learned a couple things when I was younger. When I finally accept the fact I'm lost, I have learned to start gathering tinder and small sticks while I am walking during the day light, and pocket them. I will also find a longer straight pole and use it for a walking stick and a support for my shelter if it comes to that. Once I have these few things in my grubby hands during day light hours, fire and shelter building is a little easier.

That's about all I really see happening with a knife in a short term survival situation.

 

[WILLIAM.M]

Bttt.........

 

[erichsen]

All of us like to think the knives we carry can do the tasks we require of them.

My question is this

In regards to a Survival Wilderness knife--

#1:How much Chopping do you think you would be doing ---???

2:How much Cutting???

3:How much Battoning??

4:How much Skinning??

I like Choppers but would not feel underknifed if I was in a situation where I did not have one.

I feel that a bigger blade can do what a smaller blade can do--better than a smaller blade can attempt to do what a bigger blade can.

However---I feel that in a Survival situation(broke ankle during solo hunting for example)-that you would not be doing a lot of chopping.But in other situations--the ability to chop well and fast might save your life.

What do you think you will be doing the most with your Survival knife of the 4 Tasks above??

If it's #2--what will you be cutting???

If it's chopping---what will you be chopping??

Your thoughts??

William,

Interesting questions, but I'm not sure I can agree with your premise about what you won't need if you find yourself with (God forbid) a broken ankle or leg.

If you are in a survival situation and you are physically injured to the point where you are hobbled, if not crawling, your first and most unpleasant duty will be to attend to the wound. The knife you carry may be called upon to cut branches and form a split for yourself, assuming you can set a badly broken bone yourself (unlikely).

I put an emphasis on chopping, slicing and hacking, as for "cutting," the aforementioned actions are all just types of cuts. Skinning in most real situations, unless you kill a large animal and THEN break an ankle, is going to be trapping game, which is likewise questionable. You have to prepare traps close to the ground for most critters and a broken ankle is going to be a big problem if you have to drop to the ground to setup a snare or dead fall and then get up again, you will also leave significant odors, including whatever is oozing from the wound to the mix. Running around between traps is less stressful then hunting, but it's not realistic if you are injured. Best to use your energy building signal fires or getting as far as you can away from where you are back to a road, river or highly visible structure.

Skinning small game, if you happen to find one (say, on an empty rural road, plenty of roadkill), is a matter of a few slits and then peeling.You can do that with almost anything that can cut, large or small knives, a hunk of metal sharpened on a rock or a sharp bit of glass or rock could do the trick. It's only big, thick skinned animals that demand a little more work to separate the skin from the inner membrane. Even deer can be encouraged to peel out of their skin under full body weight when hanging from their hooves. I don't worry about skinning knives until you get into the bigger bodied animals, say Mule Deer, Elk and Moose, large wild pigs, bear, etc.

I'd add a sharp squared off blade spine to the list, as any decent spark is hard to come by if you don't have a nice 90 degree "edge" to hit against the ferrocerium rod, or hunk of flint. Fire will save your life; cooking meals, sterilizing bandages and water, providing warmth. If you have to use your edge and have no means of restoring the edge, you could be working with a particularly dull knife assuming you lose or misplace your portable sharpening rod.

With warm regards,

-E