I **SUCK** at Sharpening! Dammit!

Bench rest gets used a lot for varmint popping.

Enough of the analogies, skills don't get passed because they aren't needed. Freehand is a PITA for a lot of people.
 
Skimo said:
Bench rest gets used a lot for varmint popping.

Enough of the analogies, skills don't get passed because they aren't needed. Freehand is a PITA for a lot of people.
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BINGO! You hit the nail on the head!:thumbup:

Progress happens when people push the envelope.

Today, folks, you can buy an "off the shelf" hunting rifle that's more accurate than the most expensive custom made rifles of the 1950s. Why?? Because of those "impractical" bench rest shooters. Today, we can buy a knife made from K390, or even CPM Rex 121. We're no longer limited to soft steel.

And Skimo, you're right. Today, most folks can't make their own furniture, or grow their own food. Why? Because there is no need for those skills today.
 
Skimo said:
Bench rest gets used a lot for varmint popping.

Enough of the analogies, skills don't get passed because they aren't needed. Freehand is a PITA for a lot of people.
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Are you implying freehand is no longer needed because of gadgets like the EdgePro?!
That's crazy talk, I almost spewed my coffee(made with a French press, not a Keurig). By that reasoning, there's no need to sharpen anything, a steady supply of (poorly) sharpened, brand new knives awaits one no further that the nearest supermarket.

Pretty sure, in my case anyway, it wan't passed on because my pops probably thought I made enough trips to the ER for stitches without a sharp knife at my disposal...
Plus, he was pretty worn out by my older siblings by the time I was grown.


And Skimo, you're right. Today, most folks can't make their own furniture, or grow their own food. Why? Because there is no need for those skills today.
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These skills are becoming important once again. Without becoming too political, a whole lot of folks would be a lot better off if they got some of their food from a home garden than the subsidized garbage they can afford at the market. How many of them would grow some of their own food if they knew how?

A whole lot of the furniture most folks can afford would be better left undelivered as well. I still have a chair my Dad made 40 odd years ago. Aside from needing new cushions/upholstery, it hasn't come loose or shown any sign of not surviving indefinitely into the future. The only other furniture I have that comes close in quality, is stuff the Amish made - and for a great deal more $ that a lot of families don't have in great supply either.
 
HeavyHanded said:
Are you implying freehand is no longer needed because of gadgets like the EdgePro?!
That's crazy talk, I almost spewed my coffee(made with a French press, not a Keurig). By that reasoning, there's no need to sharpen anything, a steady supply of (poorly) sharpened, brand new knives awaits one no further that the nearest supermarket.
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No where did I say that or imply that, that's why analogies fail to convey the point, adding another layer of something that people have a different understanding of. For example, I grew up shooting off hand because I'm a lefty, I see no need to get a left handed rifle and build up my left side to what my right side has made muscle memory. So, my understanding of off hand shooting is different than most people's... See where it gets muddy if you think about something from a very different point of view?

The coffee comment is fine, though unrelated, I'm not a coffee snob and I've had and enjoyed some very expensive coffee... Should everyone know how to make cowboy coffee and be happy with the results? Should everyone know how to tend livestock or butcher animals, should everyone know everything that I think is important or that I don't think twice about? No, very simply no because not everyone needs to be able to fix EMP shielding, chances are if you do need it, some highly trained technician did the work and you have faith (and some testing, maybe) that it will do it's job.

Very much like knife sharpening with or without jigs, clamps, electricity.

If we want to stick with shooting as an analogy, why are there sub MOA rifles, why do they cost more and do sub MOA rifles make a stock 10/22 obsolete?

There is simply a place for every gadget, every specialized tool just as there is a place for every skillset.

There is not automatic 'win' with using an edge pro, there is a learning curve for everything and the results of having that learning is practical application and at times impractical applications.

I stand by my assertion that most people cannot reach the level of sharpening that sharpening nuts, they don't have the drive to go any further than carbide scrapers, sawing through tomatoes any maybe going as far as going to knife shops that (again from what I have seen) in the majority are no better than novice sharpeners and often use power tools with poor results.

I've met enough old timers that keep their edges "sharp" who likely learned from their dads/uncles/grandfathers and most of their edges don't meet my standards.
 
I have a friend who once showed me the photos he supposedly took. He was very proud of them and even declared to me that he felt he was a good photographer. The pictures were okay. I went on a trip with him shortly afterward, and we both took a lot of pictures. He had a nice DSLR, and I observed him shooting. He left his camera on the automatic setting and snapped away. He never moved away from the automatic setting for the whole shoot.

Later that day, I told him that he was not a good photographer. In fact, he was not a photographer, at all, I told him. But his camera was a pretty good photographer. You see, he had actually never taken a single picture. Because taking a picture means making deliberate choices. It is about control and creativity. You set your white balance, your exposure settings, your shutter speed, your aperture, your ISO, your image stabilization. Every facet of it plays a role in how the picture turns out. If you don't learn how to set those things yourself and what they all mean and the subtle way they can affect your final shot, then you are not taking pictures. You are just pointing your camera at stuff and letting the camera take pictures. Sometimes it might work out well, sometimes it won't. When things go well, you will be satisfied, but you will have no idea why. And when things go bad, you also will have have no idea why. All you are is the guy pointing the camera at stuff. The camera is the photographer. And when you don't truly create something, the reward of the product is less.

In a similar way, if you never learn to sharpen freehand, then you actually don't sharpen knives at all, and in fact, you have actually never sharpened a knife. Your guided system sharpens knives. You're just the guy moving your hands back and forth. You won't ever experience what pressure and angles are truly about. You won't ever know what feedback from a stone is really like, how revealing it can be, and what subtle hints of sound and feeling from the stone can tell you about your knife. You won't be a sharpener. And you will never feel the true reward of sharpening, having made all the choices, having felt every motion and controlled every muscle movement... and having built up that skill through the learning process: the pain of practice, disappointment, and mistakes. You will never feel what it is like to be rewarded with the true product of your creativity.

Just like photography, sharpening is art. It truly is. But only if you do it manually. Because only then are you creating.
 
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I agree with the premiss of expressing yourself through what you do, not sure if all sense of personal accomplishment can be taken from the guided system result. Not quite like panning with the camera set on auto and repeat, and spending hours selecting just the right image from the resulting folio. One still has to understand the limitations of the existing set-up, how to overcome deficiencies with certain blade shapes/sizes, basics of burr formation etc, and then a whole other load of variables for getting repeatable results every time. Certainly not the same as freehanding, nor as versatile, but not the same as giving it to someone else to sharpen either.

I guess I'm in no position to be too critical - a coworker who bought the very first Washboard I made to sell, watched the video, read the manual, and on her first attempt to sharpen the first knife in her entire life, managed an edge off the 320 grit sandpaper followed by plain paper strop, that would drawcut newspaper cross grain. Not exactly surgical ward results, but I don't think she could have done that on her first try without some extra feedback...She felt a strong sense of accomplishment (and I did a little bit too). Now as I follow this thread, I have to wonder if the Washboard isn't a hybrid guided system making me a big fat hypocrite. I can always argue that over time it improves freehand skill on other media....:o

HH
 
Magnaminous_G said:
I must strongly disagree on all points.

Yes, I certainly can sharpen a knife free hand. But it will not meet my standards. Free hand does not allow the control necessary.

The Edge-Pro gives far superior "feedback" from the stone to anything I ever experienced free hand.

With an angle cube to set the stone arm, I have absolute, precise control of the angles. I also have far better pressure control with the stone arm than I ever did free hand. I can tell easily if my pressure is correct just by the sound of the stone on the steel.

To say that a person has never sharpened a knife if he hasn't done so free hand is pure hogwash. I've never had to repair a blade that was damaged by a new sharpener with a guided device. (Specifically exempting powered devices) I have repaired numerous knives that were severely botched by new people free handing.

If you enjoy free handing, then more power to you. Keep using that method. But please do not denigrate those of us who appreciate technology.
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How DO you check for a burr though? Can you just feel it with your fingernail? can you see it?


bgentry said:
You've gotten a lot of good advice here, but I have a little bit to add.

You want to start simple so you don't confuse multiple systems or techniques. The few knives you mention have steel that's much more difficult to sharpen than average steel. Check to see what your practice knives are made of. Cheap stainless would be fine. 8Cr13Mov, Sandvic steel, AUS8, "440C", or any regular stainless steel would be fine. No super steels! :)

Start with one fairly coarse stone. That could be your King 1000 grit. Or a hardware store Norton stone (Silicon Carbine AKA India). Or a coarse diamond stone if you decide to buy those. Just make sure you have a coarse stone. You need one more item: A black, red, or green sharpie.

Ok, practice knife you don't care about. Coarse stone. Sharpie. Color the edge of the blade with the sharpie and use that to see where you are hitting the edge. Grind a few strokes, then look to see where the sharpie has been scratched off. If you don't know what part of the knife you are grinding, you probably won't make good progress. The sharpie will show you exactly where you are grinding. Reapply it often and keep observing where you are grinding.

Do you know how to check for a burr? That's huge. Forming a burr should be your #1 goal, with edge angle control being #2. Stick with that one stone, one knife, and sharpie until you form a burr on the entire length of the edge. Then do it again on the other side of the blade. Then remove the burr with lighter strokes. At this point, the knife should be relatively sharp. With a King 1000 or a DMT Coarse, it should shave at this point *if* the burr has been formed and removed.

The keys here I'm trying to emphasize: Coarse stone. Burr formation. One technique. Repetition.

This is longer than I intended, but I hope it helped.

Good luck.

Brian.
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adubbz said:
How DO you check for a burr though? Can you just feel it with your fingernail? can you see it?
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Running your fingernail from spinme to edge is one test. If you have sensitive fingers you may be able to feel it with the pads of the fingers. a 20X loup or digital microscope will show it visually.

I make the first burr on the coarse stone (on each side) big enough to feel with the fingernail. The first, and coarsest stone is where you are setting the edge. Make a burr big enough to feel. After that, I minimize burr formation with the finer stones.

When I finish with the stones, I just assume there is a micro burr present, whether or not I can detect it. So I give it 4-5 laps with the barber Strop to remove it.. Don't exceed 4-5 laps with a hanging strop though, or you may round off the edge.
 
I have to disagree with you -G, if you haven't used an Edge Pro before, I suggest you go ahead and try it out, it's not an automatic razor sharp edge by any means.

You have to know how I sharpen, you have to adjust your angles, you have to control your pressure.

I wish I could just drop my knives on and magically have a shave or EDC ready edge, then I wouldn't have to take the time and effort to get what I want. I know better, and so should you.
 
Skimo said:
Bench rest gets used a lot for varmint popping.

Enough of the analogies, skills don't get passed because they aren't needed. Freehand is a PITA for a lot of people.
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That's a sad mindset. No wonder there aren't any skilled workers available; they're all a dying breed, men who didn't compromise because something was a pain in the a**.
 
Skimo said:
I have to disagree with you -G, if you haven't used an Edge Pro before, I suggest you go ahead and try it out, it's not an automatic razor sharp edge by any means.

You have to know how I sharpen, you have to adjust your angles, you have to control your pressure.

I wish I could just drop my knives on and magically have a shave or EDC ready edge, then I wouldn't have to take the time and effort to get what I want. I know better, and so should you.
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Factual. I was never able to free hand before I mastered the Edge-Pro. Once I did, I understood the basics of sharpening, and the little technicalities angles, and pressure of blade and stone. After that, I gave free hand a try once again, and was able to get some very good edges. My free hand skill set is most certainly not in the league of HH or Mag, but I can put a shaving edge on a blade without undue difficulty free hand. I could not have accomplished that ten years ago, regardless of effort expended.

I think the debate here is not really about sharpening a knife, as much as it is about developing an artistic skill vs using modern technology to achieve the best result with the least effort and time expended. Both points of view are certainly valid.

In the final analysis, the only objective is getting the edge you want and need on the blade. How you achieved that goal is really quite irrelevant.
 
somber said:
That's a sad mindset. No wonder there aren't any skilled workers available; they're all a dying breed, men who didn't compromise because something was a pain in the a**.
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I don't need to know how to sew or knit, I don't darn my socks or make toast in front of a fire. I don't need to cure meat either.

Like I said earlier in the post for most people sharpening involves a file, a draw through scraper or maybe a coarse old stone, possibly a notched honing steel.

There are still traveling knife sharpeners, have been for centuries.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Lastly, buy a coarse/fine DMT diamond hone and call it a day.
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OK, I'm going to go this route. I don't want to cheap-out, as I have a Hinderer XM24 and Large Sebby, and am looking to add more knives as I go -- so what specific stones would you buy if you were starting out fresh? Assuming I don't mind throwing a few hundred dollars at something that will last me a long time and give me the potential for the absolute best results.
 
Ben Dover said:
Factual. I was never able to free hand before I mastered the Edge-Pro. Once I did, I understood the basics of sharpening, and the little technicalities angles, and pressure of blade and stone. After that, I gave free hand a try once again, and was able to get some very good edges. My free hand skill set is most certainly not in the league of HH or Mag, but I can put a shaving edge on a blade without undue difficulty free hand. I could not have accomplished that ten years ago, regardless of effort expended.

I think the debate here is not really about sharpening a knife, as much as it is about developing an artistic skill vs using modern technology to achieve the best result with the least effort and time expended. Both points of view are certainly valid.

In the final analysis, the only objective is getting the edge you want and need on the blade. How you achieved that goal is really quite irrelevant.
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That pretty much mirrors my experience, the EP taught me how to sharpen freehand and if I had to be gone from my sharpener for months at a time it wouldn't be an issue.

Some of us haven't had people teach us, mainly because it wasn't all that important, looked at my grandpas knives almost 30 years after he died... Sharpened on what looks like a grinding wheel.

How many knives are flint knapped, how many bronze swords are made... Arts that died out because they are no longer as useful. Now the general populace has "good" quality knives, mostly serrated, how many chefs and cooks sharpen their own?

It's not my outlook, it's fact as evidenced by the numerous platforms designed for 'sharpening'.

Knife makers use jigs, water jets, lasers, third party heat treaters and more tools than I want to deal with to make the goods I sharpen and this is no slight to any of them. Collectors and users want clean lines, symmetry and a consistent level of fit and finish. I could probably dig up numerous examples of how technology has improved knives. Using technology to maintain them can hardly be described as not really maintaining them.
 
L2bravo said:
Hey Mods, Lock this purse fight down, would you?
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Ahhh, back in the day when real men carried their money in a purse and not these damn wallets! The accursed things give me an ache every time I sit in the car! And that's progress?! You can have it!!
 
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