I feel safer batoning than I do swinging an axe/hatchet.

[upnorth]

so, whenever the inevitable debate between people who baton versus people who chop comes up, people invariably say this statement: "Chopping with an axe is fine, but if I'm fatigued in the wilderness I feel less safe chopping. So, I choose my knife to baton with."

now, feeling less safe in awkward conditions chopping makes sense from a survival stand point. I can't disagree with it. the part that boggles my mind is that not only can you use an axe to baton with, but axes are far more efficient at it than knives are . I mean, people batoned with axes far before knives, and they are built in a way which makes them much more efficient at the act.

I can't think of a single scenario where a knife is more efficient or safer to split wood with. am I wrong?

I'm not hating on batoning with a knife, I get why some people like doing it. I just can't wrap my head around the backwards reasons people use to defend certain aspects of it.

I use\do both. Knives, hatchet, axe. I try to stay away from battoning a knife if I have a more efficient alternative. I am always cognizant that axes and hatchets can inflict severe wounds and I have made efforts to educate myself in their safe use\handling. There are simply times when I do not want to hump a lot of cutting tools and only have a knife on me. I will use that if I have no alternative. Light weight folding saws also reduce some of my knife battoning needs. It is a judgement call at the time with whatever tools are on hand.

 

[trestle]

...since i have been camping, I have heard of an ambulance being called because someone missed with an axe/hatchet & hit their toe/s, foot or leg. Ask any full time employee at a State Park where fires are allowed. Many factors involved, i know but it happens none-the-less.

The flip side of this however, is you're (not you TwinStick) talking about someone who can't use a hatchet or axe and the suggestion is they might be safer to wield a large fixed-blade knife. My guess is the person who takes out their toe with an axe or hatchet is very likely to be even more afraid of the fixed blade knife. Not trying to snark your comment or experience, I just have a hard time picturing someone who is uncomfortable with an axe feeling more comfortable with a large knife. I'm talking about sheeple, not the forum users who prefer to baton. Preference is different.

 

[tirod3]

It comes to mind that this has already been decided in some quarters. Reading thru the required equipment a bush pilot must carry flying in Canada or Alaska are two specific items - an axe, and a knife. You can't keep warm enough in frigid conditions trying to baton up a woodpile for a long cold night. Better to be fatigued doing it with an axe, than freeze because you didn't use the more efficient tool.

Somebody want's to baton with the only knife they have, that's their option, I don't see any advantage in beating their cutlery in a survival situation where the loss of an essential tool creates even more risk. You definitely shouldn't be hitting yourself with an axe, no sense either breaking your knife doing a job the axe could do daily for years.

Don't mind me, I just see fundamental misunderstandings at play.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I usually carry a machete rather than an axe simply because the machete is a more versatile tool. I can split kindling with it and make wooden wedges if I end up needing more substantial splitting power. I also typically have a folding saw handy but it sees much less action. An axe, however, is inarguably THE best tool for dedicated felling and splitting. I'd just be screwed if I had to cut my way through a blackberry thicket with one or take out scrub brush.

 

[dogstar]

You can be careful using an axe. Just learn the basic principles (mind your follow through, let the axe hit the ground before it hits you by kneeling, don't use your axe at night, etc...). I don't go crazy swinging an axe. Most of the time I choke up and make short, punching blows. As others said, you can baton an axe or make wedges. If you saw me using an axe, you'd probably say I was a pu--y, but hey, I have all 10 fingers and toes.

At the end of the day, stay in your comfort zone. If that means using a big knife instead of an axe, by all means...

 

[Boats]

"Chopping with an axe is fine, but if I'm fatigued in the wilderness I feel less safe chopping. So, I choose my knife to baton with."

When I read something like that, I view it as an admission of inexperience with an axe or hatchet or just plain old ignorance. I have a few friends who have to baton, because they couldn't swing an axe to save themselves. These guys marvel that I can hit what I am aiming for on a round twice in a row or more with a two handed axe swing or a hatchet. To me, a meeting of impact point with aiming point is not magic, it's the result of countless repetitions. Having to place a knife on a round and beat into it for "safety's sake" strikes me as the equivalent of having to pee sitting down for fearing a miss of the entire toilet.

Axe skills are simply not that common these days. As I grew up with wood heat, and surrounded by forests, and still use wood heat in my own home, the axe/maul/splitter/sledge routine is but muscle memory.

In skilled and experienced hands, the axe or hatchet is not dangerous to one's limbs or digits. If they are, you aren't doing it right.

 

[goodeyesniper]

I have batonned with my knives as well as chopped and have never wished i had an axe or hatchet. It takes little effort when done correctly and you choose proportionate pieces of wood to chop / baton. If i ever want something a little more heavy duty, i just pull out my khukri, which is plenty enough to get anything iv needed to do done. The only reason i choose to use the tools i do, is because they work, that's it. Also, I have never felt like i was doing more work than i should be or that i was over exterting using these techniques.

interesting, as a khukri is at least as heavy and unwieldy as a light axe, but far less efficient at wood processing.

don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to mock anyone's choice here. I almost always only take a single folder when I'm out in the woods. it's just interesting to me to see people trying to rationalize their preferences in close minded ways.

 

[XiaolongJackson]

You're not wrong. I suspect that folks who think that way do so for 3 reasons:

1. They are unfamiliar with using axes or hatchets. More familiar with the feel of a knife. "Feels" safer to them.
2. They find batoning with a knife more fun and more rewarding. Safety is just a rationalization.
3. They don't do a lot of it.

The only time I baton with a knife is when I am playing around. I do a lot of work on my property and almost always use the correct tool for the job which are saws, hatchets, and axes for heavy duty work. I can't conceive of doing work like that on any regular basis with a knife - even a large one.

But, JMO.

I agree. The reason why most of us are here is because we like knives, not hatchets, screwdrivers, pliers, or other "dedicated" tools. Chopping wood and batoning are just excuses for us to buy more knives and often the only justification or rationalization we have for buying some of the bigger knives besides "because I like them" or "in case of the looming zombie apocalypse".

 

[sideways]

I'll take a (chain)saw and axe over a knife any day. Actually give me a tractor driven woodprocessor and call it a day.

 

[ISKski]

The last time I batonned wood was this past April on a camping trip. It had rained for several days prior to my arrival and it was getting down to the low 30's at night. I was using a 7'' camp knife forged by a Mastersmith to split Hickory I had sawed up.

I will never forget the feeling of stupidity that came over me when I heard the ringing of an ax coming through the trees behind me - while I was whacking away at these super tough logs getting no where I could hear round after round getting split, almost effortlessly... I laughed at myself, knowing i had consciously left my ax in favor of my "camp knife" and vowed never to do that again.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I agree. The reason why most of us are here is because we like knives, not hatchets, screwdrivers, pliers, or other "dedicated" tools. Chopping wood and batoning are just excuses for us to buy more knives and often the only justification or rationalization we have for buying some of the bigger knives besides "because I like them" or "in case of the looming zombie apocalypse".

Mmmmmmm vintage integral bolster forged screwdrivers......

I agree with this opinion other than folks that take an approach similar to mine--carrying a tool other than an axe because of wanting increased range of function at the sacrifice of wood processing ability.

 

[Shotgun]

If an ax feels awkward, practice. Smacking a fixed blade until you split through wood works, but expends so much more energy for the work accomplished. There is no excuse for not learning how to use an ax. If done right, the ax is just as accurate and safe, if not more so, than batonning with a knife.

Swinging a hatchet is not safer than using a baton even when done "right". This is obvious so I won't even argue the point further. Also, it doesn't take more energy. The only way that splitting with a hatchet is easier is if you have nicely sawn ends where you can stand the log on end and chop through in one go. That means lugging around yet another tool to saw those ends. If you don't have those nicely sawn ends then your either splitting from the side which reguires more energy or you baton the hatchet. Then it's the same.

I think when people think of batoning there's a problem with scale. I'm not batoning my knife through a cord of wood to heat my house for the winter. I'm batoning A log to get a few handfulls of kindling. Why bring a 20 ounce hatchet to do what a 4 ounce knife can do? Even car camping where I can bring whatever I want as I'm not concerned with weight, I bring a Scrapyard 711. It's proven to be WAY more efficient and faster then a hatchet. On an order of magnitude of at least twice as fast. Frankly it amazed me how fast the first time I did it. You guys can poopoo this all you want but to me it's an obvious winner for the type of wood work I do. For car camping at least.

And to all the guys who say "the right tool for the job." I just laugh at that now. If a 4 ounce, stick tang, <3/32" thick mora can do the job efficiently and without breakage then how is a 20 ounce hatchet the "right tool?" Maybe it's the right tool if you go to the woods to get a workout. I go to the woods to relax so lugging around the extra weight isn't my bag.

 

[Concat]

Batoning for kindling is pretty much the most I would do. And even then, only a fixed blade...

But really I usually just grab a dead pine or spruce branch for kindling and old man's beard for fire starter - birch bark if I'm lucky, or dry dead grass. The less processing I have to do, the better. Anything small enough to baton with a knife just ends up in the fire whole anyway. Anything larger is when the axe gets brought out.

 

[pvicenzi]

An ax may not be safer, but it is not more dangerous than batonning. I grew up in a house that was heated with wood and never drew blood with my ax. However, I cut myself several times with a knife. Baton if you wish, but don't claim it is safer than using an ax.

Swinging a hatchet is not safer than using a baton even when done "right". This is obvious so I won't even argue the point further. Also, it doesn't take more energy. The only way that splitting with a hatchet is easier is if you have nicely sawn ends where you can stand the log on end and chop through in one go. That means lugging around yet another tool to saw those ends. If you don't have those nicely sawn ends then your either splitting from the side which reguires more energy or you baton the hatchet. Then it's the same.

I think when people think of batoning there's a problem with scale. I'm not batoning my knife through a cord of wood to heat my house for the winter. I'm batoning A log to get a few handfulls of kindling. Why bring a 20 ounce hatchet to do what a 4 ounce knife can do? Even car camping where I can bring whatever I want as I'm not concerned with weight, I bring a Scrapyard 711. It's proven to be WAY more efficient and faster then a hatchet. On an order of magnitude of at least twice as fast. Frankly it amazed me how fast the first time I did it. You guys can poopoo this all you want but to me it's an obvious winner for the type of wood work I do. For car camping at least.

And to all the guys who say "the right tool for the job." I just laugh at that now. If a 4 ounce, stick tang, <3/32" thick mora can do the job efficiently and without breakage then how is a 20 ounce hatchet the "right tool?" Maybe it's the right tool if you go to the woods to get a workout. I go to the woods to relax so lugging around the extra weight isn't my bag.

 

[Shotgun]

I agree. The reason why most of us are here is because we like knives, not hatchets, screwdrivers, pliers, or other "dedicated" tools. Chopping wood and batoning are just excuses for us to buy more knives and often the only justification or rationalization we have for buying some of the bigger knives besides "because I like them" or "in case of the looming zombie apocalypse".

This is actually not true for me. I love axes of all types. Even more than I like knives. I just have no use for them. The ones I've had for camping have all been given away or sold. I have a tomahawk still but only because I like it. It's the one edged tool that I have that I have 0 use for.

 

[Shotgun]

An ax may not be safer, but it is not more dangerous than batonning. I grew up in a house that was heated with wood and never drew blood with my ax. However, I cut myself several times with a knife. Baton if you wish, but don't claim it is safer than using an ax.

And I've never cut myself with a knife while batoning. I'll claim what I like.

Edit: This boggles my mind. What do you guys envision when someone says they baton? How on earth can ANYONE say it's as dangerous as swinging a hatchet? This flies in the face of any and all experiences I've had in the woods using both knives and hatchets. It's just patently not true. The only thing I can think of is you guys are picturing the guy dressed in full body armor doing batoning "tests." That is dangerous. A couple light taps with a 10 ounce wooden club is MORE dangerous then swinging full bore with a 16 ounce razor blade? Someone do that math for me as I just don't see it.

 

[pvicenzi]

Claim what you want, but you are wrong.

And I've never cut myself with a knife while batoning. I'll claim what I like.

Edit: This boggles my mind. What do you guys envision when someone says they baton? How on earth can ANYONE say it's as dangerous as swinging a hatchet? This flies in the face of any and all experiences I've had in the woods using both knives and hatchets. It's just patently not true. The only thing I can think of is you guys are picturing the guy dressed in full body armor doing batoning "tests." That is dangerous. A couple light taps with a 10 ounce wooden club is MORE dangerous then swinging full bore with a 16 ounce razor blade? Someone do that math for me as I just don't see it.

 

[MatthewSB]

I almost chopped my manparts off with a hatchet after it glanced off of a log. I've never come close to hurting myself batoning a knife through a log.

Also, another vote for "axes and hatchets are unnecessary weight".

now, feeling less safe in awkward conditions chopping makes sense from a survival stand point. I can't disagree with it. the part that boggles my mind is that not only can you use an axe to baton with, but axes are far more efficient at it than knives are . I mean, people batoned with axes far before knives, and they are built in a way which makes them much more efficient at the act.

I was told not to baton with an axe, it compresses the eye and smushes the metal outwards working the head loose.

At least that's what the Axe rulebook says that comes with a Gransfors Bruks hatchet.

 

[Saint Loke]

This discussion surfaces every 4 weeks or so. The same arguments, repeated to eternity. What I do like are all the people who put a disclaimer at the end of their post, saying "your mileage may vary" or something similar. Because it actually may, and forcing these ultimate truths on people you don't know, who live in places you have no experience with, is kind of arrogant. Where I live I have no need for a hatchet or ax, when I go camping I don't even need a saw any larger than a Bacho Laplander.

That is because there are far between trees up here. The wood that I process are usually pretty light weight, not more than 20 cm in diameter. When I need to split em up, I baton. Simply because I use the bk9 as my all around knife, and using a large blade saves weight I need for other important gear. It's not ideal for small tasks, but through using it I adapt to its size. My system works fine with just the knife and saw, but ymmv.

 

[gremlin moon]

For me, at this stage in my life, camping is now about doing the absolute bare minimum -- "roughing it" not to "endure" but to avoid as many of life's daily tedious chores as possible. So less is more in that regard (i.e. just a knife). At home I use an axe. I am getting a chopper out of pure desire but I am telling my wife I really need it for the brush pile and fire starting. I also have kids who I will let baton smaller pieces with a knife (under supervision of course) but they are in no way ready for an axe or hatchet.

This is a cool video (imho) if you haven't already seen it:
[video=youtube;pLULLzZuMn8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLULLzZuMn8[/video]