I am starting to think cutting is more in the geometry than in the apex...

You wanted to come back to the playground so lets not start it off by insulting everyone's intelligence.

I came back; its not a matter of asking permission. That said. Why do you find a simple discussion of terms so threatening? This is how discussions go. Its give and take. Its not meant to be a thing of agreement. What would we learn if everyone agrees? Nothing, nothing at all. You surely agree that making knives takes a different skill set than say sharpening knives or knife collecting. There is no implication of superior knowledge on anyone's part, just different skills.

Please explain to me what caused you to feel insulted? I will apologize in advance.

Regards, Fred
 
Theres a big change in perspective needed, in someone who makes knives and than a knife enthusiast or people who enjoy the process of sharpening blades. A maker has need of metallurgy to the point where if he doesn't understand and practice it; his knives will be less than stellar. If I don't measure steel in terms of time at temperature; alloying and its effects, steel structure relative to knife geometry; then I'm not really a knife maker.
All of these things would indeed be good for a maker to know. And master. I see a whole lot of makers on other forums that do indeed understand such things and use them to wring the most out of steel. Are you arguing that ignorance is a good thing? Sure seems like it to me.

By the way, you are arguing with a metallurgist who knows his trade. You might want to listen and learn...
 
All of these things would indeed be good for a maker to know. And master. I see a whole lot of makers on other forums that do indeed understand such things and use them to wring the most out of steel. Are you arguing that ignorance is a good thing? Sure seems like it to me.

By the way, you are arguing with a metallurgist who knows his trade. You might want to listen and learn...

I don't understand your comment; truly I don't. Its not an argument. What is ignorant about discussing the term edge stability? I really don't get it. Are you saying that the term is in common use by knife makers? Or are you saying its not being used by knife makers?

What I don't understand is why people fly off the handle so easily. And get mad for no reason. And attack people for their views. Really its frightening.

I have been making knives for 16 years and I have never heard the term edge stability used. I understand stability being used in reference to steel structure. But in all the hammerins and gatherings of blade smiths along with the 10 or so I've held at my shop I've never in my life talked in terms of edge stability. We always talk in terms of alloys and what their effect is on a steel. We discuss toughness and hardness and plasticity and deformation. When I discuss heat treatment with other smiths its not done in term of edge stability. I love knowledge and crave it; why would you say this?

I think you misread something in my post to say what you've said here. My entire approach to knife making is based in metallurgical principals; why do you say I am fostering ignorance. I don't understand and I don't think you read what I posted.

I think people are wound up way to tight and are lashing out at people. I can find no other since in this.

I am truly sorry if in some manner I have caused you offence or you found my post insulting, Fred
 
Ok, rather than rambling against each other, which, btw, seems to have scared off some knife makers, sharpeners (that actually contributed a lot with videos for instance) in the past I believe, why don't we go back to the OP.

Thinner is better, as long as the steel supports that thinness (is that actually a word?) and that is not only true for the cutting bevel but also for the whole rest of the knife (shoulder, primary grind etc). Then there is geometry which OwE pointed out with hollow ground and apples for instance. Do we all agree to that?

The fun, for me anyway, is to actually sharpen/reprofile a blade thinner and thinner until the blade fails for a given task. Unfortunately I don't have an endless supply of knives. That's where a knife maker comes in. A profession that actually makes and tests exactly what we are talking about here. Bottom line - buy a knife from a respected knife maker. You will have input into the design and the geometry will be spot on!
 
I don't think Fred is arguing for or against anything. I certainly don't think he's insulting anyone's intelligence, and honestly don't see where that even came from. Fred asked a question, I answered as best I could. It's not a common term, most people haven't even heard it. It does have a standard definition, as do all the terms Fred mentioned. They all get used imprecisely, but that doesn't mean there isn't a standard definition. One must read the context of the post to be sure, and if there is doubt, one can always ask. If one person wants to talk about edge holding, and another uses cutting ability to mean the same thing, there will be some confusion if the first says a blade of 1018 can have the same cutting ability of S90V.
 
The art of discussion apparently does not translate well into social media...at least in my opinion.

Opinions are all to often stated as fact though there is little expertise, ability, knowledge, etc. to back up said opinion/fact.

The results are often..."oh yeah, your mother wears combat boots" and other equally delightful remarks/replies.

I guess none of us really likes being called out and maybe have our ideas, opinions, etc. disagreed with...hell well respected professors in many high falutin' areas have nearly come to blows over a "peer" shooting down something they've said, paper written, etc. Why not here too.

We also use terminology that works for us, often at odds to what is used in the field by the professionals, to describe something. Do not denigrate the term or user as they are just not knowledgeable of said terminology in common use. Plus terminology also changes with the times and as a description needs a term rather than a paragraph.

"Edge Stability" seems a very "to the point" and easily understandable term as it pertains to how said angle, steel type, etc. holds up to varied tasks, etc. It would seem, to me, to be a good way for people to have some understanding on how the steel, bevel/s, etc. respond to different uses on materials. How they hold up, etc.

The vast majority of us are "hobbyists" and enjoy working with our knives as well as becoming adept to how the bevels, etc. respond in varied situations as well as how our sharpening methods react and respond as our abilities, skills, knowledge and understanding changes...having a group to bounce ideas off of and observe how others describe their workings reduce time and effort and expand our base lines to a greater or lesser degree.

It is unfortunate that too many times the discussion/conversation can quickly devolve into "I'm right, you're wrong and you suck and smell of elderberry wine"...but that has occurred since we learned to communicate...roll with the punches and hope a moderator is standing by...oh yeah, develop a thick skin.
 
Thinner is better, correct geometry for a given task is something purchasers of knives should keep in mind when making a selection.

My purpose on this forum or any forum is to contribute, encourage debate, exchange ideas and many times make friends. I am completely baffled when some one makes a personal attack on someone when a discussion is taking place. I see this taking place everywhere on line; it is disturbing to me. What does it say about us as humans when someone with a different opinion, states that opinion and then is attacked for stating that opinion. If we start applauding each others every comment and creation just to be accepted and get along, what purpose do we serve?

I hope each of you has a wonderful Sunday, Fred

Thanks for your post Me2; I was enjoying our discussion and I appreciate your insights. :)
 
I don't understand your comment; truly I don't. Its not an argument. What is ignorant about discussing the term edge stability? I really don't get it. Are you saying that the term is in common use by knife makers? Or are you saying its not being used by knife makers?

What I don't understand is why people fly off the handle so easily. And get mad for no reason. And attack people for their views. Really its frightening.

I have been making knives for 16 years and I have never heard the term edge stability used. I understand stability being used in reference to steel structure. But in all the hammerins and gatherings of blade smiths along with the 10 or so I've held at my shop I've never in my life talked in terms of edge stability. We always talk in terms of alloys and what their effect is on a steel. We discuss toughness and hardness and plasticity and deformation. When I discuss heat treatment with other smiths its not done in term of edge stability. I love knowledge and crave it; why would you say this?

I think you misread something in my post to say what you've said here. My entire approach to knife making is based in metallurgical principals; why do you say I am fostering ignorance. I don't understand and I don't think you read what I posted.

I think people are wound up way to tight and are lashing out at people. I can find no other since in this.

I am truly sorry if in some manner I have caused you offence or you found my post insulting, Fred
Hi Fred,

No, I should apologize to you. When I read your post, the last line of your statement, I read it the opposite way, that's why I was wondering why you would say that a knife maker wouldn't be concerned with heat treatment, etc., but in fact, you were arguing for those things. I completely mis read your sentence.

I'm going to give myself a long timeout from BF for that one, not sure how I made that mistake.
 
I often wish that the production companies and custom makers would actually describe the design process that leads them to develop one particular knife over another. But that seldom happens. A knife is a tool with a purpose. That purpose can be specific (machete, box cutter) or broad (EDC). The basic knife design flows from that purpose. Blade and edge geometry also flow from that purpose, as do the characteristics of the steel used.

As this thread suggests, the thinnest geometry and most acute edge profile give us the biggest bang for the performance buck, but there are limitations, such as cost of materials, cost of high-performance production methods and the properties of the steel.The steel is as critical as the design and the geometry of the blade because it is the steel that determines how far we can push geometry and design, which is another way to say that steel determines how much performance we can build into a particular knife design. How well any steel can be pushed by geometry depends on the steel alloy, the grain structure and the purity of the steel (to avoid inclusions that can lead to surprising breakages at the worst possible time). And then there is the heat treat, which is something of a black box. In one of his books, Ed Fowler talks about a lengthy and complex heat treat that he put on a blade of 52100 steel. The result was a blade with extremely fine grain structure that could be flexed at wild angles multiple times without taking a permanent bend.

But how many times to we see a knife maker or production company talk in any meaningful detail about the design elements, geometry and steel characteristics that support the purpose of the knife? I don't remember ever seeing that kind of detail. A couple knife makers here do talk about heat treat, but they are the exception. A couple talk about geometry, but they are the exception. Most of use have way more knives than we can use, and we respond like any consumer base to marketing hype. If you can't hang 1,000 pounds off the handle of a locked EDC, we don't want it. No one talks about the design limitations that come with an EDC with that kind of strength. The most common criticism of the Spyderco Military is that it has too delicate of a point. I look at the fine point as a positive feature that allows me to do more detailed work with the blade than I can with most other EDCs. What's the point of the Microtech DOC's nightmare grind? Who knows. Why does the ZT 560 have such a thick blade? Who knows. Why is extreme jimping so popular and no one talks about how the natural curves of the handle allow it to be held securely without jimping? Don't know. I would still argue that most people here don't value geometry or edge profile.

I suspect that most people here, if they profile their edges at all, go with 40 degrees inclusive or higher. Steels designed with a mixture of alloys and treated for purity and fine grain structure are dismissed by many as marketing hype. I recently acquired a beautiful custom fixed blade in Elmax that I like a lot, but the geometry is so heavy that I don't know if I can use it. The tang is 0.19 inches on a blade 1 inch wide. It came with a 50-degree inclusive edge that was dull. I reprofiled it to 30 degrees. The steel was wonderful to work with and took a fine edge, but the edge shoulders are 0.053 inches wide. It's a beautiful, well-made knife with excellent steel that appears to have an excellent heat treat, but the geometry is too heavy to be a practical, high-performance user.

To me, the problem is that most knives bought and sold are simply for collecting; and that means knife makers are looking for catchy designs that will sell, rather than skillful designs that are designed for high-performance use.
 
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As a chef I've been tinkering with my blades. In my line of work, I need my knives as sharp as possible and low resistance, meaning I remove a lot of shoulder from the blade. Except certain knives I need a robust blade.

Even my folders get their shoulders removed so they glide through cardboard.

No matter how sharp the edge, if shoulder drags on material it Slows the blade and isn't smooth.
 
I am a fan of high wear steels that I can heat treat very hard, grind very thin, and then be able to maintain through stropping. I am always thinking about edge stability. I have heard that term used over and over again since I started making knives, and it's use is even more it seems when discussing the high alloy, high Vanadium, high wear steels.
Practically every steel I use now gets compared to S90V. S90V at 60 Rc with a 600 grit edge is the pinnacle of cutting performance, IMO. That is the most aggressive meat and vegetable cutter, and beside 10V will go through more cardboard than I can stand to cut at any given time. This same steel at 60 Rc can be ground to .006" before sharpening on 3/32" stock and perform any task I want to perform. Yes I will take this knife and carve hard wood and even split clean wood. I do my best to avoid knots when splitting.

My newest test pieces are in S110V at 63-64 Rc. I have one chef knife and 2 EDC's that I will rotate between. The chef knife was .0045" edge before sharpening, and is .006" at the shoulders after. One EDC is .010" edge and the other is .008". They will both get lots of use and not be babied. I grind a knife with the best geometry possible for the given design and heat treat. Most all knives I make are ground to .010" or less before sharpening. I have 3 sets of calipers around my shop to keep tabs on edge thickness.

I have an S30V neck knife, that while it is a good steel, just does not have the edge holding or the edge stability that I am used to from other higher wear steels.

Just this morning I reground a custom knife that was .065" behind the edge. I think that is totally unnecessarily thick. I do not even use edges that thick on choppers.
I have been getting a lot of requests lately for regrinds to zero so the end user can set the bevel and edge to their usage type.
 
The tang is 0.19 inches on a blade 1 inch wide. It came with a 50-degree inclusive edge that was dull. I reprofiled it to 30 degrees. The steel was wonderful to work with and took a fine edge, but the edge shoulders are 0.053 inches wide. It's a beautiful, well-made knife with excellent steel that appears to have an excellent heat treat, but the geometry is too heavy to be a practical, high-performance user.

To me, the problem is that most knives bought and sold are simply for collecting; and that means knife makers are looking for catchy designs that will sell, rather than skillful designs that are designed for high-performance use.

That blade was too narrow for the thickness...
As to the 50 degree edge on a bunch of them, I think that's due to the silly abuse (not use or even hard use) that people seem to think is normal.
"Imma gonna bash this here knife through a cement log with a sledgehammer, and if it chips it's a crappy knife!"

So you end up with knives that cannot cut well, unfortunately.

I like thick knives, but it has to be wide enough for the edge to be, well, an edge. With a wider blade, it can be ground so that it's not too thick behind the edge.
 
I am a fan of high wear steels that I can heat treat very hard, grind very thin, and then be able to maintain through stropping. I am always thinking about edge stability. I have heard that term used over and over again since I started making knives, and it's use is even more it seems when discussing the high alloy, high Vanadium, high wear steels.

My newest test pieces are in S110V at 63-64 Rc. I have one chef knife and 2 EDC's that I will rotate between. The chef knife was .0045" edge before sharpening, and is .006" at the shoulders after. One EDC is .010" edge and the other is .008". They will both get lots of use and not be babied. I grind a knife with the best geometry possible for the given design and heat treat. Most all knives I make are ground to .010" or less before sharpening. I have 3 sets of calipers around my shop to keep tabs on edge thickness.
I have friends in Columbus who have been grinding this steel for kitchen cutlery and they say it is great to work with, thin and sharp, at high hardness. They said they would give me some if I got by the shop. I've got it on my list of things to do. Is it hard to surface finish?
Hi Fred,

No, I should apologize to you. When I read your post, the last line of your statement, I read it the opposite way, that's why I was wondering why you would say that a knife maker wouldn't be concerned with heat treatment, etc., but in fact, you were arguing for those things. I completely mis read your sentence.

I'm going to give myself a long timeout from BF for that one, not sure how I made that mistake.

No problem; I was surprised, I read your post and this one through me. I've done the exact same thing then went back a re-read the post and was shocked at the difference in wording second time around :)
 
The thinner the primary grind, the less important the edge bevel angle is to cutting ability. For example, I have a kitchen knife I'm contemplating grinding down to a zero bevel on the primary, in other words, completely removing the secondary edge bevel. It will be in the range of 3 degrees per side. Now, I am pretty sure this is too thin, so I'll add a secondary bevel of some sort. However, it will be tiny, perhaps 0.001" wide or less, and will thus have minimal influence on cutting ability. Edge angle does have a strong influence on edge holding, so the lower the better in that regard, but this geometry is extreme, so a lower limit will probably be reached quicker than I think.
 
Its fun to experiment and see how low an angle can be ground, taken to zero and then see what hardness rating it can possibly carry. My big kitchen knives, with
2 1/2" height to work with, work well ground at a 2.5 degree bevel per side. The secondary grind at the edge is necessary to overcome the foiling along the zero edge. I agree most any angle can be used with success when a blade is ground this thin. Great cutting comes from the thin shoulders and not so much the actual angle at the apex. With a 2.5 degree grind perside and a thinner stock theres little shoulder to obstruct the cutting action.

Fred
 
There is a great deal of fairly interesting geometry issues that go on at the edge that don't get discussed much. Do you grind with a cooled system for final grinding? The issues with convex vs. beveled edges (not primary grinds) pretty much go away if the primary grind is thin enough. If the final edge bevel is only 1/32" wide or less, it just doesn't make a difference. I haven't found it to make that much difference anyway, but some people will argue the color of a stop sign.

I am glad to see someone else come to the same conclusions for angles on kitchen knives. I have had cracking issues on various foods with various knives and came to the conclusion that a primary bevel angle less than about 3 degrees, give or take, is needed, along with appropriate edge thickness. Even a 10 degree per side bevel on 1 mm stock is too thick to prevent cracking on stiff vegetables and fruits.
 
Question to Big Chris that uses high alloy steels.
We all agree that thin cuts. However, there's view that steel with high alloy doesn't have enough matrix to hold the carbides at acute angles, therefore cannot be ground thin and maintain edge stability. I've been wondering what is the use of adding alloy to steel so it has higher wear resistance, but requires higher angle to keep the carbides from falling out? It seems to be a self defeating goal. :confused:

What is your view and perhaps comparison of the lowest value of thickness behind edge vs the final apex angle that is stable enough for S90V or S110V vs 1095 or 52100? Let's assume EDC use as general purpose.
 
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For any knife that I plan to carry and use regardless of steel S90V, 10V, ELMAX, M390, CPM 20CV, M4, or S30V I grind THIN. I much prefer effortless cutting with occasional maintenance to a "thicker" edge that will have no issues. The largest majority of the steels I work with are PM steels. I have not had an issue with the matrix breaking and carbides falling out through normal use. When doing really heavy carving in hard dry wood like Oak, Maple, or Hickory I have seen small deformities come into the edge, but that is very hard use for a knife edge that is .006" to .008" behind the edge. The only steel I have noticed chipping with at very thin edges and low angles was M2. I found M2 worked best with a thickness around .015", a 24 degree bevel with a 30 degree micro bevel. This was the edge geometry I have had the best longevity with. Generally my EDC knives are sharpened with a 24 degree edge bevel and only stropping is needed for maintenance.
I have no plans to use 1095, I am discontinuing use of O1, and I have not yet used any of the 52100 I have. I have not carried or used much an O1 knife since I started paying attention to edge geometry and edge stability so I can't really speak about how they will hold up.
I recently ground a Z Wear knife to zero from .100" stock. I used it for EDC and household tasks. Every time I would have edge deformation I would sharpen it out till I was not seeing any more issues. What I ended up with was an edge bevel that was .006" behind the edge. That is very much on par with what I have experienced with most all the Powder high alloy steels. An edge that is .006" to .008" behind the edge is thick enough for EDC tasks.
 
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