HTM takes a hit

[Silent Jay]

@ SilentJohn, my personal problem with Nutnfancy in this particular circumstance is that he's misrepresenting the overall quality of the knife in his review. Yes, it's unfortunate that he received a lemon. As someone whose opinion is taken with rather more weight than it should be a large portion of the population, he has in my opinion a RESPONSIBILITY to present accurate and as unbiased and detailed information as possible. He doesn't do that. In fact, he rambles on for 13 minutes before mentioning the likelihood that it's just a lemon. In his place, I would have contacted the company to replace the lemon. Just like I would if I received ANY defective product. Then I'd review the product I received back. I would mention that I got a lemon, which was defective in these parts, I contacted the company, my experience was XXX, and they did/did not resolve the issues. IF I received another lemon, or they refused to address the issue, I would mention that in the review. Such information gives the audience of the review an idea of what the knife is actually like if it's received in perfect condition, as well as what it will be like if they do happen to receive a lemon.

And his style of review involves rambling. Another, more competent reviewer, who actually planned out the points he was planning on making, could get out the same amount of information in half the time, and without misrepresenting the product or the company.

So let me ask you this, which review would YOU rather listen to? A 5-10 minute review, with a concise and careful exposition of the knife as you can probably expect to receive it, along with an account of the reviewers experience, having received a lemon, and discussing their experience with the company's customer service (positive or negative, as it might be either)? Or would you rather spend 15 minutes listening to Nutnfancy ramble, and find out nothing about what the knife would be like if it weren't a lemon, nothing about the customer service?

Well, I think if he did keep more to the point, his stating that it might just be a lemon would have come out sooner. But to be fair, if it is late into the review, someone who dislikes his style of review, might not have ever even made it to that point. But I think a lot of his fans understand his way of doing things and hold out until the end to hear that info.

And while clearly, any lemon should be sent back, but on the other side of the coin, wouldn't it also make sense to still bring up the problems you had with it to bring attention, even if just to the maker to prevent them? I don't know, I personally would prefer to get feedback on all aspects good, bad, and even things that were just lemons. I think I'd rather have info on what to look out for in QC checks and such.

I'm personally not a fan of his reviews, but even then, any reviewer is going to have opinion go into it, so it's impossible to find anything that is unbiased, unless it just talks about the knife in the specs that you could have just found in the item's description anyway (well, for the most part).

I know I did a review on a $600+ handmade custom recently that had more than a number of issues, and in my mind, it was fine to review it as is, because that's how the maker sent it out. With hand-made, there is no excuse for lemons in my mind (especially at $600+). But again, that's just one instance (although going into research it's actually and extremely common problem with that maker and tends to not be fixed without issues coming up on top of it). But again, that's also a different circumstance.

But I do understand what you're saying about letting them get a chance to get it right on a production knife. But for me, the more hand-work that goes into it that's clearly increasing cost, the less room for error and the less need to sweep your issues under the rug (which I've seen people get flamed out and banned from forums for not sweeping their issues under the rug).

 

[Silent Jay]

He called me out first. The only reason this isn't locked is because he put his childish antics aside, and I don't like moderating like a nazi and prefer instead to let people police themselves.

And just because I'm a mod here doesn't mean I promote his products. I *like* his products. There is a big difference here. I also don't go out of my way to recommend them. The only time I recommend any of DDR or HTM knives is when a user asks for specifics that I feel this line of knives covers. Believe me, Darrel and I don't see eye to eye on a few things. We're just cordial about it. There are actually things I do not like on his, which is why my custom is a full blown custom with all the features I want. Fortunately, Darrel is a maker willing to accommodate my requests.

Ok. Makes sense.

Just form my initial read through, seemed as though it was a viable question that got handled in a slightly over the top way (but that's probably just my outlook on it).

But all seems quite well now.

 

[Dirk]

I didn't watch the review and personally don't care about the issue contained in it. In my opinion, reviewer gets Product to review and does the review on the product as received. If there are issue, reviewer points them out. If they are manufacturing defects, those should be pointed out as well. Reviewer should then say they are going to contact the company and see how the company will resolve those issues. Then reviewer finalizes review with how the issues were resolved. Very basic and fair. They can add whatever else they want in the review, but it should have this basic format.

I have been in the knife world for a while and have seen it from the collectors side and the manufacturing side. I do not work directly for HTM, I am a designer for them and I will state a very good friend of Darrel's. I will also state that I will defend Darrel when I feel he is being unfairly attacked for something. In this case, I don't see an unfair attack. I see lack of information and to some point unrealistic expectations. HTM and Darrel have made thousands of knives over the years. Darrel's and HTM have had some bad ones go out the doors. How does this happen you ask. The knives are being made by humans and humans make mistakes. The issue isn't that an occasional bad knife goes out, it's how Darrel/HTM corrects the problem. To the best of my knowledge, whenever a knife is wrong, Darrel/HTM makes it right. I have even see Darrel replace knives that were altered by the customer. I have seen some of the alterations first hand and the were ridiculously obvious. If you believe bad products don't come out from every knife manufacturer, I am not going to try to change your mind. I am simply going to say, you are wrong.

Now, there are 3 people tied to this thread who have complaints about HTM Gunhammer. Were they purchased at roughly the same time? If so, then they might be part of the same run and a problem may have crept into the process and should be looked at.

 

[dfkdfk]

This is the thinking I see over and over in the knife community and I just dont get it.

When did not getting it right the first time become okay on any knife?

Why do we as the knife purchasing public have to accept this as norm from manufacturers?

Alright I was gonna just lurk but Ryanol you just won't quit man. I'm not sure if you actually like, buy stuff in real life, or just exist to piss people off but dude, it's a $200 production knife! Believe it or not, shit happens. Stuff occasionally slips through QC and you get sent a defective product. It can happen with a $200 knife, it can happen with a $500 knife, it can happen with a $1000 TV, it can happen with a $50,000 car, it can happen with a million dollar house!

We live in an imperfect world where the products we consume occasionally arrive with manufacturing defects because there are many discrete steps in the manufacturing process where they pass through many different hands. And it all has to be optimized so the company can actually stay in business - and if they are lucky maybe turn a profit, which they will often just plow back into the business to improve their knives. God forbid something occasionally gets slightly out of whack in the process, the whole factory should be shut down! Remind us what you do again so we can come scrutinize every step you take - if you draw, you better be ^&*(@ing Picasso!

Reality check: this kind of stuff can and does happen to every manufacturer. The knife shipped with some vertical blade play - totally unacceptable, I agree completely, but obviously this was a defect and not the end of the world.

The real issue is whether this is a manufacturing defect or a design defect, and how HTM handled the problem. That would have actually required some effort instead of the knee jerk reaction to "keep it real!" It puzzles me because the man will literally hike up a mountain to review a knife, but he can't give HTM a fair shake by calling up their customer service department and attempting to sort this out...

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

And while clearly, any lemon should be sent back, but on the other side of the coin, wouldn't it also make sense to still bring up the problems you had with it to bring attention, even if just to the maker to prevent them? I don't know, I personally would prefer to get feedback on all aspects good, bad, and even things that were just lemons. I think I'd rather have info on what to look out for in QC checks and such.

Absolutely. I do think it's worth mentioning the flaws (and an unbiased review SHOULD). But I'm a fan of MORE information, not less, and his reviews, lets face it, are quite UNinformative, despite their length. I also agree with you about the handmade customs. I had a custom that I was rather disappointed in, since I had to do a lot of cleanup work, and the response from the maker was disappointing, to say the least. When I say unbiased as possible, I mean exactly that. No review will be unbiased. But the reviewer still has a responsibility to attempt to be as unbiased as they can, and present a fair and balanced account of the other side or interpretation that might be there. I don't see that happening here, or in pretty much any of Nutnfancy's "reviews."

Also, I realized I got your name wrong, and I apologize for that. Silent JAY.

It's not that it's a good thing or anything to get a lemon. It's that the review is incomplete if you haven't either gotten, or attempted to get, a model as the company intended it to be. And until you make that effort, you shouldn't be writing the review. Or spending 15 minutes to say almost nothing of worth. His comments would have worth in context, but he never provides that context.

 

[Ryanol]

Alright fair enough, years of buying twenty dollar SAKs has given me unrealistic expectations.

 

[Scurvy092]

Oh and he basically admitted he posted this vid just to show people that he doesn't love every knife he reviews.

 

[Dirk]

Alright fair enough, years of buying twenty dollar SAKs has given me unrealistic expectations.[/QUO

I take it you are saying your SAK's had no issues? WOW! I am impressed. I had a couple over the years that either weren't sharp or were missing spring for one of the tools. Your point is taken. You found perfection.

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

Oh and he basically admitted he posted this vid just to show people that he doesn't love every knife he reviews.

To be fair, if he's only reviewing knives he's purchased for himself, chances are he bought them because he likes them. But if he's receiving a variety of knives as review samples, he should still be presenting a balanced opinion, so people can make up their OWN minds on whether they want to buy the knife, and that issue should never really arise. That's one reason I prefer doing photo reviews, honestly. It's much easier to organize, and you can make sure to do the best job possible because you can edit before you put the review out there.

 

[Ryanol]

Haha it was a bad metaphor and uncalled for, I've probably only bought five or six SAKs in the last twenty years. But yeah none of them cut me in the closed position.

But again that's really not my beef, my issue is illustrated over an over in this very thread: that so many seem to give a free pass if the issue is corrected after the fact - how did we get here?

I recently purchased a 94 dollar a/c from target that sounded like a cross between a airplane engine and a bug zapper. Now I realize it was dirt cheap but it was unacceptable at any price so I took it back for a refund.

Honestly anything that I buy that has a manufacturing defect gets taken back and I buy a different product. It happens I agree but for me - thats the end of our business relationship.

My dad always said "if your gonna do something, it's worth doing right the first time!"

 

[crimsonfalcon07]

I don't think anyone's giving a free pass. We're just saying "finish the review, bud."

That's our beef. He didn't do what you did. Take the product back. THEN write the review.

 

[monger4142]

Never understood his popularity.

+1

I'd watch the posted video, but I already know I won't be able to stand watching it.

 

[Dirk]

No free pass. If you buy a defective product you can, keep and suffer, contact manufacturer for warranty, take it back for refund and either walk away from the product or try it again. No worries.

If you are going to do product reviews, be fair. Contact the maker/manufacturer and see what's up. If they take care of the problem, I think they deserve some credit. If they blow you off well, all bets are off. If you aren't going to contact the maker/manufacturer about the defects and just complain, you are doing an incomplete review. I want to know how they stand behind their product or what is their customer service/warranty like. I have seen too many people like this over the years that don't follow through and for me, they are a waste of my time.

 

[dfkdfk]

Haha it was a bad metaphor and uncalled for, I've probably only bought five or six SAKs in the last twenty years. But yeah none of them cut me in the closed position.

But again that's really not my beef, my issue is illustrated over an over in this very thread: that so many seem to give a free pass if the issue is corrected after the fact - how did we get here?

I recently purchased a 94 dollar a/c from target that sounded like a cross between a airplane engine and a bug zapper. Now I realize it was dirt cheap but it was unacceptable at any price so I took it back for a refund.

Honestly anything that I buy that has a manufacturing defect gets taken back and I buy a different product. It happens I agree but for me - thats the end of our business relationship.

My dad always said "if your gonna do something, it's worth doing right the first time!"

It's not about giving the knife a free pass, it's about giving it a fair chance. And no disrespect to your father but I find the quote incredibly ironic because Nutnfancy did NOT do this review right. Maybe he shouldn't have done it at all.

 

[Ryanol]

It's not about giving the knife a free pass, it's about giving it a fair chance. And no disrespect to your father but I find the quote incredibly ironic because Nutnfancy did NOT do this review right. Maybe he shouldn't have done it at all.

I give up, I'm not nearly as forgiving as most I guess.

I see no reason why a knife reviewer needs to send back a knife if it's of poor quality when he receives it before posting a review.

It's the knife he recieved he's reviewing isnt it, not DDRs customer service?

 

[dbla]

I give up, I'm not nearly as forgiving as most I guess.

I see no reason why a knife reviewer needs to send back a knife if it's of poor quality when he receives it before posting a review.

It's the knife he recieved he's reviewing isnt it, not DDRs customer service?

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't think it's a matter of forgiveness. It's a matter of reality. Production ANYTHING can have defects, maybe not even as a result of the end manufacturer, perhaps the steel supplier (or titanium I guess) missed that particular bar stock piece in it's random batch tests before it was shipped out to DDR, then through the rigors of manufacturing it was compromised and also missed by whatever form of QC in DDR's factory... They'll fix it, and it will be great.

I'm a photographer, and there is a legend about the Leica lens testing room, where two little old German ladies sit, and by hand actuate the lens focus and aperture rings of EVERY G#D D!#MN lens that that factory makes. Each one. Pretty great right? Except for the fact that those cameras can still ship with the rangefinders out of alignment, or the lens elements can separate over time, as per a defect in mass production. Wanna know the bad thing about the the "Leica lens testing room"? It's EXPENSIVE the cheapest Leica lens on the market is $1500, and it's not that great (!!). If DDR had someone flipping and testing each and every knife that left the factory, it would make the knives exponentially more expensive. I'll take the CHANCE that my knife has lockup issues (that DDR will happily fix) rather than NOT being able to afford the knife in the first place.

If you are unwilling to accept a degree of error from a production based company, and when errors are encountered move on to another brand, so be it, good riddance, but you need to realize that not everyone gets it right every time. Even Ferrari's need servicing.

 

[Fanglekai]

I give up, I'm not nearly as forgiving as most I guess.

I see no reason why a knife reviewer needs to send back a knife if it's of poor quality when he receives it before posting a review.

It's the knife he recieved he's reviewing isnt it, not DDRs customer service?

Because it's MORE information. It's incredibly simple with some very basic video editing to make a short video of the knife with the problem, then send it back to the company for warranty work, and make another short video of the knife after the warranty work has been performed. Join the two videos and you'd have a worthwhile review. Nutnfancy's review says "I got a lemon". Ok, great. It doesn't tell anyone about 1) customer service 2) repair turnaround time 3) quality of repair work. Nutnfancy does not provide as much information as he could. Knowing whether the warranty is worthwhile or complete garbage is something that helps consumers make informed decisions. Knowing which companies stand behind their products is worthwhile and useful information. Knowing that someone got a bad knife is only helpful if it is part of a larger pattern, i.e. lots of people receiving knives with problems points toward an issue that the company needs to address. Knowing that one guy got a messed up knife doesn't indicate anything other than one guy got a messed up knife. If he sent it in for repair and it came back messed up that would be useful information. If he sent it back to the dealer in exchange for another and it had the same issue that would be useful information.

That's why it's an incomplete review. That is why people are arguing with you.

 

[Ryanol]

I didn't realize DDR had a full on robotic production line- I guess I thought gunhammers were ground and packaged into a box by hand?

 

[dbla]

I didn't realize DDR had a full on robotic production line- I guess I thought gunhammers were ground and packaged into a box by hand?

Never said they did, just saying that errors happen, get over it. Basically.

 

[Dirk]

A review of the knife as received is absolutely essential. He doesn't need to get the knife fixed or replaced to review. He just needs to understand reviews aren't just about the product, but the company that makes them. And there are a lot of people out there who actually do want to know about a companies customer service and whether or not the warranty for a product is supported.

If your mind set is truly "1 strike and your out" then I will respect that. My only question would be, does that apply to everything in your life or just certain things?