I am starting to think custom knives are outdated.

[Scott Dog]

I don't think that custom knives are outdated. I think the designs of custom makers that have filtered to the production level have allowed us knife lovers to obtain a quality of production knives unheard of10-20 years ago at prices that more people can afford. There will always be a market for higher end (custom) products and people willing and eager to purchase the expensive products. Currently my financial situation has severely limited my ability to justify buying custom (or production for that matter). If I won the lottery I would however buy like crazy. One thing I had to learn the expensive way was that left hand folding knives are generally a bad investment.

 

[Architect]

...
While the after market for custom knives can be "iffy" at best. What is the factory market for a used factory knife? Close to Zero I suspect. Why? Because there are tens of thousands of copies and you can buy a new one all day for 50% off of MSRP.

WWG

WWG - while you know the custom market very well, you know nothing about "factory" knife market. You are referring to makers like Gerber and Buck and Case that endlessly grind out thousands of the same pattern. Makers like Spyderco, Benchmade, Lone Wolf and others produce many limited runs that aquire value over time. In fact, the ROI in these knives can easily exceed 100% when held for 2 - 5 years, depending on the particular model. The hard part, of course, is figuring out which one is going to increase in value.

Since you are on your high horse about producing test results, perhaps you can rekindle the precise results that led you to dismiss "factory" knives 25 years ago. And I don't mean - "Trust me, I was a Special Forces guy, and I know".

It bears repeating that connection between small shop makers and large shop makers has benefitted both parties. Several makers that get design royalties from "factory" knives are now free to spend more time on design and less time solely knocking out the same knife pattern over and over. I think it is good for everyone.

No customs are not obsolete, but I think that the original poster is correct in that custom makers are going to continue to be very heavily challenged on a performance "factories" as the years go by.

 

[Les Robertson]

Architect,

Interesting post. The Troll who posts on here does not have to post proof of his claims, but I do. Hmmm?

First, I know more about factory knives than you know...Hell I co-designed one. Most of the factory knives out today are copies or variants of custom knives that were developed two or more years ago. So if you know custom knives, you know factory knives.

How many times have you gone to a for sale forum and seen, Terzuola, Carson, Emerson, Lum, Lightfoot and Fisk...only to see they are factory versions. This is of course exactly what the factories wanted.

Second, I was never in Special Forces, I was an Infantry Officer in the 101st Airborne. Field Testing Examples:

2nd week of Infantry Officer Basic Course we went out over night. I had a Gerber Dagger. Stuck the blade in the tree and pulled the knife out and only had a handle in my hand.

US Army Northern Warfare School Black Rapids Training Site, We were cutting ice for what was to be windows for an Igloo. Fellow Infantry Captain using a Randall Mdl 14 chopped ice and used the blade to pry up the ice block. 1 1/2" of the tip broke off (temp -30 degrees). Laughing I took my Walter Brend 8 1/2" model 2, cut a piece of ice twice as big and jumped on the handle to pry the ice up. The completed the mission and showed no damage. Sold fellow officer a Brend after the course was over.

Ft. Campbell, KY (back 40 as we called it). Soldier holding a piece of commo wire (about the thickness of stereo wire) against a tree and cut it with a Cold Steel Tanto. Result, the tanto blade broke in the middle.

US Army Jungle School, Ft. Sherman Panama. Gerber BMF with neoprene handle material. Disintegrated after numerous time in the salt water and jungle. Turned white and broke apart.

FT. Campbell, Ky (back 40) Buck 110 being used to open ammo crate, tip broke (in this case wrong tool for the job).

FT. Campbell, Ky, Sniper School. Individual was cutting material for his rifles cheek piece with a Schrade folder. Flipped the knife into the ground after cutting and broke the tip off. I saw the same thing happen with a Gerber boot knife except the tip curled like an elf shoe.

I had a Battalion Commander who carried a Brand New Randall Model 1 (never saw it out of the sheath). I was breaking the bands on some pyrotechnics cases and asked him if I could borrow his knife. He declined, so I took my Robert Parrish knife and continued to break the bands. Now the Randall Model 1 may have done the job. But it was obvious he felt the knife was made for show and not "go".

Fortunately in each case a custom knife was there to compete the task at hand.

WWG, climbing off of his high horse now.

Now Architect, it is time for you to chastise K8 for his lack of examples.

I never served in combat, however the unit I was in was "on call" every other month to be first in after the Rangers. I got on a plane more than one time with live ammunition on it. I took my job, my survival and the survival of my soldiers very seriously. As such I purchased the very best gear I could. I was not interested in a knife that had a better chance than not to fail.

Actually, the event that led me to become a custom knife dealer was an incident that took place while I was with the 101st. About 9PM one night 10 guys showed up at my door. They all had long hair and beards (relaxed grooming standards). They bought 22 or the 23 custom knives I had and paid cash. Those purchases allowed me to start my business in earnest.

Are there factory knives that will hold their value or go up, sure. When I first started as a dealer I went to NKCA (National Knife Collector Association) Shows. Where there would be maybe 5 people selling custom knives. I received quite an education on the collectibility of older factory knives, especially Case. However, Im sure you would agree that most factory knives made in the last 20 years have little if any chance in going up in value.

Ok, back to the post.

K8, you are still full of S**T. Architect I expect to see a "High Horse" comment from you with regards to K8's opening statement.

WWG

 

[Bastid]

Show me a factory slip joint that is half the knife of a Tony Bose. Not one out there that even comes close.

I could say the same about a number of custom bowies also. But I guess you're just speaking of tacticals and hunters.

Amen to that and more.

 

[jokrswylde]

I have a question for WWW (or anyone for that matter), just for my own curiosity and to gain some insight. How would you classify William Henry, Chris Reeve, and Busse. I ask about these three because they are factory knives (some would argue semi-custom, I suppose) but they definitely come in at a custom price point.

TNK has some $600 + Sebenzas from time to time, Older Busses can often be seen going for over a grand on the bay, and my new AG Russell catologue has a WH for over $700.

Now, aside from the intangibles that come from owning a custom (pride of ownership, input with the maker, etc.) Do you think there is a gap in performance and function between these three production companies and customs.

Not trying to stir the pot at all, I just find this debate informative and interesting. Thanks for the time.

 

[Architect]

...How many times have you gone to a for sale forum and seen, Terzuola, Carson, Emerson, Lum, Lightfoot and Fisk...only to see they are factory versions. This is of course exactly what the factories wanted.
WWG

You have posted this same example, over and over on these forums. Again, "custom" makers have profited well from their interaction with the "factories". While it does not make custom knives obsolete (original thread subject), it does bring the products closer together.

... Gerber Dagger...

...Randall Mdl 14 ...

...Cold Steel Tanto...

...Gerber BMF ...

... Buck 110 ...

...Schrade folder... ... Gerber boot knife...

WWG, climbing off of his high horse now.

WWG

Except for maybe the Randall (which is still current) - you are 20 years behind the curve. Presumably (except for the Seki Lum, none are listed) K8 is NOT referring to any of these as examples of productions pushing up on customs in terms of performance. I know I am not. It is of no value to pick the cheapest factory knives and compare them against some of the most expensive custom utility knives.

I have chipped the edges of a Phil Boguszewski Mini Cobra (BG-42) when chipping ice. Phil was very surprised about this when I called him. I have bent the edge of a Tom Mayo TNT blade on a similar task. I wasn't cutting, I was chipping and prying, which of course these things aren't designed for.

If you are going to argue the "custom" side of this topic, at least know what you are dealing with - try a Spyderco Lil' Temperance, Spyderco Street Beat, Spyderco Chinook, Benchmade Osborne 940, Chris Reeve Mark VI, etc. I think you will find that any of these perform very, very well against any knife.

WWG, climbing off of his high horse now.

Now Architect, it is time for you to chastise K8 for his lack of examples.

K8, you are still full of S**T. Architect I expect to see a "High Horse" comment from you with regards to K8's opening statement
WWG

I agree that K8 has not done much to advance the original idea in the further postings. I tried to elevate the discussion along the collaboration issue, but no takers except perhaps Scott Dog. Since I use my knives around my property, I try use the right tool for the job, so I rarely have to improvise with my knives. When I am camping, I have ended up doing some prying with my knives, but not too often. Since I carry both factory and custom knives, I can say at least on my end, the difference comes ( and particularly so in folders) on blade grind geometry and pivot build as much as anything else. For real outdoor use, of most importance to me is the simplicity and reliablity of the locking mechanism. How will it hold up when subjected to poking around in dirt? I had my Sawby Combat Utility knife on me while I was planting a large tree. When cutting off the plastic tub and root ball fabric (which it did very well, and those plastic tubs are very thick on a large tree), dirt got lodged into the seating area of the tang. I literally could not close the knife and get the lock to set. I called Scott in the afternoon. Turns out I needed a needed to get the fine dirt out of the grooves on either side of the seat. Even a custom can fail under the right conditions.

 

[Will Power]

Outdated? No never,in the way that anything hand made to order will always have an appeal. But, in essence, you are correct: Bark River knives are not cheap but they are flawless quality knives at a not unreasonable or painful price.Top in all respects, so too with Spyderco in folders or Fällkniven(although they come in rather too dear)and Mcusta is another house of excellence within reach. Fact is, despite the regrettable disappearance of some cutlers, general standards are possibly higher than ever and quality very good with the exception of some traditional folders/slipjoints where certain Chinese imports can give American cutlers a fright and at a fraction of the cost,sorry to say.

 

[jdm61]

One of my points is that you don't always get "5 factory knives for the price of one custom" I will not raise the "pure" factory vs. mid-tech argument, but suffice to say that many of the factory fixed blade knives, which is what I am familiar with because i only make and, for the most part, only buy fixed blades, have exceeded that magic $100 price point long ago. I recntly bought a Craig Camerer fighter from a purveyor for somewhere in the neighborhood of $325. What does a comparable (notice that I said COMPARABLE) knife from one of the high zoot factory or mid-tech operations cost? The mid-tech end of the market is particularly interesting. Some have aquired the cachet (and pricing) of customs in the user market (Strider and Busse to name a couple) Yet at least one of those brands, Strider, is laser or water jet blanked, machine ground, outside heat treated, etc. And yet for a comparable knife with a G-10 handle, Striders cost more than the purveyor price for my Camerer. Customs...or "handmade, sole authorship" if you will, knives are NOT out of the price range of most who buy high end factory offerings. The paradigm has changed somewhat because the not only the upmarket move by many of the factories where many of them have positioned themselves as "quasi-custom" makers, but the explosion of the custom knive biz. If a Buck 110 does the trick for you, then you probably don't need a custom. But if a San Mai Trailmaster, Al Mar Shiva, SOG Bowie, Reeves Sebenza, William Henry or Strider folder is more to your liking, then there is a pretty fair chance that you can find a comparable custom for around the same price.

 

[jdm61]

"Considering the premise of this thread....I guess we should all be using Bic pens and wearing Timex watches."

Okay, what custom made pens and watches do you currently own? I bet none. You probably are talking about Rolex and Mont Blanc type of stuff. That just goes to prove my point as they are production.

Don't get high quality confused with custom. Here is what I mean, a nice Rolex is a production watch right? I bet a good Rolex is better than most custom made watches you can find. I'm sure that there is a custom watch maker out there that can make a more accuract and more reliable watch than a top of the line Rolex but it will be the exception rather than the rule.

I'm sorry guys but humans are flawed. They can only do so much with there hands. A machine can do more precise work and keep things to closer tolerances than most humans. I am talking about in general and within some sort of price frame. It is just stupid to compare a $100 production knife to $4000 custom. But I will stand behind my statement that if I can pick a $300-400 production knife and you can pick a $300-400 custom knife. My production will most likely out preform the custom.

I can top that. If your $300-400 production knife is made from super stainless and my $300-400 custom is made from carbon steel like W2 or L6, then all I have to do is challenge you to cut until your knife is dull and then resharpen using "field expedient" methods, to wit, no diamond, ceramic, etc. Your knife may or may not cut longer than mine, but I will be ready to cut again very quickly. Field test over....I win As for machines being more precise, they are....IF the manufacturer is going for absolute precision and performance and not a price point based compromise.

 

[fast bob]

i am an old martial artist and have always worked with knives, in forms and unfortunately in real life s.d. situations. the only folder ever fit my hand ,swelled in the palm and was fast was my rekat sifu production.
But for a big fixed blade. a fighter. something that can change direction in a heartbeat. ive handled reeve, Busse and they are real fine knives, but a custom Bowie with my input on the balance point. hand forged, no comparisom. Matt Lamey makes functional beautys at a good price. bagwell ,Shiva Ki. you feel you are holding just a handle. granted this is specialized that is what a custom is a specialized customized knfe made for you.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Joker,

The three you mention are all considered factory/production knives. They are small factories but none the less factories. The fact they can get the money they do for them is testament to their sales and marketing skills.

Architect,

As usual you miss the point. Yes, the makers have benefited from their relationships with the factories. Most of these factories would be out of business if it wasn't for the custom makers. Do you really think Kershaw would be in business if it wasn't for Ken Onion? You have correctly made the argument that the MAIN REASON that factory knives have improved so much over the last 20 years is due directly to their involvement with Custom Knife Makers. Doesn't mean the knives are better than custom knives.

You asked for examples and I provided them. Note, no one else in this thread has provided examples...NO ONE. This includes you and K8. As you made the statement that I have posted the makers names being used to sell factory knives. Neither you nor no other factory user has ever given an example as to a factory knife being better than a custom knife....never.

You say I am 20 years behind the power curve. I have stated in this thread that I don't concern myself with factory knives because they are basically doing what the custom guys did two years ago. Im not behind the factory curve....I am always in front of it.

As it is obvious to all reading this neither K8 or Architect are not going to provide worthwhile so Im going to agree with Kevin to let the thread die.

WWG

 

[jokrswylde]

Hi Joker,

The three you mention are all considered factory/production knives. They are small factories but none the less factories. The fact they can get the money they do for them is testament to their sales and marketing skills.



WWG

Thanks for the reply! Now, I think we all can agree that the three makers/companies I mentioned are priced pretty much the same as customs, right? Now the question becomes...is there a gap in quality/function between these factory knives and a custom?

For example, you can go to many knife sales websites and buy custom knives from various makers. These awesome makers run the gamut from Lambert, Lightfoot, Carson, Terzoula, Mayo, etc. Undoubtedly, If I buy one, I am buying a custom knife, right? However, I have not had any input in design, materials, blade steel, etc.

Should I expect a custom folder to outperform or have better F/F than a WH or Sebenza? The same applies to the aforementioned Brend fixed blade. Will it outperform a Busse? What about a BRKT in A2 tool steel?

Great discussion.

 

[jdm61]

i find it interesting that, with a couple of exceptions, the customs mentioned in this thread tend to be very close in design, construction and materials to the factory knives that folks are comparing them too. Brend, Bussem Reeeves, etc, etc. I haven't heard many folks mention customs that are not so similar to factory knives and by that I mean forged blades. Any comments?

 

[jokrswylde]

i find it interesting that, with a couple of exceptions, the customs mentioned in this thread tend to be very close in design, construction and materials to the factory knives that folks are comparing them too. Brend, Bussem Reeeves, etc, etc. I haven't heard many folks mention customs that are not so similar to factory knives and by that I mean forged blades. Any comments?

I will readily admit I don't own any forged blades. Is there a noticeable performance difference (aside from ease of sharpening) between a forged blade and a s30v, A2, D2, or infi blade?.

 

[Jose Reyes]

I own a Kirk Rexroat folder and a Schempp Persian Spyderco. As far as performance in cutting they are pretty similar. Neither was really meant for "tough" applications so using as a prybar would be out of the question. There's a substantial difference in fit and finish/materials though, and I think the specific attention to detail makes up for the price difference. Although I've handled but never bought a camp knife style production knife, the diffence in weight and handling makes the customs feel at least a notch above, even if the productions are similar in performance, which I've never tested so I don't know.

Production knives perform pretty well nowadays but the difference between a custom and upper end production knife is more than just the performance factors, especially if it's an artistic piece or ordered to spec. K's argument is somewhat valid even if he :foot: a bit and some have put the screws to him. I believe there will always be a place for customs and the extra cost is justified. I don't think it would be possible to make a production piece that gives that extra % of performance and still be economically viable. For a beater to destruction, when you're not out in the wilds and your saftey is not on the line, productions are probably preferable.

 

[Architect]

Hi Joker,

The three you mention are all considered factory/production knives. They are small factories but none the less factories. The fact they can get the money they do for them is testament to their sales and marketing skills...

...You asked for examples and I provided them. Note, no one else in this thread has provided examples...NO ONE. This includes you and K8. As you made the statement that I have posted the makers names being used to sell factory knives. Neither you nor no other factory user has ever given an example as to a factory knife being better than a custom knife....never.

WWG

The factories get the money because their products perform. All you have demonstrated with your "tests" (er...anecdotes) is that you can destroy a cheap knife.

If you want to review some better anecdotes, you should look at Fred Perrin's website. He has many reviews of factory models where he has performed similar procedures to those you have discussed, although his tests are about 15 years closer to current than yours.

http://www.geocities.com/hollywood/set/2292/reviews.htm

Amazingly, he has very different results than you. Those dreaded factory knives perform very well, check it out.

...Do you really think Kershaw would be in business if it wasn't for Ken Onion? You have correctly made the argument that the MAIN REASON that factory knives have improved so much over the last 20 years is due directly to their involvement with Custom Knife Makers. Doesn't mean the knives are better than custom knives...

WWG

I never stated that factory knives were better than custom knives, that is your own misreading. Kershaw would still be in business because most people in the US won't spend over $30 on a knife. Until the custom makers can get their price to that level, the factories will survive, handsomely. Their products would undoubtly be different products.

The original thread question was - Are custom knives obsolete? While this rhetorical question is rather poorly presented and then inflamed by K, I think that the difference between the "base" custom knife models and the "high-end" factory knife models is often very thin.

 

[Starkman1]

The original thread question was - Are custom knives obsolete? While this rhetorical question is rather poorly presented and then inflamed by K, I think that the difference between the "base" custom knife models and the "high-end" factory knife models is often very thin.

I believe the original thread was "are they outdated." Well, what makes any item outdated.....their popularity, or trends? I don’t believe any custom article will ever be out dated. Perhaps the custom knife industry needs something to initiate a resurgence to increase their popularity. Like most things, they become hot for a while, then the excitement shifts to something else until some movie, celebrity or world event re-popularizes it. For some reason, it seems like production tactical folders are really hot now. Has anyone noticed any trends in the custom knife industry in regards to any particular movies, celebrities or world events that may have provided a boost over the years for either production or custom knives? Just my two cents…..Bob

 

[Don Hanson III]

Perhaps the custom knife industry needs something to initiate a resurgence to increase their popularity.

The custom knife industry has been growing steadily since the late 1960s and is not slowing down at all. The internet and the knife forums are now fanning this already hot fire. Hell, I been at this a long time and I can hardly keep up now

 

[Kohai999]

Has anyone noticed any trends in the custom knife industry in regards to any particular movies, celebrities or world events that may have provided a boost over the years for either production or custom knives? Just my two cents…..Bob

Rambo, Predator, The Hunted.....

1. Rambo=Jimmy Lile knives, the whole sawback hollow handle thing, did great for Chris Reeve Knives, United Cutlery, Buck, and a whole slew of imported companies.

2. Predator=Jack Crain knives:grumpy: , and companies who go on that big outlandish bowie thing.

3. The Hunted=the Tracker knife, Tom Brown, Roger Linger, Red Scorpion 6...

Just a few examples. These movies turned the makers into "stars" in their own right, and increased the visual appeal of certain knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Starkman1]

The custom knife industry has been growing steadily since the late 1960s and is not slowing down at all. The internet and the knife forums are now fanning this already hot fire. Hell, I been at this a long time and I can hardly keep up now

Don, exactly my point. Look what this forum and the Internet has done to business.

STeven, I agree. It seems Hollywood definitley has an impact.

Makes you wonder what's next?

Bob