how to win friends and influence knifemaking - maybe

I thought I was wrong once... but I was mistaken.

In all seriousness, I agree with your post 100% Matt. Coming from a slightly different perspective, even almost as a devil's advocate, I might venture to guess that not all bad info is necessarily a result of ego or stubborn mindsets. I consider myself a relatively new maker with so much to learn, but have on occasion found myself spreading some "less than accurate" information do to a misunderstanding of my own experience, or just not knowing exactly what I thought I knew, if that makes sense... In some cases I even had photos or a video as proof, but still didn't have ALL of the answer I was looking for.
I think many of us, young, old, new or experienced, are just eager to help each other in a way that we were in turn helped (or WISH we were helped), and sometimes with that eagerness to share, it's not always guaranteed that you'll have the latest and greatest answer and sometimes myths and misunderstandings get perpetuated as an inevitable result.

That's where it helps to have the Brians, Bruces and Eds come in and add their depths of knowledge to help put things on a better track. Unfortunately, that's also when the ego can show up and things devolve into right fighting and name calling. Now hopefully I've never been guilty of that... but not everyone is so humble as me... :D

Great thread, and it's definitely good for all of us to step back and reflect a little more, and of course to throw some good old fashioned proof into the mix every now and then.
 
It's not about right or wrong, Drew. Seriously!!!! I don't mean to say that I expect everyone to get it right. I can't even manage to get it right - how can I possibly insist on it from someone else?!? :D

All I want is a baseline. If you want to know whether or not my methods end with results that are satisfactory to you, you can look at my work. I'm not telling anyone I've got the answers - but if you ask, I'll tell you how I do things. Sometimes I ask others how they do things. I determine who I'm asking by seeing their work. The whole point of knifemaking is that it's a form of craftsmanship. There's supposed to be a product at the end of the process. If you're offering advice or instruction on how to achieve something, it's not unrealistic to expect that someone asks you to display an example. If you don't, perhaps that's an indicator that something ain't necessarily what it seems.

I'm not just talking about posting images here of BF, although that's an obvious one. The internets are a big, open arena. It's usually pretty easy to find stuff, even really obscure stuff. If there's nothing available from a Google search on someone, what can this possibly mean?
 
That's not even close. Now, if it said Stacy "E." Apelt I'd be concerned. :D Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
 
Hmmm that link doesn't seem to want to open to me. Wonder if they got wise...?

Heck, Stacy - even if I could see it, I wouldn't be able to discern whether it was counterfeit or not. I've seen so little of your work, I don't even know what your maker's mark looks like. You should post more good shots of your work! :)
 
Odd....it opened earlier today. It only took them a dozen years, but I guess they finally caught up with that shyster. :rolleyes:
 
Tom Lewis said:
Has any one noticed that knifemakers on this forum that have shown pictures of their work and have established their credibility like, Salem Straub, Don Hanson, Nick Wheeler, Bruce Bump,( and their are others) etc. use their real names.
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Tom, i'm not sure if you're implying the rest of us with pen names are hiding something behind them or are possibly less serious about our cutlery but that's how i read it... now i'll start by saying i'm not at all in the realm of any of those gents you listed and that's fine. I may never be and i accept that, but i take knives and the study of their use as serious as any other (at least part time maker) so i'm going to at least counter point this post, not to argue but possibly to shed a little light on the possibility of what your real name vs a pseudenom might infer. for myself, when i joined BF i chose not to use my name for reasons of my work, which at the time everything that was linked to us in print or social media was considered an operational security risk and taboo, so as such i limited myself to using a fake name and avatar to keep whoever from whatever and not let myself be searchable. The other side to that coin of linking your name to your membership is as name recognition... the more people recognize your name, the more will associate it to your knives and hence; free marketing/advertising... so yes, why would't those gentlemen who are selling knives under their own name not be more established than some random avatar/name... it's how a lot of them gain credibility right? just the thoughts of one random pseudenom using member... who now uses his own handsome face as an avatar i might add ;P
 
Matthew,
Yes, I don't really try very hard to put my stuff out there in webland - not my thing. I do get a fair bit of exposure from other people and such, and receive a phone or email inquiry at least once a week from someone who found me. Word of mouth and the current amount of web presence is about all I can handle right now, so I don't pursue it any harder. After retirement, when I go full time, maybe I'll hire a 14 year old kid to do all that internet stuff for me.

Photos and articles of some of my knife/jewelry/other items are in local news magazines and newspapers from time to time.
In the past, I used to have several knives in each years "Knives" annual ( I have been too busy to get the photos to them for several years now. I plan to try and send them when they ask me this year).
I don't run a selling website. I have one for "someday" but never put any photos or sales on it ( stacythebladesmith.com). It does occasionally get me an email.
Bladeforums is where I post photos.
The gals at the store put my knives, jewelry, and turned items on the store website and other social media places (Either Ore Jewelers at Strawbridge).
Last Christmas, the week of my private show (at the store), they ran a TV ad for the store add with my things on it.
Back in 2007, they did a TV special about me making the Queen's gift.
I only do one knife show a year now outside my private shows, so that is the only show lists I show up on, and the only awards I get anymore.
I go to Ashokan every year with several things to display. There are always some photos of them in the Ashokan photos links.

The link still opens for me?
Here are two photos of the counterfeit pendant I copied of the auction page:
 

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Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I don't really try very hard to put my stuff out there in webland - not my thing... when I go full time, maybe I'll hire a 14 year old kid to do all that internet stuff for me.
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says the man with twenty three thousand posts :p

Kidding aside, I do understand where you're coming from Stacy. Putting good photos online can be very time consuming; time that for many of us could probably be better spent doing other things.

Here's the thing, though. Some of the topics that often come up here really need pictures. The whole "this thread is useless without pictures" meme applies here perhaps as much as anywhere.

Consider two specific topics that come up here all the time: hamon, and wood finishing.

When it comes to hamon, a maker's results will vary based on:
-Carbon content of the steel
-Manganese content
-Blade thickness
-Type of clay
-Thickness of clay
-Austenizing temp
-Soak time
-Quenching medium
-Pre-etch polish
-Etchant
-Number of etching / polishing cycles
-Post etch polishing medium (1200 grit silicon carbide powder in vinegar? 4000 grit silicon carbide powder in mineral oil? Japanese water stones? 1500 grit paper applied with an 80 durometer hard rubber backing and some simple green? .........)

The permutations are virtually unlimited. So when someone asks about how to get a good hamon on 80CrV2, the only people who should be offering an answer (note my word choice here) are those who have direct experience with bringing out a hamon on 80CrV2. And for their words to truly have any real meaning, they probably need to be augmented with pictures. Do a google image search for "hamon" and you'll see how much the results can vary based on any of the above listed variables.

Same thing with the wood finishing questions that come up regularly. The variables include: type of wood, stabilized or not, sanded grit, shellac, cyanoacrylate, tru-oil, boiled linseed oil, danish oil, tung oil, bung oil or hot-buffed ball-wax. The variations are so endless that without any supporting evidence we have no way of knowing whether an opinion has any credence, whatsoever. There's been enough bad information around here lately that you can forgive a guy for wanting to see some supporting evidence for peoples' claims.

The value of this forum is a direct function of the quality of dialogue and information shared here. Unsubstantiated claims and self-aggrandizing BS have no place here.
 
I won't use ball wax unless it's hot buffed.


Not that everyone didn't already know that.
 
Matthew, Please snap a photo next time you are hot buffing your ball wax...this technique is so little understood. Larry


0zU9X69m.jpg
 
Another good thread Matthew. :thumbup:

As far as the Shoptalk itself, I might be a little pessimist but I think the best years are gone. But not so much because of the reasons you guys already stated as much as a question of saturation.
We all want some of those more experienced makers to come back but when you think about it, why would they? I mean over the many years Shoptalk has been on, pretty much everything pertaining to knifemaking has been covered on here. The info is all here, a ton of excellent WIPs covering everything you can think of.

Of course there are always a few new things to learn and discover but a lot less than at the beginning. I check the titles of the threads in shoptalk daily and might read or save one a week that has new info in it. Everything else I've read about on here. And most of the new stuff would fall in the very-advanced category. That's why a little while back I talked about an advanced forum but no idea how that could be implemented if it even could be.

Design is where I think there is still a lot of room for new ideas, much more so than on the making/technical side of the craft (Shoptalk) and easier to share on a visual platform like Instagram for example.
 
I agree completely with your post Matthew. I also was probably a little guilty of what you speak of when I first started on here. I think most of it is people trying to fit in or trying to seem relevant. I don't consider myself on the level of a lot of the makers on this site, including you Matthew, and that is why I continue to ask questions here because I still have a lot to learn. I do try to post my work mostly in the "what's going on in your shop". I enjoy giving advice on subjects that I can as most of us do. I also understand that when I give advice, being relatively new, that some people will dismiss my advice based solely on that reason alone. And that's fine and maybe I should do a better job of attaching a photo or video to my advice so people can see that I'm talking from experience. The hardest thing I've run across is posting videos. I was trying to explain how I do plungeless grinds in a thread once and decided to do a video. After a couple days of trying to figure out how to post it due to the length I gave up. Maybe I will get it figured out one day! Anyway, we should all "put a little more proof in our puddin" because without pictures.......it never happened.
 
Matt R said:
... After a couple days of trying to figure out how to post it due to the length I gave up. Maybe I will get it figured out one day! Anyway, we should all "put a little more proof in our puddin" because without pictures.......it never happened.
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For videos just save it to your desktop. Have a Youtube account and upload it on your account. Then copy and paste the link using the little video strip icon on the menu bar when you post it here. The video will show in your post.
 
I, for one am going to use this thread as a kick-in-da-pants for becoming more active in shop talk. No more one-liner replies with enigmatic info buried under a veil of sarcasm.

I'm still going to ridicule Matt at every opportunity, though.... he likes it, deep down. Not "deep down" like you're probably thinking... unless you're thinking like me... which means you know exactly what I'm sayin'.:cool:
 
Not knowing any other makers or living close to any as well, I relied on this forum and the ABS forum for much of my learning, the WIP and endless information here is greatly responsible for where I'm at today. Of course I check credentials of any information givers if I don't know about them already, but who I consider the greats need no follow ups, John White, Don Hanson,Lin Rhea,Nick Wheeler,Mike Ruth, I can go on and on. Before I aver asked advice it was after I had done my fair share of research and came to a dead end, before I give advive its only about something I have geat confidence in and only offer it as MY way.

Good thread Matt

Chad
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Matthew,
Yes, I don't really try very hard to put my stuff out there in webland - not my thing.
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^^^ This is kind of a bummer for those, myself included, that would be interested in seeing your knives. I've looked for pics several times in the past and haven't found any that I can recall. Would you consider posting some pics some time, here on bladeforums? I'd like to see your work, it sounds really nice.


Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Bladeforums is where I post photos.
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I searched but didn't find any showing knives up close. A few other pics and maybe one of a table with some knives on it, but from a distance. Are there links somewhere?
 
There are a lot of good posts in this thread and there are a few good posts that are starting to drift the topic a bit, but good nonetheless.


But as I read it, the OP wasn't talking about what happened to shoptalk or where did the big name veteran makers go or where or how does one advertise/get sales.

It's about those who frequently offer advice on all manner of things but are relatively unknown in person and have not much in the way of online photo credentials of their work.

I didn't take the thread at all like Matt was asking anyone to quit posting, rather just the opposite...post those pics up!

I think the topic is a really valid one. In what other area of life would anyone sensible take advice from a stranger(for lack of a better term) with just their own words to go on? Would you hire a contractor without any credentials? How about a lawyer? Or a mechanic? Would you let a stranger invest your money in stocks and mutual funds without looking at his portfolio?

I realize all of the 'credentials' that validate the above professions may vary some. For us, as knifemakers, our credentials that validate us are our portfolio pictures and online pics of finished work. And nice clear pics that show details are a huge bonus.

Nobody in this field, hobbyist, amateur or professional wants to make a bad knife. They all want to make the best knife they can. If I was taking advice from someone in this ever growing and more competitive field, I'd want to know that that person knew what they were talking about.
 
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