How thick should it be?

[David Mary]

Tough is impact resistance without fracture. Thicker is inherently tougher. This is not in dispute. But tough doesn't "mean thick". It seems axiomatic so I am struggling to find another way to explain it.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Tough does mean thick though. If everything else is equal the thicker stock and/or thicker edge/apex will be tougher. No matter the steel.

If I am wrong here someone correct me. Take any steel in any knife and make the stock thicker or edge thicker and it will be tougher than it was previously.

Any thicker knife NEEDS to be tougher, because it's going to take More force to go through your target, also dulling sooner than a thinner blade of same steel and heat treatment. (Usually)

 

[Dr Rez]

No.



Yes!

But why you think they are the same is a mystery to me, and I don't know how to untangle these two separate concepts for you.

I didnt say they were the same. I said the thicker a knife is (all else being equal) the tougher it will be. Simple as that lol

Prove me wrong with an example if you disagree.

 

[Dr Rez]

Any thicker knife NEEDS to be tougher, because it's going to take More force to go through your target, also dulling sooner than a thinner blade of same steel and heat treatment. (Usually)

Thats not really relevant to what I said. I simply stated all else being equal the thicker you make a knife (especially the edge angle) the tougher it will be.

 

[David Mary]

Dr Rez "Tough means thick" is an incorrect statement that implies you cannot have a tough blade that is thin. I agreed to the part you were correct about. Crag the Brewer also correctly pointed out that thicker means more force required to separate material.

This blade is .140" MagnaCut, and has a full height flatvex grind to about .020" behind the edge. It is not the thinnest of the stocks discussed in this thread, but relative to its size and the amount of force it can generate, it is super thin.

It stood up to ten minutes straight of this with no damage at all.

 

[David Mary]

This is a .09" thick wharncliffe full height ground to a tapered point with a bte thickness of .008" all the way to the tip.

There was no tip breakage.

 

[Dr Rez]

Dr Rez "Tough means thick" is an incorrect statement that implies you cannot have a tough blade that is thin. I agreed to the part you were correct about. Crag the Brewer also correctly pointed out that thicker means more force required to separate material.

This blade is .140" MagnaCut, and has a full height flatvex grind to about .020" behind the edge. It is not the thinnest of the stocks discussed in this thread, but relative to its size and the amount of force it can generate, it is super thin.

It stood up to ten minutes straight of this with no damage at all.

You are taking what I said out of the context. Context matters. Ill repeat this for the fourth time...


Tough does mean thick if you look at two identical blades and one is thicker in stock and/or apex than the other.


The rest of your post is just a strawman that I never made an argument for. No disrespect here but at least clarify the point you are debating first. Perhaps it is my fault for not being clear...however Iv said this four times.

edit: Misspellings

 

[Sam Wilson]

Here is what a .093" blade can take, if done properly. And a whole lot more. And a hollow handle to boot, which should have failed immediately, amirite?

Sam

 

[David Mary]

Thats not really relevant to what I said. I simply stated all else being equal the thicker you make a knife (especially the edge angle) the tougher it will be.

Of course it is relevant. The increased demand on the structure of the knife at least partially negates the practical toughness thereof when used hard, depending on the use and other factors, of course, such as geometry and heat treatment.

 

[Dr Rez]

This is a .09" thick wharncliffe full height ground to a tapered point with a bte thickness of .008" all the way to the tip.

There was no tip breakage.

Ok...? Now take that same knife and make it thicker stock and a thicker apex. It will be tougher.

 

[Dr Rez]

Of course it is relevant. The increased demand on the structure of the knife at least partially negates the practical toughness thereof when used hard, depending on the use and other factors, of course, such as geometry and heat treatment.

Perhaps you didnt see the "all else being equal" part....

 

[David Mary]

Ok...? Now take that same knife and make it thicker stock and a thicker apex. It will be tougher.

Exactly.

Perhaps it is my fault for not being clear

Yes.

Perhaps you didnt see the "all else being equal" part....

Of course I did, but the change in thickness affects every other factor as well, making the relevance of Crag's point clear.

Bottom line. "Tough is thick" is a backwards and misleading way of saying the factually correct statement of "thicker is tougher".

 

[Dr Rez]

Exactly.



Yes.



Of course I did, but the change in thickness affects every other factor as well, making the relevance of Crag's point clear.

Bottom line. "Tough is thick" is a backwards and misleading way of saying the factually correct statement of "thicker is tougher".

It wasnt just tough is thick though...it was the complete statement I made which you conveniently keep acting like wasn't part of the comment in order to keep being right for some odd reason. You are being fallacious at best, dishonest and rude at worst.

From Knife Engineering (thicker edge angle means tougher (more impact resistance):

 

[David Mary]

I acknowledged and agreed with the part you stated correctly, and corrected the part you stated incorrectly. I'm not sure what more you want from me.

 

[David Mary]

knarfeng I fear for the direction this thread is heading in.

 

[Dr Rez]

knarfeng I fear for the direction this thread is heading in.

Then be respectful and don't antagonize. I have no issue with you if we can debate without being rude and condescending in our replies. Running to a mod awful quick....just be respectful.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I think the misunderstanding here is that Dr. Rez is talking about a thicker edge? And David and Craig are speaking to thicker stock?

Is this correct Dr. Rez?

 

[Dr Rez]

I think the misunderstanding here is that Dr. Rez is talking about a thicker edge? And David and Craig are speaking to thicker stock?

Is this correct Dr. Rez?

Well technically both, but each contribute to being tough in different ways. As mentioned a thicker apex is going to significantly increase impact resistance for example, while a thicker stock would increase the blades ability to withstand snapping or bending when using it for those dirty (probably non knife) jobs many of us love to do.

 

[David Mary]

Dr Rez if you feel I have antagonized you or disrespected you, I sincerely apologize. Nothing I said was meant to do either of those things. You said correct me if I'm wrong, and that is what I did. Perhaps my directness was taken as rudeness. It was not meant to be. And I have agreed every time you restated that thicker is tougher, so I don't see how you think I am ignoring that point.

 

[Dr Rez]

Dr Rez if you feel I have antagonized you or disrespected you, I sincerely apologize. Nothing I said was meant to do either of those things. You said correct me if I'm wrong, and that is what I did. Perhaps my directness was taken as rudeness. It was not meant to be. And I have agreed every time you restated that thicker is tougher, so I don't see how you think I am ignoring that point.

Fair enough, I think our different communication styles led to me thinking you were intentionally trying to be condescending. I in no way meant to be so myself if I was.

And I acknowledge my phrasing of the initial point/claim could have been much clearer. Lets move forward as best friends and or companions for life. Ok maybe just as cohabitant forum members. Thank you for being reasonable.

Ps: Christ that picture I attached made me see how dirty my finger nails were. Not good....