I don't know. Maybe I missed something

cant find it.
im on the edit profile page in another window,but dont see what your talking about
:confused:
 
Spark,

You look real silly in the pic under your name!!! You looked much better in that tutu pic that James took at Blade in 2000!!!

On a more serious note, what happened to you asking us all for feedback on prices? Most posts agreed that $20 was a fair price. You have now raised it 50% to $30. Why did you ask us in the first place if you already had a number in mind??

Michael

Member who has been away for a few weeks....
 
$20 is something you guys came up with, not me. I didn't put any price suggestions out there, nor did I ask for feedback on it, because I knew that I'd get a bunch of "$1 a year!" responses. The $30 figure is a baseline number I came up with looking at looking at what our monthly hosting fees are costing.

Basically, if we can ever get to the point where 100 people sign up for a premium membership per month (not likely, but it could happen), then our current hosting / infrastructure costs would be covered for BladeForums.com, and that would make me extremely happy - it'd mean that no matter what, the site could remain open, even under someone else's ownership should anything ever happen. Lower the price to $20 per year, and we have to have half again as many paying members to even cover costs - 150 new members, per month (or 1800 per year). Lower that to $10 per year, and we'd require 300 paying members each month, or 3600 per year, and we all know that isn't going to happen.

So, the $30 per year is a nice, even figure that breaks down into nice, easy to swallow bites. At $2.50 per month, it's really a drop in the bucket.

So, if you want to discuss that, feel free. I'll keep it in mind.

Kevin
 
Spark, I don't know how you do it, but this thread is one of the most entertaining ones I've ever seen! You are a genius. :)

Where else can we be treated to name calling, hyperventilating posts, calm rationalizations, AND Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' four stages of reconciling death applied to Blade Forums!!

You really ought to send flyers to high school teachers on the educational aspects of BF! Charge em say, fifty bucks a year, too!

Elsewhere, I've seen monologues on Goth culture, a sad documentary video of a sexually abused cow, a discussion of the context of Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky poem and it's intrusion into the English language (with asides concerning knives, of all things!), and of course, political discourse or intercourse, or something like that.

Keep up the good work, and I really think everyone should remember E. Kuber-Ross' little known fifth stage of whatever she rambled on about: Chill out!

Karl

P.S. I may one day become a deluxe member, but at least I finally ordered something from 1SKS the other day! Just brownnosing...:D
 
This is what happens when W&C is down, no place to vent the steam...

I am in favour of a 'standard membership' at say $10 per year that grants a couple of extra things over basic. I would go for the pictures and the private messages. This would give you the 'basic' which was free, the 'standard' which was the middle rung and the 'premium' for sellers. I would ask at least $30 for the 'premium' membership.

I am 110% behind you Spark on this. With so many 'free' internet services going out of business, why do we expect Spark to give us a free ride? Come on people! The bigger BF gets the more he has to pay to keep the thing running, give the man a break. Would anyone else like to run a loss making business? Hope it starts making a bit of cash soon. When I get my finances sorted, I will sign up for the $30 membership. I won't really use many of the features, but I want to support this forum, that has put up with me for so long. I owe Spark that much at least.
 
Hey Spark, here's a very calm, non-hyperventilating suggestion. Why not run a poll like the one you did for acceptance of the new software? You know, the one with the 'sucks donkey balls' :) option. Only in this one, give several options as to how much each member would be willing to pay. I think the General's comments are right on the 'money'. #1- Free basic no frills membership. #2- $10.00 annual fee for standard membership with full use of all available software additions. #3- $30.00 annual fee for selling and dealing with all the perks.

I will pay $10.00 for a 'standard' membership with the bells and whistles. I think there are alot more folks here that would too given the opportunity. You'll never know unless you give us a chance to tell you. What do you say?
 
Well...I think $30 is too much. I'm all for a selling fee...but not $30. The only people that will be hurt by this type fee are those selling a very few knives each year. Dealers will stay...as will custom sellers. But $30...man. And don't give me that $2.50 per month...unless you are going to offer the option to pay for a single month in order to sell for a short time. Then it will be fine...but lots of work keeping track...I'm afraid.

I really think that a lower fee would generate more revenue. Either way, I doubt you can cover the site's costs. I think $20 would come closer than $30.

Truthfully, I enjoy the site so much that I'll probably go for the first year just to try and be a team player...but...then again...I may not (one of my son's is having some ongoing health problems...and it kina depends on insurance coverage...bummer). I've donated money to similar sites before...just to keep them going.

Anyway, whatever comes to pass, I would hope that posters and lurkers would keep in mind that this kind of site is very expensive to run (from a monetary and time standpoint). I would also hope that moderators and administrators keep in mind that the real value and content of the site is provided by posters. Neither can exist without the other. It really is a "team" sport. No matter what...be nice and try to be empathetic with others' views.

I've seen sites wither and die because the posters and site owners got into defensive name calling...and the posters just went away. Just a cautionary note.

Well...I'll try and come up with the $30 (sigh). If I don't...it won't be 'cause I don't think the site is worth it...although it's more worth $20... :)
 
I'm not going to post a poll on this, that would be stupid. Everyone would vote for "Leave it free!" and nothing would be solved.

Look guys, I'm not going to get in an argument about what costs should be. Any price posted is going to be "too high" for a vocal segment of members. That's common sense. If you have some compelling feedback for me on this, I'll listen, but don't be asinine.

The leveled membership does sound interesting, where you can use certain features, but not sell. However, it will <b>not</b> be $10, so don't get your heart set on that figure.

I said it before, and I'll say it again - we have real world costs to consider. People can toss around figures like $1 or $10 all they want, but only in Fantasy land will we get 3000 / 300 new paying members, each month. Sorry, but that's just not reality - it's fantasy.

Kevin
 
Spark, I think you missed what I was trying to get across. Poor communication skiils on my part perhap. What I was getting at is to do a census and get a preview or head count of how many people would be willing to pay the different levels so you can make an intelligent decision about implementing the pricing structure. I didn't mean an opinion poll to see what people thought about it. You're the man in charge around here. We all know that and respect you for it. But, I really feel that you're second guessing yourself and selling yourself short on potential income for the forum.

If you post a census asking how many would be willing to pay X dollars for standard membership and how many would be willing to pay X dollars for a premium membership, you could calculate the possibilities and have some fairly solid figures to go on instead of pie in the sky figures from 'thinking' you know how many are going to sign up. I'm talking about 'extra' income for the forum, not just income derived from charging the sellers and dealers for the services you provide. I'm on your side here Spark. I'm really trying to help in the most productive way I know how.

Stupid and asinine? I'll take that on the chin because I know you are at the center of this whole thing and probably feel a little overwhelmed by it all. I know I would. If you don't think it's a valid suggestion, I'll quit bothering you and just sit back and watch as you have suggested. If on the other hand, you think it's a good idea I'll volunteer my help in whatever form I can offer it. For what it's worth.
 
Kevin,

There will always be those who want a free ride. It's just not fair for the provider of the service. If you were into charity, you'd need really deep pockets to provide this service.

Whether the fee is $20, $30, or $40 (or whatever), our understanding value is the key. My wife and I subscribe to about 18 different periodicals (at between $12-$45 annually). What I get from BF is like 5-to-1 better than any single publication I get.

Charge what you want...have membership tiers…whatever. It also sounds like you're also providing the forums for free to any person who wants a great assortment of basic features.

No one should be complaining here. No one! Everyone should be grateful that BF has the presence it does on the Internet, providing the service it does. Anyone bellyaching about voluntary, moderate membership fees (for advanced user options) is cheep and selfish. Anyone wanting to sell on these forums free-of-charge is a freeloader.

My apologies to those who don't agree with me. But in a free-market economy, the business owner is the boss. He either retires rich, goes bankrupt, or works long, hard hours trying to keep his food on his table and clothes on his kids.

Go for it, Kevin. You've got my support. May you retire a rich man (rather than one of the other two options)!
:)
 
I suppose the $10 for the 'standard' membership was a little low. The only reason I used that value was because many internet charges range from $10 to $20 for things like membership and plug-ins. I was not suggesting that $10 be the price, it was just an example for arguments sake. I disagree with the point that a 'standard' membership would get you ALL the software options. Something other than the seller rights must be availible for those forking out. The other point is if you charge say $20 for the 'standard' and $30 for the premium, then I bet you will make more than offering just the 'basic' and 'premium'. I honestly think that a lot of us here want to help out as much as possible, I for one do!

If I were to suggest a price for the 'standard' membership I would go for around $17-20 and leave the Premium with all the software options at $30. This I think would offer a genuine 'value' for those of us that want to help out. but don't sell knives.

One problem is if you only offer a free and a $30 price bracket, it is all or nothing and I am afraid many will opt for nothing. Such is life. Those who want to sell will pay the $30 as well as those who can afford to or really want the 'extras'

To me, $20 to get the private messaging and the ability to post pictures without Photopoint (which now is no longer free)would be well worth it. I cannot afford either right now as cash is VERY tight, but for Bladeforums and you Spark, I would pay the $20 to help out regardless, I would go without some magazines for a couple of months :) .

At the end of the day, this is just my opinion. I don't want to insult or offend anyone, esp you Spark. It is your playground and I am happy to be here with your permission. Thank you.
 
Only read thru page 1 before deciding to post. Not having noticed the size of this thread, I expected the chance after reading e_utopia's 1st post to tell him thanks for the link to the explanation in G,B,&U. Till that point in time, I too felt like I was wandering about in limbo, not understanding what was going on, and why others seemed to know so much more than I.

I basically stopped reading the Exchange forums after the 1st weekend in June. I did check out the individual sales forum just briefly, and found myself writing to 3 or 4 sellers, and actually making a purchase of a cool knife I flat didn't need. My addiction has become real. I always read G,B,&U when in the Exchange group, basically reading only the negative posts, so I could be forewarned. I started a couple good threads there, where praise seemed due.

If an announcement can be placed on every forum, I think simply doing that would have precluded a lot of frustration both by us who were ignorant, and those answering the questions, so many of which were unnecessary. I even posted a bug thread on the service forum, that simply reading the original announcement would have precluded my needing to ask the question.

This whole outfit is about communication. Those who received no communication but tried to get info, shouldn't be held up for scorn or anger by those who failed to make the communication, IMO. I know now that I will be getting a Premium membership. Took only a quick reading of the announcement for me to understand why that is my best choice, and what getting it will mean/provide to me.
 
Spark,

Basically, if we can ever get to the point where 100 people sign up for a premium membership per month...


Let us not forget renewals!!! If only 50 people signed up every month for the next 2 years, and they all chose to renew, the income at the end of that period would be $36,000 per year or $3000 per month. At the end of 4 years the income from membership alone could be $6000 a month.

...and that isn't figuring in how many of the 10,000 existing members are going to sign up!!!

Sounds like you have figured a way to make this thing pay for itself....

Michael
 
$30? You want me to pay $30 for a full "Whistles and Bells" premium membership? :eek:

Ok, I can do that. I'll pay $30 for a full membership....just as soon as Randall's get moved out of the "For Sale, Production Fixed Blade" forum, and over to "For Sale, Custom Fixed Blade" forum where they belong....or at least until a "For Sale, Handmade Fixed Blade" forum is started... :p

Just a thought...;) ;) ;)
 
Lets review a little history here....

Anyone still use rec.knives on the usenet? Its still functioning, still got lots of material (though it has declined markedly as forums like this have grown), and still FREE, and has <i>no advertising</i> either.

Sure it doesn't have convenient graphics, nor all the wizbang stuff we find here, but you can still point to pictures elsewhere on the net. Why does this stuff work? Because its <b>free</b>. Because <b>free</b> means that everyone can participate. No one is inconvenienced, no one has to concern themselves about yet another bill for what is primarily (and except for the knife makers and sellers) entertainment. Our international friends don't have to worry about the exchange rate or how they are going to subscribe in U.S. dollars. The moment you put a mandatory subscription price on things for even the basic level of service (I'm not saying that is what Spark is doing), 90% of your users go away, and what's left eventually peters out because there isn't enough new blood to keep the conversations interesting.

Why should Spark loose money? He shouldn't. That was the whole point of <i><b>advertising sponsored</b></i> free internet services. We see advertising here. Someone pays to put those adds here so that the LARGE NUMBER of people surfing this site (note the LARGE NUMBER because its FREE) can click on an ad and go to another site and maybe buy something.

Every successful internet site other than those narrowed to some specific professional group, with the exception of porn, is FREE. They work because only FREE brings in large volumes of users and you need that volume to turn conversation and provide a sufficient marketplace of potential buyers to advertise to. If you end up charging everyone something, then 90% of your users go away so advertisers have no motive what-so-ever to pay for ads, and the people who are left soon discover that with so few people and barely a trickle of new blood, things don't stay interesting very long.

This does not mean that there shouldn't or couldn't be various levels of for-pay services. Sellers should certainly pay for the priviledge of having a ready-made market place that concentrates people interested in what <i>they</i> are selling - knives in this case. If people want private communications, and perhaps some other related services, then perhaps a multi-tiered structure would be appropriate, but unless you leave the <i>basic functionality</i> alone and free (and imho that has to include pictures since this business is all about visuals) its all going to come apart very fast. If what is left that is "for free" is too limited, there comes to be no over-riding reason to be here as compared to say rec.knives.

Now before you all flame me, let me point out that I've been as much of a sport around here as the rest of you. I subscribed to Spark's "online knife magazine" and haven't been able to read a single issue since the first. What happened to that? My $30 or what ever it was might as well have been burned to keep me warm for a few minutes. I'm not going to do it again. Sure I like talking about knives, but I liked talking about them on the usenet before BF existed. If BF ever ceases to exist or becomes for-pay only, I'll just go back to rec.knives along with about 8000 of the other subscribers here. Will it be as cool as this? No, but then my knife hobby doesn't make me any money, it costs money, so I can live without a little "cool" if I have to.
 
Actually, that was Mike's "online magazine", and, IIRC, everyone who subscribed was invited to use the money as store credit for shopping in 1SKS.

Like I've always said, if you prefer USENET, use USENET. Sure, it doesn't have any of the cool features, nor does it have an easy to read web format, nor does it have any of the appeal, nor does it have any immediate threading / real-time interface, but hey, it's <b>free</b>. You get what you pay for, after all.

In the meantime, if you want the perks, it's only fair that we can ask for some sort of compensation. That's why you don't see eBay on USENET - just because it's <b>free</b> doesn't make it <b>better</b>. So, if you prefer that format, by all means, go back to it. No one is holding you back after all.

Kevin
 
Kevin... Some of what you say makes sense, some doesn't. You have a lot of fantastic skills. Compared to you and many of the others who frequent these hallowed halls I am an unshod babe in the woods with little to offer those who, at a moments notice, could leap out of an airplane into any environment on earth and survive with naught but a knife, or bare hands if you had to!

At the same time, in my limited and very narrow life, I just happen to have been using, writing, researching, and reporting on computer communications and conferencing systems since 1980! I may not always understand the rationalle behind some of the economics, but I sure as hell know the sociology. What appeal the usenet has or does not have is a value judgement. It doesn't have "chat" built in, but its easy enough to click over to an IRC window or use Yahoo or AOL IM for that. I'm not sure what you mean by "immediate threading". My usnet reader software does much better sub-threading and thread-following than we see here, though in my opinion, flatter is simpler. I turn off the more sophisticated sub-threading capabilities of my reader because its easier (for me) to read messages in simple time sequence.

What the usenet has is <i>user volume</i>. I thought that was what advertisers wanted? Until the advent of web browsers, all publically available on-line services were for-pay. None of them ever had the volume required to attract advertisers. Then someone hit upon an interesting idea... What if you give your service away for free? You get not hundreds or a few thousand users, but tens of thousands, and that is a market advertisers will pay for! So what happened?

Why isn't BFC paying for itself through its advertising? Why would not advertising plus the subscriptions of people who actually expect to earn money from this market place (the makers and sellers) be enough to cover your expenses and then some? If you have to charge everyone to cover your requirements, then you have a real dilema, because 80% or more of the people who participate (and buy knives from those advertising and posting here) will leave. This is not a threat, it is an observation derived from 20 years of experience with these services! If 80% or more leave, then who will the advertisers be left advertising to? With whom will knife makers be chatting up in friendly ways on the forums? I'll tell you who, other knife makers and sellers only, because they will be the only ones left.

Sure you'll keep (for a while) the real die-hard collectors who buy a knife or more every month, but the vast majority of people here, like me, buy a few knives a year. It takes a lot of us to add up to enough people to be a reasonably sized market that will attract advertisers and knife makers.

If you're going to keep this market place attractive to me and those like me, you've got to give us free access. Make your money by taking a cut from the guy I buy a knife from whose work I saw here in this market! That makes sense. Charging me to get into the market doesn't make sense, because I'll just take my business to other existing free markets (and there are others besides the usenet too). What will happen is that all the sellers will eventually migrate to those markets too because most of the buyers have gone there, at first, mostly to talk which is 99% of what people do here. That is why you can't have an Ebay on the usenet, because other-than-communications services are intrinsic to what Ebay does. That is not the case for BFC. For you, the other-than-communications services are an adjunct, not your central function.

Believe me I feel the pain of your dilema. I'm sure you grew this enterprise in the full expectation that advertising plus fees for direct marketing (sellers) would be all that was needed, and the market would be open to all comers with everybody happy because the buyer doesn't have to pay anything unless he actually buys, and the seller, while he has to pay to be in the market knows that he is going to be surrounded by large volumes of people who all want to buy knives or they wouldn't be here. I guess the magic trick is to find a level of service (your hosting, hardware, software, etc) whose cost is actually covered by those expecting to make money from the enterprise. I'd be happy to help you find that happy medium if I can be of service.

My hat's off to you, and I do wish you luck which ever way you decide to go.
 
But the service IS still free and a LOT better!

You only have to pay if you want more features than before, oh and you get more features as well ANYWAY, then we had before.

It was my idea to give us an inbetween level of pricing for those of us who want the 'extra extras' but who like me don't sell on line. Thus we have the $20 point. What is $20? A few beers and a burger for hecks sake! NOTHING! Think how many hours we spend here per week and this place is GREAT value even at $50 per year! Look how much Photopoint charge to let you post pics here, look what $20 gets you. In my stupid, daft, inconsiderate and selfish opinion we who want to keep this place running and want the extra's aught to pay as much as we can. I can't really afford to pay even $20 at the moment, but I did. I did this as I want to support this place and I like the people we have here, it is a good place and fights aside, we are a good bunch. Don't want to pay? You DON'T! It is still a lot better than before for FREE! I can't see ANY problem:) . Why are we still talking about this? Case closed IMHO.:rolleyes:
 
Matthew, apparrently you haven't been reading closely, or have missed the salient points of what we've been saying.

It's only going to be Pay-to-post to sell knives. It's only going to be Pay-for-features (other-than-communication in your words) for certain features, like private messaging and such. Otherwise posting is still free. I fail to see just what you have a problem with.

As for your other points, banner advertising is not covering our costs, period. When even Yahoo cannot survive on what they are making on Banner Ads, then it's pretty much accepted that they are not successful as a revenue model. Furthermore, when dealers are able to sell here for free, they have no incentive to use other advertising media. Thus, we are discontinuing free selling for dealers.

There is a trade off in anything you do. If all we wanted was volume, then USENET would do just fine for knife discussion. BladeForums.com is a much more attractive, easier to use format. That is why BladeForums.com get's over 1000 posts per day, and rec.knives get's an order of magnitude less. If we have to charge a fee to continue with such an attractive, feature rich, easy to use service, then that's what we have to do.

Put it another way - you can go to McDonalds, and get a Combo Meal for $4.00. You'll get a burger, fries and a drink. If you want to supersize (and get bigger portions), it will cost you a little extra.

Sure, you could go out and buy the potatoes, ground beef, make your own soda, but what you pay for is the convenience. End of Sermon.

Another example - the Wall Street Journal - if you want the information it has, you have to pay a price for it. Otherwise, if you are content to get your news from Joe.Mama@angiedaddy.com, you are free to use USENET. Again, it's a tradeoff - you can either compare apples to apples, or apples to oranges.

Kevin
 
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