how to win friends and influence knifemaking - maybe

I often brag on to friends about this forum. A lot of people ask me if I've seen "Forged in Fire" since that's how most of the public sees knife making. Since I don't have cable, I tell them I've only seen a few episodes, but that the forum I'm on has several contestants who have graciously helped me with questions and critiqued my work (namely Salem). It's a great community in that regard. Even the many makers who have forgotten more about knife making then I will likely ever learn will help me out. Here's an amusing story explaining what I thing the OP is getting out. This didn't happen in this forum, but a related issue. I know a guy through my son's scout troop. He was discussing "Samurai" swords with me and another guy who knows i make knife shaped objects. The "sword expert" is going on about how the finest swords have a soft core with a hard outer wrap of steel. I think he was talking about san mai. Anyway, I explain to him that it's the opposite, since when you create the bevel, the inner layer of harder steel is exposed and thus becomes the cutting edge. He went bananas. Incredibly sure of himself, much to our amazement. He went on to explain that a hamon is a result of "case hardening". Even my buddy, who is about as interested in my knife making hobby as I am (and that's a lot) was astounded at this guy's ignorance of his own ignorance. It's like the less knowledgeable of subject matter, the more defensive some people become. On a side note, the same guy informed me that the 1903 Springfield has no safety. When I explained, that it does, and I'm pretty sure of this since i own one, he told me he read it in "American Rifleman" and that (sarcastically) "Oh, They must not know what they are talking about". I politely informed him that I didn't know about "American Rifleman", but he was completely wrong regardless.
 
I often brag on to friends about this forum. A lot of people ask me if I've seen "Forged in Fire" since that's how most of the public sees knife making. Since I don't have cable, I tell them I've only seen a few episodes, but that the forum I'm on has several contestants who have graciously helped me with questions and critiqued my work (namely Salem). It's a great community in that regard. Even the many makers who have forgotten more about knife making then I will likely ever learn will help me out. Here's an amusing story explaining what I thing the OP is getting out. This didn't happen in this forum, but a related issue. I know a guy through my son's scout troop. He was discussing "Samurai" swords with me and another guy who knows i make knife shaped objects. The "sword expert" is going on about how the finest swords have a soft core with a hard outer wrap of steel. I think he was talking about san mai. Anyway, I explain to him that it's the opposite, since when you create the bevel, the inner layer of harder steel is exposed and thus becomes the cutting edge. He went bananas. Incredibly sure of himself, much to our amazement. He went on to explain that a hamon is a result of "case hardening". Even my buddy, who is about as interested in my knife making hobby as I am (and that's a lot) was astounded at this guy's ignorance of his own ignorance. It's like the less knowledgeable of subject matter, the more defensive some people become. On a side note, the same guy informed me that the 1903 Springfield has no safety. When I explained, that it does, and I'm pretty sure of this since i own one, he told me he read it in "American Rifleman" and that (sarcastically) "Oh, They must not know what they are talking about". I politely informed him that I didn't know about "American Rifleman", but he was completely wrong regardless.

I have had stories very similar to this one on other subjects. Regardless of their knowledge or experience I always try to steer clear of the arrogant and egomaniac ones whether they are right or not. I don't like to indulge in conversations where the other person just likes to hear themselves speak as they think they are the walking talking encyclopedia on a subject. I don't want to help feed their ego. I've even seen some folks here that are QUITE knowledgeable but WOW what an EGO... Ok, ok calling it an "Proportional, Integral, Derivative Control" makes you sound really smart... It's a P.I.D. controller.... I've even read one where CPM154CM was described with 19 words. It sounded soooo "magical".... Yes, you're smart. yes you know your stuff, but buh bye...
 
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled persons suffer illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their own ineptitude and evaluate their own ability accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

This explains a lot of it, but some is simply ego.
 
But that would require actual knowledge!!! :D I was just saying he good old BFC and particularly this subforum has enough GOOD stuff that it is not as big an issue as you see elsewhere. I don't spend time on Facebook or Twitter, but I have seen some wild claims on websites, ETsy, and a few in General Knife Discussion that would sorely test the patience and collegiality of this otherwise kindly group of folks. ;)
Joe, I think you're missing the point of my post. This isn't about dissuading newcomers from participating. It's about asking anyone - ANYONE - to put their money where their mouth is. I don't have any interest in shutting anyone down. I just want them to show me that they know what they're talking about.
 
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Unfortunately, it was you who was wrong. The best japanese swords have the hard steel on the "outside" and the vary best are made up of as many as 7 different pieces of steel, the softest being the core above the hard, high carbon edge. In simpler old swords, the hard high carbon steel formed kind of a hot dog bun around the soft core hot dog. In the more complicated blades, you had as many as three types of steel with the edge being high carbon, the sides and top being high or medium carbon, the spine being medium carbon and the core being low carbon. But you were correct about the 1903 Springfield. It was a licensed copy of the Mauser 98 design with a couple of mods and had the standard 3 potion safety.
I often brag on to friends about this forum. A lot of people ask me if I've seen "Forged in Fire" since that's how most of the public sees knife making. Since I don't have cable, I tell them I've only seen a few episodes, but that the forum I'm on has several contestants who have graciously helped me with questions and critiqued my work (namely Salem). It's a great community in that regard. Even the many makers who have forgotten more about knife making then I will likely ever learn will help me out. Here's an amusing story explaining what I thing the OP is getting out. This didn't happen in this forum, but a related issue. I know a guy through my son's scout troop. He was discussing "Samurai" swords with me and another guy who knows i make knife shaped objects. The "sword expert" is going on about how the finest swords have a soft core with a hard outer wrap of steel. I think he was talking about san mai. Anyway, I explain to him that it's the opposite, since when you create the bevel, the inner layer of harder steel is exposed and thus becomes the cutting edge. He went bananas. Incredibly sure of himself, much to our amazement. He went on to explain that a hamon is a result of "case hardening". Even my buddy, who is about as interested in my knife making hobby as I am (and that's a lot) was astounded at this guy's ignorance of his own ignorance. It's like the less knowledgeable of subject matter, the more defensive some people become. On a side note, the same guy informed me that the 1903 Springfield has no safety. When I explained, that it does, and I'm pretty sure of this since i own one, he told me he read it in "American Rifleman" and that (sarcastically) "Oh, They must not know what they are talking about". I politely informed him that I didn't know about "American Rifleman", but he was completely wrong regardless.
 
All right, before this thread denigrates into whatever it's going to devolve into, here's a quick recap:


ShopTalk is all about making knives, and there's a lot of knifemakers on here sharing their methods. My goal in starting this thread wasn't about trying to call bullshit on what someone says, unless what they say can't be demonstrated by the bullshitter. Really, it's that easy! Doesn't matter how old you are, what kind of shoes you have on, whether or not you chose to wear pants today. Doesn't matter. What DOES matter is whether or not what you're saying is something you know from doing it. I have far more respect for someone that wants to share and is willing to show what they're doing than someone that does nothing but post and post and post and post and post and yet never manages to get around to proving that they know what the heck they're posting about all the time. Not everyone does museum grade work. I sure as hell don't!!! BUT, if there is something I do, and someone asks me, I'll do my best to show how I do it, or what I use, or what it takes, so you can see who you're getting information from. From there, you can decide whether or not I'm worth listening to.

I'm not talking about a full-bore Work In Progress video, complete with a production team, hand models, soundtrack and makeup trailer here, guys, but if you tell me you have a nifty, innovative way of applying the final finish to your blade involving a turkey baster, fifteen pounds of C4 and a Cub Cadet lawn tractor with a rodeo clown working the PTO, is it really unreasonable for me to ask for a photo of the finished knife? Personally, I think if I ask politely, and you don't respond to my request for an example, you've spoken loud and clear, and perhaps after this thread, many will understand what I'm after.
 
Good thread. Always enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for being a part of shop talk.

Hoss
 
I dont post much at all anymore here, but I do still read. I think I'll have been making blades for 10 years now come this october... and I think I'm finally a well seasoned beginner... MAYBE even intermediate. I can give advice where I have experience myself, but I see people posting one week "hi here's my first knife" and 2 weeks later talking like they're an expert. Maybe it's just that I hang out with academics too often, but even in the fields that I AM an expert at, I try not to make hard statements unless it's known scientific fact, or I at lest preface things by "it's my opinion based on x y and z"

The most frequent thing that I see is people with a 'little' bit of knowledge who dont know how much they dont know and think they're an expert. Unfortunately it's the waves of slightly informed people that drove away many of the true experts who used to frequent this place 8 years ago or so.

This was my long winded way of saying... Right on Matt, I agree with you completely =)
 
Men are strange animals. Many are purely ego-driven. When I used to give shooting classes, the women listened intently and were consistently able to learn to shoot very well-quickly.
Since men have an "inate" knowledge of guns (or so they think) teaching them to shoot was a real PITA!
To a lesser degree, it happens here.
 
Unfortunately, it was you who was wrong. The best japanese swords have the hard steel on the "outside" and the vary best are made up of as many as 7 different pieces of steel, the softest being the core above the hard, high carbon edge. In simpler old swords, the hard high carbon steel formed kind of a hot dog bun around the soft core hot dog. In the more complicated blades, you had as many as three types of steel with the edge being high carbon, the sides and top being high or medium carbon, the spine being medium carbon and the core being low carbon. But you were correct about the 1903 Springfield. It was a licensed copy of the Mauser 98 design with a couple of mods and had the standard 3 potion safety.
He drew a diagram for me with the soft core. It formed the cutting edge of the blade. Seriously, I'm not an expert by any means, but he drew out a sketch with the soft core exposed by grinding . He explained that the exposed soft core edge would be case hardened into some sort of super steel. The discussion never came even close to what you are describing.
 
And I wouldn't call what happened with the 1903 a licensed copy per se. Mauser sued for patent infringement, and won. Payment for licensing was worked out, but stopped due to WW1. Guess it depends on how you look at it.
 
Very well put Matt (and others)-you know who you are. Seems if you don't turn this thing
on every day its a whole new world of bullshit.
Ken.
 
Oh, okay. Never mind. ;)
He drew a diagram for me with the soft core. It formed the cutting edge of the blade. Seriously, I'm not an expert by any means, but he drew out a sketch with the soft core exposed by grinding . He explained that the exposed soft core edge would be case hardened into some sort of super steel. The discussion never came even close to what you are describing.
 
a nifty, innovative way of applying the final finish to your blade involving a turkey baster, fifteen pounds of C4 and a Cub Cadet lawn tractor with a rodeo clown working the PTO, is it really unreasonable for me to ask for a photo of the finished knife...........
Stop giving away my trade secrets!!!!:mad: But seriously, that was pretty funny. :D
 
Matt.... yes.

That's it... didn't want to congest the thread.


ps. My sig line seems appropriate in this thread.
 
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... but if you tell me you have a nifty, innovative way of applying the final finish to your blade involving a turkey baster, fifteen pounds of C4 and a Cub Cadet lawn tractor with a rodeo clown working the PTO, is it really unreasonable for me to ask for a photo of the finished knife?

The Cub Cadet must be aligned East to West to make any significant difference in the finish. :D
 
As a college professor over the last 30 years I can state unequivocally that one of the most challenging aspects of teaching is in ridding the learner of any preconceived concepts. Some folks want to hold on to their notions about things as if they had the experience of 10 lifetimes of research to back their claims. I'm sorry to report that in my experience, for some its simply in their nature to believe what the want to believe regardless of merit. I'm not a psychologist, I don't know what drives people to behave in this way. I've always likened it to remodeling a house. Sometimes in the remodeling process the biggest challenge is undoing the shoddy work of the previous remodeler that only thought he knew what he was doing. Once thats out of the way, it becomes relatively easy to move on, and the house accepts your new constructions quite readily.

This forum, like any internet social site, is a microcosm of society, and as such is subject to the whims and fancy of a myriad of individuals. Just as in real life, there are going to be trade professionals that you come to know and trust, and there's going to be bullshitters that you learn to avoid, or at the very least learn to take with a grain of salt. And there are the teeming masses that fall in the middle somewhere. Do I personally need proof of what anyone says here? No, not really. As a novice, I'll pick and choose the kind advice and answers that I come across and try to verify that information through alternate sources. Because at the end of the day, the only proof I'm going to require is the proof that the work that I've just completed meets the standards that I have set for myself.
 
As long as we're all making sure we quench pointing North.
 
I really don't know why I'm posting this, as the ones that most desperately need to read it are going to handily dismiss it - it's been proven again and again that this is how it works. I'm hoping, however, that maybe - just maybe - a new maker will read this, and perhaps it will get them to critically consider the advice or instruction they've observed here, and understand how the internet has a magical way of attributing mastery to folks that probably don't deserve it.


Over the course of the years I've participated in the ShopTalk area, I've seen a lot of faces come and go. Some of them leaving were a good thing, or perhaps for the best, while others are a sore loss to this community. Many left in frustration, and part of the reason for their exit is an obvious one: credibility. There's a disturbing trend here that seems to allow for voices to crowd the stage that have EVERYTHING to say, on damn near any topic, without ever providing a single shred of proof, even when asked for it - nicely, or not.

Here are some of my thoughts. I'm sure many will dismiss them, as it appears they ALWAYS dismiss outside information, but perhaps this will allow newer folks to ponder a bit on WHO they're accepting their information from.

If you're suggesting that you have an improved process for something, provide an example. An actual, real-life, concrete EXAMPLE of what you're talking about. I genuinely don't give a shit if you've done something for x number of years - that in itself isn't proof of anything. I've known my fair share of assholes that have done it WRONG for forty years, and the only thing this demonstrates is their inability to accept better information, or perhaps shows an ignorance beyond my comprehension. It CERTAINLY does not imply mastery! If your work is displayed for all to see, the public can decide for themselves whether or not your position is worth any merit. The same holds true for everyone, btw - I'm not just pointing a finger at the 'old regime'. Just the opposite, in fact - some of the guys I'm seeing with the biggest opinions are new makers!!!

Explain yourself in detail. If you're making a claim, the onus falls upon you to explain your claim. To quote the Marquis de Laplace, "The weight of evidence for an extraordinary claim must be proportioned to its strangeness." If you can't manage to state HOW you're doing something, how the heck can you expect anyone to take you seriously? WHY should anyone take you seriously?

This isn't about any single, specific incident. In fact, I see countless examples of what I'm talking about right now in ShopTalk on the first page of threads. It's not about heat treat, or grinding, or who makes the best machine, or the best finishing technique, or who drove the best goddamn car this morning - it's about ALL of these things.

Too often I see guys answering questions on here with bold positions. Some of them are guys that I can't find a single example of work from. How the hell is that even possible?!?!?!?! There are some GIANTS that provide information with examples of their work darn near everywhere, and I've witnessed THEIR statements trampled by yahoos that haven't once ever proven that they can do anything other than 'talk the talk'. There are guys that have thousands and thousands of posts - in a few cases, more posts than Spark. You know, Spark - the guy that owns Bladeforums. Many of these guys have yet to post a single good example of their work - something that would allow for a degree of scrutiny, showing the details they claim to maintain. How can this be?

I understand that there are some guys here that intentionally post under pseudonyms, as it liberates them to say things that perhaps might cause trouble for their real existence. I get it. There's few enough of them, or perhaps even guys that aren't knifemakers but that have great input, for their participation to be accepted and weighed as it will. The rest of us should offer the ShopTalk community a bit of respect and PROVE that you do what you say, or perhaps consider refraining from offering an opinion until you CAN make your point with an example.


My goal isn't to dissuade people from sharing - just the opposite! I WANT you to share your work!!!! I WANT you to show who you are!!!! The critical thing here, though, is to explain how and why you do something, and show what the results are. ALL OF US benefit when you do. The best input from folks usually starts with "this may or may not be the right way, but this is how I do it" - then they SHOW how they do it. I'm not asked to take anyone's word for it. I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word for anything, either.


I DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. In fact, I'm about twelve or thirteen years into this ride, and the longer I continue the less I realize I understand. What I do understand, though, is just how much bullshit is allowed to propagate from people that regurgitate what they've heard, as if it's what they've achieved. Maybe they have! I couldn't say - they've never provided proof. Even when asked for it. Suspicious, no?

It's up to the individual to decide what he reads here is right or not, or whether the information they've found is credible, but it should be up to the provider of information to exemplify what they're promoting. I wonder why more people don't insist on this...

I always enjoy your threads & posts, especially your light hearted ones which are very entertaining! But this is very well said. Thank you! :thumbup:
 
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