I don't know if I should be happy for him or not...

I can go back and check the threads, but I'm fairly certain the contract has expired. As for a slap on the wrist. I don't see what can be done, short of a lawsuit.

You seem to be under the impression that everyone that supports RAT thinks the Ontario knives are crap. This is not the case. The RCs are better made, but the Ontario RATs are still nice knives. The point of all this is that Ontario is attempting to steal the RAT name and their designs. Reading the letter from Ontario leaves me to believe that they don't just want to continue making the knives, they want to destroy the designer's company.

Up until Ontario tried to steal the trademarks, RAT seemed to be happy to let Ontario go on making their line. They even did warranty work on Ontarios, when Ontario wouldn't, even though they had no obligation to do this.

If you like your Ontario knives, then good for you. They make some nice knives, and the Rangers should be decent knives if Justin gets a say in quality control.

Keep in mind that Ontario has not made any comments on this issue.
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While not being a public statement. Ontario has sent a letter to RAT. It can be read here.
 
xxx1xxx said:
I haven't had any issues with my knives, it is possible that you got a hold of some of the factory seconds that were floating around. Who ever sold those should have disclosed that to the buyer. Ontario dishing those knives out as primary knives, they were seconds.

.
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I sure didn't pay for a factory second and I trust the person I bought mine from. If it was a second I am sure he would have disclosed that.... A company that wants to maintain a good reputation shouldn't be selling factory seconds to begin with .
 
Contract issues aside, this just doesn't hold any water. Lots of people have fine knives from Ontario, including me. But lots of people don't, also including me. Bill Horn didn't shaft me with a factory second, and it's preposterous to insinuate that he did, in defense of Ontario's QC reputation.
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Please not that I was not implying that Bill sold you factory seconds. I am saying there were some locals going to Ontario, buying the seconds and selling them as the primaries. There were other dealers selling the seconds as seconds, and I am not saying that Bill did this either.

My goodness, are we defensive or what. Sounds more like a PR person for Ontario than a friend of a friend.
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I'm not defending Ontario, I'm defending my own integrity and statement.

PS. I don't have to be a PR person to defend Ontario. Using that analogy most every member here would be considered a PR person for RAT Cutlery.

PSS or PPS ??? I will ad that I do very much like the Rat Cutlery product too, and I would defend their reputation too.
 
xxx1xxx said:
I'm not defending Ontario, I'm defending my own integrity and statement.

PS. I don't have to be a PR person to defend Ontario. Using that analogy most every member here would be considered a PR person for RAT Cutlery.

PSS or PPS ??? I will ad that I do very much like the Rat Cutlery product too, and I would defend their reputation too.
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looks like we can all be friends then !!:D:D:D:D
 
I am saying there were some locals going to Ontario, buying the seconds and selling them as the primaries. There were other dealers selling the seconds as seconds
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Where in the heck did this info come from? Wouldn't the seconds be marked somehow? How did you obtain this odd bit of information?
 
I can go back and check the threads, but I'm fairly certain the contract has expired.
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You will not find it in the threads but it is in the contract. Look at Ontario they are a very reputable company. Thats why Jeff went to them in the first place. They would not make a "bootleg knife"
 
xxx1xxx said:
Please not that I was not implying that Bill sold you factory seconds. I am saying there were some locals going to Ontario, buying the seconds and selling them as the primaries. There were other dealers selling the seconds as seconds, and I am not saying that Bill did this either.
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Understood, and we're all aware that it does happen, with probably every company that lets seconds onto the market. There was just a thread in General about it recently, in fact. But Ontario's QC reputation precedes it, and with good cause. Too many people have had first line production Ontarios with glaring QC problems, bought from reputable dealers, to think that the seconds market is responsible for their low reputation. Your post implied this.
 
Where in the heck did this info come from? Wouldn't the seconds be marked somehow? How did you obtain this odd bit of information?
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I would image they would be marked ( I don't own one). I know this was a topic of discussion last year, I believe Jeff address it then, before RAT Cutlery had their own forum here (I don't know how to look it up).
 
The contract started in April, 2002 and ran for 5 years. As long as Ontario remained in good standing they could produce the designs for a total of 10 years. We never gave them any of our intellectual property, period. Ontario applied for trademarks on our common law marks almost 1 year after the contract had expired which has been proven on several threads here with direct links to the PTO application. Ontario knew these marks were ours since we had the RTAK, RAT, and other names in commerce before Ontario signed us on. I even have emails and hard copies of letters from Ontario stating this before we signed the contract in April, 2002.

I could go on and on (and prove with letters and emails from Ontario and their customers) about quality issues, manufacturing issues, etc. on the RAT line but there is no sense in it. Whatever the eventual outcome is will be for a judge or the attorneys to decide, and whatever that decision is, is what we will bound to. In the meantime we're concentrating on RAT Cutlery and just letting the attorneys handle all of this.

We truly wish Ontario the best of success in this market. We also wish Justin and Ontario well on their collaboration. Justin is a very good friend of ours and I think he will make sure that quality and integrity is maintained on his line. In fact, I'm looking forward to buying some of the new pieces when they come out and review them in the jungle and for some of the magazines. If I know Justin like I think I do then I bet they will be excellent workhorses. One of the Ontario reps at the Blade Show mentioned that he was glad they signed Justin since the Ranger stuff would take up where RAT is leaving off, so I think this venture will be very successful for both Justin and Ontario. In fact, I think Ranger knives will be bigger for Ontario than RAT ever was. Again, We wish them the absolute best.

Basically, RAT Cutlery just wants to be left alone to do our thing with OUR property and Ontario can do their thing with their property. There is plenty of room in this industry for both of us.

Onward!

Jeff
 
R.A.T. said:
Basically, RAT Cutlery just wants to be left alone to do our thing with OUR property and Ontario can do their thing with their property. There is plenty of room in this industry for both of us.

Jeff
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And they all said "AMEN!"
 
Jeff, you presented that like a man with Integrity and Honor. That is why Your company is successful. You guys make a heck of a knife, keep up the good work!

Yes Cpl. Punishment "Amen"
 
Justin will just go into Ontario balls out and F**k them up if they screw around with him. :D
 
xxx1xxx,

First of all you sound like someone I know (and like) but I won't make any assumptions. ;)

I appreciate your comments. Hopefully this whole thing can eventually be resolved. I had one of Ontario's people tell me something at the Blade Show that made a lot of sense. You know the Blade Show venue is not that big, but enclosed in that room is the WHOLE American made knife industry. So, once you look at it that way, the actual people that make up the industry (not counting customers) is relatively small. The Ontario person told me that he told Ontario this (paraphrasing): "Look around, this is the whole industry. What happens to someone here travels around pretty fast. You can't burn bridges in this industry, and there's enough room in this industry for everyone." If Ontario would listen to this man they would be wiser for it. We don't need make enemies in this industry since it hurts us all.

Onward!

Jeff
 
Jeff you always have to make so much sense. ;) I feel a little better about Ranger and Ontario now, but still a little skeptical. We'll all find out how this will go down soon enough.
 
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