I stand almost alone there are few who I would welcome to walk by my side.

[Cliff Stamp]

2. Overt bashing other makers.

Yes he did this, lots of people do, most do it behind thier backs in email and on the phone where they don't see it and can not respond. Here what he said was public, on the record and could be refuted by any maker who was willing to make public statements of that regard.

My point that was not grasped is that these folks who are saying his rights were taken away are not considering the fact it would not have been fair to the makers who abide by the rules here.

This isn't the point, it is the double standard, he is being overtly bashed now without the members being banned. As for threats of violence, he claimed a martial arts background, it was harshly critized and he responded that if you showed up he would show you how real he was. This isn't uncommon behavior either.

I have no doubt I could exchange emails with him and discuss the performance of his knives, or his background without being attacked or threatened. Yes, his behavior was against the rules and yes he deserved to get banned for the commercial selling alone. However if the rules were enforced equally the bannings would have fell on more than him.

The main problem which started this thread wasn't his banning but the fact that is is continually bashed when is banned on a widespread *public* forum.

-Cliff

 

[howiesatwork]

This is now a "public" forum, Cliff?
Tell Spark he doesn't own his forum, then...

 

[Cougar Allen]

This isn't the point, it is the double standard, he is being overtly bashed now without the members being banned. As for threats of violence, he claimed a martial arts background, it was harshly critized and he responded that if you showed up he would show you how real he was. This isn't uncommon behavior either.

The events in question seem to have dimmed in your memory. It's all still here to be re-read....

We must have several hundred members who are martial artists, and somehow we all manage to participate in the discussion without threatening anyone with violence. That is the common behavior.

I have no doubt I could exchange emails with him and discuss the performance of his knives, or his background without being attacked or threatened.

Why don't you do that.

Yes, his behavior was against the rules and yes he deserved to get banned for the commercial selling alone. However if the rules were enforced equally the bannings would have fell on more than him.

Show me a member who has continued to break the rules as badly as he did after as many warnings as he got. Then you can complain that the rules aren't enforced equally.

The main problem which started this thread wasn't his banning but the fact that is is continually bashed when is banned on a widespread *public* forum.

That's what happens when someone comes to a net forum and behaves so badly he eventually has to be banned. He places himself in a position of being unable to post on that forum. He can, of course, make his own website just to bash Bladeforums, and several of the trolls we've banned have done that, but Shiva Ki hasn't.

If he's not willing to follow the rules so he can post here, and he's not willing to post on his own website, what are we to do? Should we put together a website for him so he can bash us? Maybe we should write the flames and spam and threats for him, too?

 

[Bastid]

Cliff,

Originally Posted by Cliff Stamp
This isn't the point, it is the double standard, he is being overtly bashed now without the members being banned. As for threats of violence, he claimed a martial arts background, it was harshly critized and he responded that if you showed up he would show you how real he was.


Care so show me where he addressed that to me.
I think you are using the word "you" quite loosely in a paragraph that begins with your telling me what my point is.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

This isn't the point, it is the double standard, he is being overtly bashed now without the members being banned. As for threats of violence, he claimed a martial arts background, it was harshly critized and he responded that if you showed up he would show you how real he was. This isn't uncommon behavior either.

He is being bashed for things that he did on this forum. They are here for all to see. He did not show any proof to back up the bashing he did. If you are going to come here and insult and threaten people, you are opening yourself up to criticism. I am not going to apologise for what I think of his actions here, or for posting on threads to let people know what I think. If I get banned for those actions, then so-be-it. If in a year or five years someone posts asking about Shiva Ki, I will let them know that I think he makes excellent knives, and that I think he is a SOB. That is unless at some point he does something that changes my opinion of him.

In my opinon, if you are going to come here and act like an egotistical ass, and bash others to put yourself up on a pedestal so all can bow to you, any criticism you get is well deserved. You may think differently, Cliff, and that's fine.

 

[G.R. (gord) Begg]

This isn't the point, it is the double standard, he is being overtly bashed now without the members being banned. As for threats of violence, he claimed a martial arts background, it was harshly critized and he responded that if you showed up he would show you how real he was. This isn't uncommon behavior either.

I have no doubt I could exchange emails with him and discuss the performance of his knives, or his background without being attacked or threatened. Yes, his behavior was against the rules and yes he deserved to get banned for the commercial selling alone. However if the rules were enforced equally the bannings would have fell on more than him.

The main problem which started this thread wasn't his banning but the fact that is is continually bashed when is banned on a widespread *public* forum.

-Cliff

Indeed,you are correct, Mr. Stamp.
The thing that is very wrong with the 'Shiva Ki" discussion, is a man is being demeaned, and dis-credited while he is in 'exile' - with no opportunity to come here and defend himself directly.

There is a seemingly 'self-rightous' group here, who by their actions, indicate the rules of "double-standard" do not apply to themselves.

Thus far, they have , in essence, portrayed me as a low-life, undesirable character, and most probably, unacceptable as a member of this forum.

My "crime"?

..to defend on my own accord, a man who is being bullied, and unable to defend himself; to speak against obvious, and blatent 'injustice'.

.. what kind of a place IS this?

.. Thank-you for your apparent sense of "fair-play", Mr Stamp.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Indeed,you are correct, Mr. Stamp.
The thing that is very wrong with the 'Shiva Ki" discussion, is a man is being demeaned, and dis-credited while he is in 'exile' - with no opportunity to come here and defend himself directly.

There is a seemingly 'self-rightous' group here, who by their actions, indicate the rules of "double-standard" do not apply to themselves.

Thus far, they have , in essence, portrayed me as a low-life, undesirable character, and most probably, unacceptable as a member of this forum.

It has been stated over and over that if he is willing to follow the rules and to conduct himself properly that he is welcome to come back and defend himself. I think it would even be understood that things could get heated. As long as it doesn't go beyond the bounries of what is considered acceptable behavior for this forum. It is up to him if he wishes to do so, or just feels that it would be a waste of time. If he can show me where I have been wrong, I will not hesitate to apologise for what I have posted about him. For that matter, I would start a thread fully explaining the reasons for my apology where I would be happy to let all of Shiva Ki's supporters post some I told you sos.

As far as you being a low-life, undesirable character, you haven't shown that to me, and I certainly don't find you to be unacceptable as a member here.

 

[Mike G]

Indeed,you are correct, Mr. Stamp.
The thing that is very wrong with the 'Shiva Ki" discussion, is a man is being demeaned, and dis-credited while he is in 'exile' - with no opportunity to come here and defend himself directly.

There is a seemingly 'self-rightous' group here, who by their actions, indicate the rules of "double-standard" do not apply to themselves.

Thus far, they have , in essence, portrayed me as a low-life, undesirable character, and most probably, unacceptable as a member of this forum.

My "crime"?

..to defend on my own accord, a man who is being bullied, and unable to defend himself; to speak against obvious, and blatent 'injustice'.

.. what kind of a place IS this?

.. Thank-you for your apparent sense of "fair-play", Mr Stamp.

I'm beginning to think you cannot comprehend the written word.

As stated several times in this thread, as well as to Shiva Ki himself; he is welcome here, as long as he follows the rules. He can come back here, defend himself or add to the discussion as he desires. However, he MUST follow the rules here, and one of those rules is that he cannot sell his stuff without paying for the proper membership. He was banned for shilling his wares, after repeated warnings to cease. Cougar Allen has sent you links to Shiva Ki's threads so you can read for yourself. Apparently, you are having problems understanding and comprehending what we are writing here.

My suggestion for you is that you have a family member explain what we have written. Maybe then you'll 'get it.'

 

[Planterz]

Anyone else find it amusing that a Canadian is trying to argue what constitutes free speech on a private board in the USA?

 

[Bastid]

What gets me the most is that this fool bases his stance that Shiva can not defend himself.

Shiva can post here if he agrees to abide by the rules.

For some reason he can not seem to grasp the simple reality.

 

[G.R. (gord) Begg]

Anyone else find it amusing that a Canadian is trying to argue what constitutes free speech on a private board in the USA?

spoken like a true youth.. :yawn:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In my opinon, if you are going to come here and act like an egotistical ass, and bash others to put yourself up on a pedestal so all can bow to you, any criticism you get is well deserved. You may think differently, Cliff, and that's fine.

Someone has to be the best so I don't have a problem with anyone claiming it. That is reality, some knives are better than others some people can cut more rope than others. His knives either do what he claimed or they don't. So you ask exactly what he is saying and work from there.

Could I critize him, sure, I agree with a lot of what was said, I think many of the pictures are problematic, plastic guns for example, the whole "flesh eater" thing isn't good for the industry and some of the pictures just look silly like the bare chested forging.

However I just would not use this to attack the man publically on a forum which is supposed to be about knives and has rules against personal attacks. On the forums I would stick to discussion of his knives or maybe to extend to his customer service.

If for some reason I absolutely felt I had to go on a rant about how much of a nob someone was I would go to alt.flame or similar, though I can't recall ever actually doing that as I never felt the need or desire.

This is now a "public" forum, Cliff?

Meaning public in the sense of how it is viewed, such as a newspaper is public information though it isn't owned by the public.

We must have several hundred members who are martial artists, and somehow we all manage to participate in the discussion without threatening anyone with violence. That is the common behavior.

Discussion yes, start calling each other fakes publically and so forth in a really derogatory manner and see how long that discussion stays productive.

Show me a member who has continued to break the rules as badly as he did after as many warnings as he got. Then you can complain that the rules aren't enforced equally.

The selling rule is enforced pretty equally, and no one is arguing that he should not have been banned, however the "be nice" one varies widely this being an obvious one. Take the rants against Ki and apply them to a really popular member by a really unpopular member. Or have Ki come back and start returning the insults.

And do you really think any of that is productive on the main forums anyway? Bladeforums even has subforums for that, so people can just go to W&C and rant about Ki personally if they feel the need for everyone else to know how they feel about him for some reason.

If he's not willing to follow the rules so he can post here, and he's not willing to post on his own website, what are we to do? Should we put together a website for him so he can bash us? Maybe we should write the flames and spam and threats for him, too?

Maybe stick to discussion of his knives and not the individual. But as others have noted, some people would find this too boring.

-Cliff

 

[howiesatwork]

Cliff, this is the proper forum.
It is not the "main forums", but The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!
Where else should one post to discuss the merits or shortcomings of a knifemaker, seller, or buyer?
To discuss the knives, this isn't the right forum, but few have ever mentioned his knives were inferior.
No, we should not stick to the discussion of his knives, as that is not the issue.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

If all we did was discuss the merits of a makers knives then I guess we would have to forego discussing whether Allan Blade, Steve Corkum, Dale Reif, etc. are thieves, and just discuss their knives. We would not be able to discuss how a maker treated his customers and if he was good at communicating, because that has nothing to do with his knives.

For years people have commented about the personality of makers and the people that run the manufacturing companies. For example, Kevin McClung, Lynn Griffith, Mick Strider and Lynn Thompson. This is not likely to stop in the future.

 

[Geraldo]

Maybe stick to discussion of his knives and not the individual.

Cliff, we don't discuss anything but knives made by a great many makers. Why? Because they haved lied, cheated, or stolen. They do not misrepresent themselves and have a great deal of integrity. Those who find themselves the target of unflattering discussions tend to have created their own problems.

 

[cleaner145]

Maybe stick to discussion of his knives and not the individual. But as others have noted, some people would find this too boring.
-Cliff

Cliff - you know who would not find this "boring" all the newer members of this forum who would continue to be victimized by these same individuals that you defend regardless of how you try and spin it. You are entitled to your opinion but these new folks would have wished someone has spoken the truth over and over about their unsavory business practices and saved them the same grief. There are a lot of great makers on this forum deliver who what they promise on time and also follow the forum rules that we all agreed to, whether a paying member or otherwise.

These people are not victim's and are all where they are today thru their own negative actions towards others. The majority of the folks here are honest and abide by all the rules. These other types who can't seem to manage that make it more difficult and far less enjoyable for everone else.

 

[Planterz]

Maybe stick to discussion of his knives and not the individual. But as others have noted, some people would find this too boring.

A custom knife is not just some soulless chunk of steel. Quite a bit of the maker himself goes into the knife. And that's just the knife. When you buy a custom knife, you have to work with the maker. If the maker is an arrogant blowhard, he could make the best knife in the universe, and there'll be lots of people who won't bother dealing with that kind of personality. Apparently, the previous several dozen times this has been mentioned hasn't hammered this point into your skull, so I'm reiterating it.

If you have 2 custom knife makers, and one's a jerk while the other has integrity and shows respect towards other makers, the jerk will get his comeuppance.

If you have 1000's of custom knife makers all vying for their piece of the pie, a maker's integrity and character matter just as much as the knife itself. If a customer buys a custom knife and the maker was a pleasure to deal with, we'll all hear about it. The maker garners respect (and more customers). If the maker is brash, arrogant, and disrespectful of everybody but himself, you'll be damned sure we'll all hear about that too. Shiva Ki has most likely only hurt himself by his antics on bladeforums.

Your comment about being "boring" makes absolutely no sense. Having a custom knife made isn't like driving to Wal*Mart and picking up a knife. It's much more complicated and involved. Discussing the "individual" is every bit as important as just discussing the knife. It has nothing to do with being "boring" or exciting.