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I have decided to Test a $350 Plus STRIDER
- Thread starter noss4
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jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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Noss4....you say that you would be "proud to carry a Strider on your hip?" As you seem to have the kind of disposable income that permits you to destroy $350 knives, I suspect that you are not in a line of work where you would carry a Strider on the job. So what exactly would you be doing with a hideously ugly tactical knife "on your hip" anyway? Are you, perchance, what the guys from the Pirates Cove would call a "mall ninja?" Your "testing" would seem to indicate that. From your video and commentary, it appears that you at least have the shop gear of a knifemaker. Are you atttempting to discredit these production knife companies in order to sell your own blades? Any videos of YOUR stuff being tested to destruction?
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2005
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- 67
Noss4
You have what we call a "serious mental deficiency resulting in extreme paranoid behavior".
In other words and in another language, "malaki ang topak mo sa ulo".
If you have any friends, real or otherwise, let them translate that for you, "GAGO!!!!!!"
You have what we call a "serious mental deficiency resulting in extreme paranoid behavior".
In other words and in another language, "malaki ang topak mo sa ulo".
If you have any friends, real or otherwise, let them translate that for you, "GAGO!!!!!!"
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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- Dec 23, 1998
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- 17,716
All, I can say is someone's gotta do it. There are so many people that buy knives just to put them away in a drawer or in a safe and never see what they are really made of. I have done this myself. I have knives that never see the light of day and it is a shame. I have gotten rid of many of those as I felt that they would be better suited to someone who would work them. I do eventually get around to using most of my knives unless I have too many multiples of one type, in which case I will use a couple and that is that.
I have broken knives in hard use in real world hard use, that is. So destructive testing only shows how far it goes before breaking. I think everyone agrees that there is no indestructible knife. It's the point at which it fails that is interesting to note. Was it overuse, over abuse, or minimal use and miimal abuse. If the latter is the case, then the knife fails as a whole. If the former is true then the knife has passed even if it broke.
I remember when Cliff broke the Busse Basic 7. It broke after 2 years of extreme abuse. Hell it didn't even look like a basic anymore, it looked like a filet knife, because he had ground and reground and sanded and did all kinds of nutty stuff to it. No one comlained because the fact it lasted that long was admireable. It passed.
More recently a Swamp Rat M6 broke with just a "WIGGLE" Well come to find out the real truth of the matter was that the guy that just wiggled it and broke it, had pounded on it with a pipe wrench to baton through stuff for 8 hours an then wiggled and broke it. 8 hours with a pipe wrench. Well that knife passed with flying colors in my book.
I saw noss4's video of Kabar and I would have no problem with carrying a Kabar that performed as well. It passed the test even though it broke.
Now for Devils-Advocate to Noss:
I do not believe it is necessary to slap strider in the face when they are trying to do the right thing by you. They know you will break their knife. So they ofer you a freebie to break. This is basically their warranty and they are "PRE-HONORING" it in my opinion, so you should not take it as some sort of underhanded deal, because you make yourself look like an ass who is out to just make them look bad.
It's not like your test will change peoples minds one way or the other. Hard core fans will not believe just 1 or 2 tests. It takes consistent and considerable reporting of the same before you change peoples minds.
I have broken knives in hard use in real world hard use, that is. So destructive testing only shows how far it goes before breaking. I think everyone agrees that there is no indestructible knife. It's the point at which it fails that is interesting to note. Was it overuse, over abuse, or minimal use and miimal abuse. If the latter is the case, then the knife fails as a whole. If the former is true then the knife has passed even if it broke.
I remember when Cliff broke the Busse Basic 7. It broke after 2 years of extreme abuse. Hell it didn't even look like a basic anymore, it looked like a filet knife, because he had ground and reground and sanded and did all kinds of nutty stuff to it. No one comlained because the fact it lasted that long was admireable. It passed.
More recently a Swamp Rat M6 broke with just a "WIGGLE" Well come to find out the real truth of the matter was that the guy that just wiggled it and broke it, had pounded on it with a pipe wrench to baton through stuff for 8 hours an then wiggled and broke it. 8 hours with a pipe wrench. Well that knife passed with flying colors in my book.
I saw noss4's video of Kabar and I would have no problem with carrying a Kabar that performed as well. It passed the test even though it broke.
Now for Devils-Advocate to Noss:
I do not believe it is necessary to slap strider in the face when they are trying to do the right thing by you. They know you will break their knife. So they ofer you a freebie to break. This is basically their warranty and they are "PRE-HONORING" it in my opinion, so you should not take it as some sort of underhanded deal, because you make yourself look like an ass who is out to just make them look bad.
It's not like your test will change peoples minds one way or the other. Hard core fans will not believe just 1 or 2 tests. It takes consistent and considerable reporting of the same before you change peoples minds.
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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- Dec 23, 1998
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- 17,716
why not?!?!? and maybe if you read th rest of my paragraph you'd see the reason, but maybe you did and the reason is not enough for you.
do you like not knowing what your equipment can do?!?!?!?!?!?
is someones word enough?!?!?!?
"trust me, I have this stealth material that will hide your plane from radar, no need to test it?!?!"
Frankly, the mentality that there is no need to test is scary goes against the design, engineering and construction of almost every mechanical device made. Imagine if we didn't test clocks against the atomic clock to make sure that they do not deviate by a large margin. Imagine if there was no atomic clock by which to test against? Why we would have had this conversation months ago, or possibly in the comming cold summer:jerkit:
testing ensures that a manufacturer will continue to maintain a high level of quality. If there is no testing, what is the onus for the mfg to even make a quality product if the rest of you are just storing the product to stare at and admire and fantasize about? The knives that I use, I have myself tested to what I feel is necessary.
I have broken very popular hard use knives with hardly any pressure. I have sent them back and had them replaced and did it again. Round two was enough and I did not buy anymore. The use I gave them was no more than I give my favorite hard use knife which I have owned for nearly 10 years. If they cannot take even a weeks worth of that use, they are worthless to me.
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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- Dec 23, 1998
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I use to own HI Khkuri's and still do. I use to use my 15 inch and 18 nch AK's to chop chords of wood, along with my SHBM. I could chop a chord of wood with little to no edge degradation on any of these knives.
Then along came another Khukuri seller, who was selling Khukuris that looked exactly like HI's. I bought two. One was an exact duplicate of my 15 inch HI, you could almost not tell the difference in looks feel and dimensions. The price was nearly half of what I paid for my AK. I went out and started chopping away at a cord of wood. Well I got about 1/3 of the way through and the blade looked serrated. I gave the knife away. I tested the second one with the same results. I told the maker and he was willing to send me a replacement, but we never hooked up and I gave that one away. This is just one of many examles of why testng is good.
But again, no need to slap a maker n the face when he offers a gesture of kindness by giving you a test blade.
Then along came another Khukuri seller, who was selling Khukuris that looked exactly like HI's. I bought two. One was an exact duplicate of my 15 inch HI, you could almost not tell the difference in looks feel and dimensions. The price was nearly half of what I paid for my AK. I went out and started chopping away at a cord of wood. Well I got about 1/3 of the way through and the blade looked serrated. I gave the knife away. I tested the second one with the same results. I told the maker and he was willing to send me a replacement, but we never hooked up and I gave that one away. This is just one of many examles of why testng is good.
But again, no need to slap a maker n the face when he offers a gesture of kindness by giving you a test blade.
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noss4,
Good luck with the test! I'm looking forward to the results.
Good luck with the test! I'm looking forward to the results.
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- Jan 10, 2005
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Yeah! That's what I'm talking about, Brother! I've heard you can pound these with a hammer all day!!
You are right to fear the China/HF/Walmart triad. I heard they are ruthless with protecting their steel & heat treating secrets. Good luck and if you need a safe house let me know.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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- Aug 12, 2005
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Hi....my name is Bubba......I done heard you boys at the Skunk Works have got this here airio-plane thats invisible.......mind if I hit it with a hammer a few times and then check it with my Fuzzbuster? nuff said about your argumentswhy not?!?!? and maybe if you read th rest of my paragraph you'd see the reason, but maybe you did and the reason is not enough for you.
do you like not knowing what your equipment can do?!?!?!?!?!?
is someones word enough?!?!?!?
"trust me, I have this stealth material that will hide your plane from radar, no need to test it?!?!"
Frankly, the mentality that there is no need to test is scary goes against the design, engineering and construction of almost every mechanical device made. Imagine if we didn't test clocks against the atomic clock to make sure that they do not deviate by a large margin. Imagine if there was no atomic clock by which to test against? Why we would have had this conversation months ago, or possibly in the comming cold summer:jerkit:
testing ensures that a manufacturer will continue to maintain a high level of quality. If there is no testing, what is the onus for the mfg to even make a quality product if the rest of you are just storing the product to stare at and admire and fantasize about? The knives that I use, I have myself tested to what I feel is necessary.
I have broken very popular hard use knives with hardly any pressure. I have sent them back and had them replaced and did it again. Round two was enough and I did not buy anymore. The use I gave them was no more than I give my favorite hard use knife which I have owned for nearly 10 years. If they cannot take even a weeks worth of that use, they are worthless to me.
:jerkit:
Cobalt
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 1998
- Messages
- 17,716
Cobalt
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 1998
- Messages
- 17,716
if you want to see testing, i have a picture posted somewhere on this thread, my clever friend
LOL, and you accuse Noss of abuse? I understand where your comming from, but you cannot compare yourself to an outfit that produces countless more numbers of every model they offer. With a custom maker makes, it is not so much an issue as special care is taken with each. Even then there is a chance of mistake. But in high production there is a higher chance of slip ups, just the law of large numbers is in effect. Outside testing by independent testers is not a bad thing.
t1mpani
Platinum Member
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- Jun 6, 2002
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- 5,515
Personally, I'm seeing good points being made on both sides, intermixed with a large degree of immaturity. However, I've been guilty of that myself from time to time.
On the tester's side:
I do think there are far too many who take whatever a knife manufacturer has to say about the performance of his wares as gospel, never taking into account that the fact that they are selling something we really like does not change the fact that they are salesmen whose income depends upon their ability to convince people to buy from them. There are others who believe that anything harder than filleting a fish or slicing a tomato is "abuse" and balk at the notion that a 1/4" thick fixed blade would/should be used in a different manner than one would use a pen knife. I think a great deal of useful information can be gleaned from comparing different products with each other and against the claims that their creators make about them.
On the other hand:
Entertaining as it has been in a "Wow, look at that" kind of way, some of the tests being performed here seem so far out of context to any kind of actual use for these tools that I question (you'll note I don't say flat-out condemn) their validity. Chopping through tough media to test durability of the edge I'll go with. Sledgehammering the side of the knife as it lays flat on a smooth surface...I'm trying my best to come up with something that approximates in the worst kind of Murphy's Law scenario, and am having trouble doing so. True, you can say that damage is damage, but at what point do we leave behind anything instructive and enter the realm of silly? I mean, I'll buy you a 1/4" bar of welding steel from Lowe's, grind a 40 degree edge on it with my sander, and it'll still be knocking through bricks and laughing off sledgehammer blows long after you've gone through your next 40 factory or custom knives; but does that make it a better knife than they are? I suppose the thing that I'm hoping people watching this realize is that these are very narrow tests in what information they yield--I'd very much like to see follow-on comparisons with the same knives doing more normal tasks, or even very difficult ones that tested the other attributes that a good knife should possess. The statement that, "If the knife outlasts me then I'll be proud to carry it on my hip" again makes me think a mild steel bar with a 40 degree edge bevel would fulfill your requirements better than anything else you'll ever find. Now, I doubt your criteria is quite as simple as that, but at times it certainly comes across that way.
The other problem with this--for both the tester and the viewer--lay in the inconsistency of the manner the tests are being conducted. The mass of the sledgehammer sounds impressive, but you can tell from the videos how inconsistent the placement of the hits is. If one knife survives ten glancing blows and then another breaks from being hit once when the point of impact just happened to be at its geometrically weakest point--does it follow that the first knife is "tougher"? Applying the same test to several identical knives would--I guarantee you--supply you with vastly differing results. Some tiny fraction of those differences would come from inconsistencies in geometry/heat treatment/etc, and the vast majority would arise from human error in the form of "when I was testing the fourth Bushman, I had a blister on my thumb" or "On this morning, I had an extra bowl of Wheaties, which made me feel very vigorous and healthy but had the downside of making me stand with my legs very close together because all that fiber was really doing a number on me..."
Back on the tester's side:
I think the analogies with crash tests and passenger cars in off-road situations are very valid points. Above there was the comment that these seemed valid tests for cars, but that he couldn't remember the last time he'd had to use his knife in such an extreme way. I see his point, but have to ask--when is the last time you drove your minivan off-road? In both cases, these are looks into what COULD happen versus what is likely to. I believe it to be a reasonable thing to question in knives that claim superiority to other knives in an emergency life-or-death situation, just like I expect a car company that goes on and on and on about the superior safety of its vehicles to actually score higher in safety ratings when put to the test.
Back on the other hand:
This is back to the use or abuse question. Let me distance myself from knives for a minute just to gain some perspective. If I buy a weed eater that has a lifetime warranty and claims to be superior to any weed eater on the market, then drop it into a tub of sulphuric acid, and then call up the maker about honoring the warranty, I would hope that he would giggle uncontrollably for a few seconds and then hang up. Replacing my weed eater for no other reason than because I decided to melt it would not be standing behind their product--it would be promoting my thinking that if I only want to pay for one tool, I can use my weed eater to split firewood, loosen rusted joints and make pasta and always have it replaced when it fails. In essence, I'd be saying that it is the manufacturer's responsibility to absolve ME of all responsibility. Now, on the other hand, if the same weed eater were to come apart/overheat/whatever after having to go through a particularly dense cluster of undergrowth, I'd expect customer service to do something for me.
So, putting analogies aside--I think testing a knife to failure has validity. I think testing outside of normal use from a "what if?" standpoint has validity--provided the testing reflects traits useful to what the test subject might someday be called upon to do (again, hard surface impacts to test edge strength=good. Testing a weed eater by hammering tent stakes into the ground=bad.). I don't think holding a manufacturer to a warranty against failure is valid in this case, since the intention was to make the item fail in the first place---especially when we're distorting the meaning of "fail" like we are here. What do I mean by this? Well, if the knife breaks while you're trying to use it to make kindling for a fire, then it failed, because you objective of making kindling was not reached. If a knife breaks while you're trying to break it, then it didn't fail--because your objective of breaking the knife was reached. As such, I don't think any claim upon the warranty is legitimate; any more than I would expect my insurance company to pay for damage to my car under my "road hazard" coverage after I had intentionally entered it in a demolition derby.
On the tester's side:
I do think there are far too many who take whatever a knife manufacturer has to say about the performance of his wares as gospel, never taking into account that the fact that they are selling something we really like does not change the fact that they are salesmen whose income depends upon their ability to convince people to buy from them. There are others who believe that anything harder than filleting a fish or slicing a tomato is "abuse" and balk at the notion that a 1/4" thick fixed blade would/should be used in a different manner than one would use a pen knife. I think a great deal of useful information can be gleaned from comparing different products with each other and against the claims that their creators make about them.
On the other hand:
Entertaining as it has been in a "Wow, look at that" kind of way, some of the tests being performed here seem so far out of context to any kind of actual use for these tools that I question (you'll note I don't say flat-out condemn) their validity. Chopping through tough media to test durability of the edge I'll go with. Sledgehammering the side of the knife as it lays flat on a smooth surface...I'm trying my best to come up with something that approximates in the worst kind of Murphy's Law scenario, and am having trouble doing so. True, you can say that damage is damage, but at what point do we leave behind anything instructive and enter the realm of silly? I mean, I'll buy you a 1/4" bar of welding steel from Lowe's, grind a 40 degree edge on it with my sander, and it'll still be knocking through bricks and laughing off sledgehammer blows long after you've gone through your next 40 factory or custom knives; but does that make it a better knife than they are? I suppose the thing that I'm hoping people watching this realize is that these are very narrow tests in what information they yield--I'd very much like to see follow-on comparisons with the same knives doing more normal tasks, or even very difficult ones that tested the other attributes that a good knife should possess. The statement that, "If the knife outlasts me then I'll be proud to carry it on my hip" again makes me think a mild steel bar with a 40 degree edge bevel would fulfill your requirements better than anything else you'll ever find. Now, I doubt your criteria is quite as simple as that, but at times it certainly comes across that way.
The other problem with this--for both the tester and the viewer--lay in the inconsistency of the manner the tests are being conducted. The mass of the sledgehammer sounds impressive, but you can tell from the videos how inconsistent the placement of the hits is. If one knife survives ten glancing blows and then another breaks from being hit once when the point of impact just happened to be at its geometrically weakest point--does it follow that the first knife is "tougher"? Applying the same test to several identical knives would--I guarantee you--supply you with vastly differing results. Some tiny fraction of those differences would come from inconsistencies in geometry/heat treatment/etc, and the vast majority would arise from human error in the form of "when I was testing the fourth Bushman, I had a blister on my thumb" or "On this morning, I had an extra bowl of Wheaties, which made me feel very vigorous and healthy but had the downside of making me stand with my legs very close together because all that fiber was really doing a number on me..."
Back on the tester's side:
I think the analogies with crash tests and passenger cars in off-road situations are very valid points. Above there was the comment that these seemed valid tests for cars, but that he couldn't remember the last time he'd had to use his knife in such an extreme way. I see his point, but have to ask--when is the last time you drove your minivan off-road? In both cases, these are looks into what COULD happen versus what is likely to. I believe it to be a reasonable thing to question in knives that claim superiority to other knives in an emergency life-or-death situation, just like I expect a car company that goes on and on and on about the superior safety of its vehicles to actually score higher in safety ratings when put to the test.
Back on the other hand:
This is back to the use or abuse question. Let me distance myself from knives for a minute just to gain some perspective. If I buy a weed eater that has a lifetime warranty and claims to be superior to any weed eater on the market, then drop it into a tub of sulphuric acid, and then call up the maker about honoring the warranty, I would hope that he would giggle uncontrollably for a few seconds and then hang up. Replacing my weed eater for no other reason than because I decided to melt it would not be standing behind their product--it would be promoting my thinking that if I only want to pay for one tool, I can use my weed eater to split firewood, loosen rusted joints and make pasta and always have it replaced when it fails. In essence, I'd be saying that it is the manufacturer's responsibility to absolve ME of all responsibility. Now, on the other hand, if the same weed eater were to come apart/overheat/whatever after having to go through a particularly dense cluster of undergrowth, I'd expect customer service to do something for me.
So, putting analogies aside--I think testing a knife to failure has validity. I think testing outside of normal use from a "what if?" standpoint has validity--provided the testing reflects traits useful to what the test subject might someday be called upon to do (again, hard surface impacts to test edge strength=good. Testing a weed eater by hammering tent stakes into the ground=bad.). I don't think holding a manufacturer to a warranty against failure is valid in this case, since the intention was to make the item fail in the first place---especially when we're distorting the meaning of "fail" like we are here. What do I mean by this? Well, if the knife breaks while you're trying to use it to make kindling for a fire, then it failed, because you objective of making kindling was not reached. If a knife breaks while you're trying to break it, then it didn't fail--because your objective of breaking the knife was reached. As such, I don't think any claim upon the warranty is legitimate; any more than I would expect my insurance company to pay for damage to my car under my "road hazard" coverage after I had intentionally entered it in a demolition derby.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2005
- Messages
- 47,357
LOL, and you accuse Noss of abuse? I understand where your comming from, but you cannot compare yourself to an outfit that produces countless more numbers of every model they offer. With a custom maker makes, it is not so much an issue as special care is taken with each. Even then there is a chance of mistake. But in high production there is a higher chance of slip ups, just the law of large numbers is in effect. Outside testing by independent testers is not a bad thing.
that one was a throwaway. screwed up plunge grind. i bent it for fun. If you don't trust the people making your knives, why would you give them $350 to begin with? Do you have any idea the variety of handmade knives you can get for that price? I plan to ask $150 for a tactical knife the size of the average Strider. I bet that you could get a basic forged micarta handled knife from someone like Bret Gatlin or J. Neilson for not a whole lot more than $350 if that. Hell, you can still get basic hunters from master smiths for under $400. And those knives you can trust. and by the way.......if i chose to do so, that knife could be straightened back out again....yes, it annealed that soft....lol.
Cobalt
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Dec 23, 1998
- Messages
- 17,716
I can't argue that point with you and I agree, but that still doesn't take away from what is being tested here is a production knife that is in that high price range. I am not sure I would trust it so easily as I would a custom from a maker I trust.
I have purchased customs in that price range that I would trust wholeheartedly, like my Lightfoot predator and my Carson U2, to name two tacticals that come to mind.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
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- 17,562
No, this is why you need to be able to bound results, which is difficult for complete fault testing because you only get to do it once, impact is really bad in that regard as it also has to be highly random (as it is in real life). What will happen is that you will eventually bound it by other knives of similar steels and thus bound the class of materials. Of course if you can afford mutiple samples then do so and get the bounds much faster.
However, quite frankly I am completely disgusted by heavy criticism of relatively novice posters because their tests are not ideal and it shows a complete lack of understanding of even basic experimentalism. I can never recall ever seeing a student's first experiment being completely valid, they always miss points, that is why they are students. However is the correct responce to this a rant about how flawed the experiment was - that is obviously not going to encourage them to continue.
The forums should be 100% focused on encouraging performance evaluation - especially by users. At the very worst the conclusions are not supported by the data so you make this distinction and then offer suggestions on how to solve this problem. You ENCOURAGE further critical posting always. But this isn't what happens here, Bladeforums has become far too defensive and what is 100% telling is where is all of this when Strider was doing sledgehammer hits on their knives because that is exactly how they promoted them.
Did they mention in the promotion that it was supposed to resist corrosion of that type - if not then that analogy isn't appropriate. That is the exact problem people are constantly missing in this thread - Strider did all of that and more.
-Cliff
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COBALT, I really dont mind him bashing his knives. In fact Bash away, I mean if he would just perform the tests and do it quietly I dont think I would have any problems. I know where jdm61 is coming from and I think part of it for him (correct me if I am wrong) as with for me is how he's pounding his chest about this test. He's been announcing it and announcing it, and beating his chest.
Like Cobalt, I have more confidence now in the ka-bar and especially that tuff lil bushman now that I have seen those vids. I was a little shocked at how far Noss4 took the tests but it is interesting to see how far those knives went. I am sure Noss4 will break the strider and its his knife so go ahead, but I dont think he should get a replacement breaking it with the tests he does. My opinion.
Like Cobalt, I have more confidence now in the ka-bar and especially that tuff lil bushman now that I have seen those vids. I was a little shocked at how far Noss4 took the tests but it is interesting to see how far those knives went. I am sure Noss4 will break the strider and its his knife so go ahead, but I dont think he should get a replacement breaking it with the tests he does. My opinion.
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