Cliff Stamp
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He is young and has a lot of passion, that isn't a bad thing. Strider certainly did their fair share of chest beating.
-Cliff
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I have decided to Test a $350 Plus STRIDER
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He is young and has a lot of passion, that isn't a bad thing. Strider certainly did their fair share of chest beating.
-Cliff
jdm61
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Mr. Cliff, sir........do you make knives of your own?
t1mpani
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You'll notice I spoke of both applying the same experiment to multiple identical knives, and encouraged follow-on experimentations with different parameters. Rereading my post I just don't find it particularly negative towards the tester--indeed half of it is very much opposed to those detracting from him. I merely pointed out that this, like any other single test, is narrow in the real information it yields, and was cautioning against drawing too many rock-solid conclusions based upon it.
Fair enough, but we're not just talking about Strider, are we? Did Cold Steel make these claims, specifically? Did Kabar? Did, too, all the other knife companies that the author states he plans on testing in like manner in the future? I have never owned a Strider knife and have no unrealistic expectations of their products given the materials they utilize--nor am I particularly fond of the rather severely cultish aura many of their die-hard fans seem to have about them. All that said, my point about the intent of the use still stands--if he's intending to break the knife then its breaking is not failure, so I'm not understanding how a warranty applies to it. May seem like splitting hairs, but no more--I think--than Jerry Busse's deliniation of the applicability of his replacement guarantee based upon whether your knife found itself in the way of a metal cutting torch in actual use, or if you just decided to cut it in half for the hell of it. True, such deliniation would largely be based on the word of the consumer in question, but still there's the implication that the warranty makes sense in one case and not in the other.
Make no mistake, I believe everyone has the right to do whatever they wish to do with their own property. At the same time, I can readily recall the words of a Smith and Wesson rep at the Dallas Shot Show a couple years back who told my friend that most gunmakers (though not Smith and Wesson, yet) are moving away from offering any kind of long term guarantee on their products because, "there are people who'll break shit just to make you replace it." Now whether or not you or I think that's a valid reason to stop standing behind their products like they used to is somewhat moot, isn't it? They're just not willing to do it.
Now c'mon, Cliff--one of the things I've always admired about you is your capacity to remain dispassionate in the midst of dispute, and here you are pulling a pot/kettle accusation of blackness. If the prior six pages of heated debate did not discourage noss4 than I can hardly think my absent-of-explative-or-direct-insult post did. You have always encouraged criticism of your own testing, and I doubt (from what I've seen of his responses on this thread) that this tester is too much of a wilting flower to handle the same. None the less, if it'll make you feel better--
noss4, I applaud your willingness to find out for yourself what many take for granted and not bow your will to communal pressure or opinion. I think your testing would benefit from some careful examination of methods--not saying necessarily that any particular type of stress applied should be changed, but that the means by which it is applied should be made as consistent as possible, within (obviously) the time and budget constraints you are willing to work. It's true that actual knife use is quite varied in the types of stresses that will be encountered, but it's also true that the larger this variation, the smaller amount of reliable data can be pulled from examining the results. Some setup that would allow you to drop a weight from a consistent height and guide its point of impact with more precision would probably tell you more in the long run than the sledgehammer will--though admittedly being less fun.
Whatever you do, though, the thing I agree with many of the other posters on is that you should start wearing gloves, some kind of heavy long sleeves, and eye protection (if you're not already)--especially as you move into the stainless steels at higher hardnesses. There WILL be pieces flying.
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MOVING IN A NEW DIRRECTION
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Iv got a new idea for Noss.
Instead of doing all this BS with a vice, why dont you get out of the garage and test the Strider with a real test?
Go chop down a 6" hickory sappling, and then batton it in half.
Go slash some copper sheeting, and chop on some 1/4" thick Aluminum.
Smash a few cinder blocks with the pommel
Then go dig a hole big enough to plant a new sappling to replace the one chopped down earlier.
THAT is a wicked hard test of all of the knives ability, but its not reckless intentional abuse.
Think up REAL WORLD situations the knife may be used for, and then engeneer a similar test to the extreeme; dont just crank on stuff in a vice. That doesnt prove anything.
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Iv got a new idea for Noss.
Instead of doing all this BS with a vice, why dont you get out of the garage and test the Strider with a real test?
Go chop down a 6" hickory sappling, and then batton it in half.
Go slash some copper sheeting, and chop on some 1/4" thick Aluminum.
Smash a few cinder blocks with the pommel
Then go dig a hole big enough to plant a new sappling to replace the one chopped down earlier.
THAT is a wicked hard test of all of the knives ability, but its not reckless intentional abuse.
Think up REAL WORLD situations the knife may be used for, and then engeneer a similar test to the extreeme; dont just crank on stuff in a vice. That doesnt prove anything.
Cliff Stamp
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I have made knives yes, prototypes out of mild steel to benchmark low end performance and illustrate geometry vs steel as well as a small utility knives from HSS. The new year I will be doing some grinding, and the heat treating will be outsourced because I will be exploring some radical steels which require particular heat treatment equipment, such as bainite-L6, maxamet, etc. . None of these are for sale, they are just for evaluation purposes for myself and others to explore performance, and yes all of them will be eventually broken.
That is why it is part of the ABS MASTER smith testing and that is why STRIDER used those exact same methods to promote their knives.
It wasn't, I was speaking of the other posts, sorry if that wasn't obvious.
Cold Steel has done extreme tests which are not in general directly uses but more visual showcases, however others have not. This however would still not preclude such an examination, all information is of use, if not to you then that doesn't mean it should not be done. My primary interest tends to be physics and related fields but I would never suggest that all other scientific research stop, that is absurd. So if you are not interested in heavy lock testing, prying, impacting, etc., which many are not, then don't read it, just like I don't read a lot of biology journals.
Essentially you are asking for a clearification of expected performance. Saying that vicing a knife is abusive is quite frankly absurd. All knives will flex to some extent, the point is where they will break. Of course what I would do is give a description of my activities BEFORE I did them to the maker/manufacturer and ask for a description of expected performance. If they described abilities that were too low then there is no need obviously to do an evaluation.
METHODS not the person and it has to be uniform, thus you can't critize the individual for being unfair/unrealistic etc., when the company did the exact same thing in promotion. But again, I was speaking more of the other posts and not yours which was a level exploration.
-Cliff
jdm61
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The bending portion of the ABS tests are designed to make sure that the smith is able to fully control the thermal cycling process. Nothing more. If you want to get into a good discussion.....or argument over whether leaving a knife with a spine that soft is a good thing, drop a note to Kevin Cashen. Also. go look at his web site and you will see someone who does serious SCIENTIFIC testing.
Cliff Stamp
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It isn't the thermal cycling that is important to the bend test, it is ironic that you mention that and then use Cashen's name because he has stated that is actually largely irrelevant to the final performance. The bend test mainly examines the ability to do a differential hardening which is actually independent of forging. My point was that it obviously proves something. Now if you want to extend this to what it can prove then that follows once you accept that it does prove something, but first you have to admit that the proposition that it is meaningless is absurd. What should be obvious is that it also measures strength and ductility which are readily functional and valuable properties of steels.
Except of course when the makers do it. You do realize that actual impact testing just consists of hitting a piece of metal with a sledge hammer and measuring the energy absorbed and that is one of the fundamental materials properties of steels. If you don't think it is relevant then use a piece of steel in the untempered condition.
-Cliff
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I enjoy testing knives and reporting my findings. I have a few reviews etc. on bladeforums. I can't say I've ever had the desire to beat the living piss out of a knife just because. I can see abusing a knife. prying with it. why? what if it is the only tool you have, and your life is at stake? chopping with it, same thing. will I buy a 400 dollar knife to do this with? no. would I like to see an extreme test with a strider knife. sure. would it prompt me to consider buying one? definately. noss' "testing" is a little extreme, and sledgehammering a knife tells you nothing but whether a sledgehammer will smash a knife IMO, but hey, if he's got the money to spend on a knife to destroy, it's his money and more power to him.
Cliff Stamp
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The only real those knives have the grinds they do is because they are not actual cutting instruments. They are in fact specifically intended for prying, chopping, digging etc.. If you just want to cut with a knife then it looks completely different because if the knife isn't meant to take heavily lateral strain nor impacts then it has a completely different design.
-Cliff
jdm61
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ummmmm........since when was the hardening process not part of thermal cycling. The object of the test is ACTUALLY to see if you were able to anneal the blade soft enough and then harden the edge. As for Mr. Cashen's opinion, that is the reason i said "discussion or argument". You implied that the ABS bending test was a test devised to determine if you had forged the "ultimate" performance knife and my point was that there is some disagreement even within the ABS as to whether that particular type of hardening is in fact the best way. Kevin and Ed Fowler just happen to be the most vocal proponents on each side of the argument. Kevin actually does real live scientific testing. By comparison, Noss4's "testing" strikes me as being more like a petulant child saying "you're not the boss of me!!!!" It's his money so he can do whatever he wants.....just don't expect us to take his testing seriously.
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I understand that. Its just my opinion that testing of the knives lateral strength should be done with pseudo-real world situations such as the digging and chopping you mentioned.
Meybee see how it works as a climbing aid? Once on a hunting trip i slid down into a muddy ravine. The walls were muddy, made from a clayish' soil, and very steep with nothing but a few untrustworthy roots for hand holds. I suppose i could have walked out of it eventualy, but this area has many interlocking ravines and i didnt want to risk getting lost (I am but a wilderness NOOB). Luckily i had my 8" Tanto point Ka-Bar; using it as pick i was able to climb back out without too much effort. Needless to say it suffered a few scratches to its finish, but was otherwise none the worse for whare.
I would love to see people post test like that, instead of the usual slicing cardboard and push cutting string. Those things are great, but beginers like me have a hard time translating that stuff into the real world.
Cliff Stamp
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By defination, unless you are going to forge and then harden it several times in succession.
No, what I implied was that it obviously proved something because it was part of the ABS test, no where did I state in that post what it actually proved. I have stated clearly in the past my perspective on the ABS bend tests and they do not give the implication you misconstrued that I made in the above.
I have stated clearly that that ABS type tests are significantly problematic because they don't measure the force involved and specifically the yield point can be so low on blades with annealed spines that it makes ductility useless because there is no strength. Even that however doesn't mean the test is useless because as I noted, it does measure something.
Personally, I would not place much validity on sledehammer impacts for reasons I noted in the above, however I would not then use this to go on a rant against someone who chose to do it. I would instead pick out the parts that were of use to me, comment on them, encourage the user to continue and make some suggestions on improvements.
-Cliff
dude, if you are going to just break it by in no way using it as a knife, they would look on it equally as stupid as ifyou were to mess it up with a cutting torch. pluss, how would how much it takes to snap it in a vise help you?
If you want to know how strong it is as well as make your claim more honorable, just test it. if youve always wanted to know what would happen if you tried to cut down a tree, or clean several animals without sharpening in between, or if you were any good at trowing knives, take the chance to try it. or its just a waast of money
If you want to know how strong it is as well as make your claim more honorable, just test it. if youve always wanted to know what would happen if you tried to cut down a tree, or clean several animals without sharpening in between, or if you were any good at trowing knives, take the chance to try it. or its just a waast of money
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So like where is the test? i may disagree with how you are doing it, but id like to see it just the same. lol.
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The only issue I have with this is that noss is going to break this knife. Meaning there is no possibility that he will wear out before it does, he won't be contacting Strider for a replacement, there won't be more THE KNIFE WORLD WILL BE WATCHING posts. His other tests were to destruction, you can tell by the text and videos. He continues to hammer and bend until failure. He doesn't have a set point of performance where he calls the knife good, sticks it back in the sheath, and puts it away. His test is tip strength, cutting with the edge and hitting of the spine for batoning. Ultimately, he breaks the knife. This is fine, we get to see the limit. After edge failure, we get to see more extreme stuff like sledgehammers and presses. But, he is suggesting that somehow the knife may survive, that testing Strider's warranty is only a possibility and not a direct goal of his work.
I like the videos, and it goes a long way to showing what the cheap knives can do. To compare them to a high dollar seems like a good idea. We'll also see carbon steels versus stainless in motion, and just what the difference is there. This is another reason I can say with a good bit of certainty that the Strider will break. Doesn't bother me at all that he will break a Strider, just don't say that you 'might not'.
I like the videos, and it goes a long way to showing what the cheap knives can do. To compare them to a high dollar seems like a good idea. We'll also see carbon steels versus stainless in motion, and just what the difference is there. This is another reason I can say with a good bit of certainty that the Strider will break. Doesn't bother me at all that he will break a Strider, just don't say that you 'might not'.
jdm61
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i will argue that this is not a real world test. Striders are supposedly hard -use combat knives. So what Noss4 needs to do is cut some stuff like ammo case straps and harness materiel , whack it a couple of times and then run out and go toe-to-toe with some whacked out Yemeni Al Quaedidiot wielding his grandpa's jambiya. Now THAT is a real world test
I think some folks in here have watched one too many episodes of "Mythbusters"
I think some folks in here have watched one too many episodes of "Mythbusters"
jdm61
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sometimes cheap knives are just cheap POS knives. Other times, like with this Cold Steel peice, there just isn't a lot of labor involved in amking it, but it is made of good raw materials. I'm not sure about the Striders. Looks to me like they can be blanked out with a cutter of some kind, ground, heat treated and sprayed. The para-cord handle isn't very labor intensive either. Gotta wonder ow much of the cost is just for the name? I know that happens in the full-boat custom world too.
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