I think it is time spyderco did something about this locking system.

[Josh K]

I believe the "play" you're referring to is when you press hard on the blade to cut something, no?

That's the rocker bar actually sinking further into the knife tang, to hold the knife tighter..... and you all bitch that it's play.

Someone mentioned a that the Salts are cheap riveted plastic knives? It's FRN. Fiberglass reinforced nylon. As Sal has reminded us, plastic can be high tech too. Look at Kevlar, or Spectra thread. Take a .01 strand of kevlar thread and try to break it like a piece of cotton thread. Go on! Wrap it a couple of times around each pointer finger and pull! You'll slice your fingers off bud.

Spyderco is neither cheap, nor sloppy. Every knife they produce and every thing that they use to produce them are all designed and focused on one thing, the End User. That's you and me.

$45 for a knife is pricey for a lot of people. Sure people here talk about it like it's nothing, but take your average fisherman. Does he have even $50 to spare on a new knife? He may if it's only $50. Simpler is better sometimes, and I doubt he'll be interested when you hand him a Sebenza and tell him it's tolerances are held to withing 0.0005", machined titanium with an S30V steel blade. Oh yeah, about $350.

I'm not a "Spyderco can do no wrong" fan boy. There is a reason I got rid of my Assist I. Spyderco is a company that I see take steps to satisfy their customers, not produce whatever they feel like with whatever happens to be laying around.

 

[the kid]

I would be curious to know which two knives you could buy for $45 total that you would consider "good" and that approximate the features and utility of a Spyderco Salt?

Specific model names would be appreciated.

I don't know what unique features and utilities you mean other then it being 100% rustproof. And light obviously because of the handle.

But anyway here are the knives:

CRKT Drifter $17
Böker Trance $25

Both frame locks without blade play.

 

[Josh K]

I don't know what unique features and utilities you mean other then it being 100% rustproof. And light obviously because of the handle.

But anyway here are the knives:

CRKT Drifter $17
Böker Trance $25

Both frame locks without blade play.

Wow. And how are those comparable? 8Cr13MoV and AUS-8 are not H1. How about build quality and construction? 100% rustproof is a pretty big feature considering not only the blade, but the entire knife.

 

[jill jackson]

I don't know about Boker, but every CRKT I ever had seemed built fine, until I used it and the edge rolled and I couldn't sharpen it. I had one of their Lightfoot models that discounted for around 45 dollars, (I believe it was AUS8A) chopping the same brush as the Salt along hiking trails quickly rolled the edge and ruined it.
It was this model:

 

[Kaizen1]

Most of the Spyderco lockbacks that I've owned and played with have had some vertical play when enough pressure was placed on the edge. I don't see this as a functional or security issue, but I don't really understand the reason for it. Most of the Cold Steel lock backs that I've played with didn't show that same issue and non of the Tri Ad locks that I've played with have had that issue. And as far as I understand, Cold Steel and Spyderco both get at lease some of their lockbacks made at the same manufacturer.

I own 2 Spyderco lockbacks and I love them. But I've always wondered about the reason for it.

 

[the kid]

Wow. And how are those comparable? 8Cr13MoV and AUS-8 are not H1. How about build quality and construction? 100% rustproof is a pretty big feature considering not only the blade, but the entire knife.

Fit and finish is near perfect on both knives. They also don't have cheap looking plastic handles.
And construction.. I can take these knives apart or adjust the pivot screw.
Which is far more important to me then having superduper A++ steel.

I did not know the knife was 100% rustproof before I "attacked" it. But my comments are targeted to all $30 and up knives with cheap handles and or rivets. (Benchmade Pika comes to mind)

 

[jill jackson]

Fit and finish is near perfect on both knives. They also don't have cheap looking plastic handles.
And construction.. I can take these knives apart or adjust the pivot screw.
Which is far more important to me then having superduper A++ steel.

I did not know the knife was 100% rustproof before I "attacked" it. But my comments are targeted to all $30 and up knives with cheap handles and or rivets. (Benchmade Pika comes to mind)

Does the Manix with it's G-10 synthetic handle and well over 100 dollar price tag seem outrageously overpriced to you as well?

 

[yablanowitz]

I don't think that's necessarily true, considering the $300.00 Native IV I had had worse vertical blade play than my $60.00 delicas did, even after Spyderco repaired the lock.

I'm not trying to be desparaging to Spyderco here, and I don't know if it's just a characteristic of lockbacks, but all of my Spydercos have vertical blade play to some degree.

I just couldn't force myself to "Just live with" worse vertical play on a high-end knife like the Native IV, as much as I loved the heck out of that knife.

Really, loving a company and the products they produce seems MORE meaningful to me when you accept the known problems they have, and like what they're putting out that you keep buying it anyway.

In some instances though, I sure would like to see it fixed!

$300 Native IV = Carbon fiber scales (added expensive material) + steel liners (added machined parts) + flat ground blade (new tooling). If all the machining was held to the +/- 0.00001" tolerance of the CRK, that little gem would probably have cost $600, maybe more.

When a lockback is open and at rest (and this applies to any lockback, not just Spyderco) the lockbar spring is holding the moving parts in a specific position, with all the parts in contact at certain points. When you apply enough pressure to the tip of the blade, you overcome the tension of that spring and move the parts to a new position, with all the parts in contact in different places. Depending on the amount of clearance between the parts, the amount of travel required to realign everything may or may not be noticeable.

On a close tolerance hand fitted knife, that distance will be very small, and the owner will doubtless claim there is absolutely no play. If there were in fact absolutely no play, the blade wouldn't move. As in, it wouldn't open and close. I've worked with enough close-tolerance machinery and friction-fit assemblies to know that. Absolutely no clearance means friction fit. In fact anything over about 80% contact means friction fit.

Mass produced knives are another story altogether. Holes are drilled to tolerances, pins are turned to tolerances, lockbars and blades are machined to tolerances. Even if all the tolerances are held to +/- 0.001", if the holes all happen to be on the plus side of the tolerance and the pins/barrels happen to be on the minus side, it can add up to a noticeable amount. And some clearance is designed in, so that having holes on the minus side and pins on the plus side doesn't lock everything up, it just results in a tighter-than-average knife.

So what should Spyderco do about the play in the lockback? Use other locks? Maybe the framelock? Spin, SS Cricket, Volpe, upcoming Sage and Leafstorm. Or perhaps they should try the Walker liner lock. Like the Military, current Sage, Centofante I and II, FRN Cricket, Barong, etc. Or they could do something a bit more innovative, like a ball lock. Dodo, Poliwog, D'Allara Rescue and Drop point, P'kal or the upcoming Manix II. Maybe they should go way out there and make something with a compression lock. Like maybe a Paramilitary, Yojimbo, Lil' Temp, Salsa or S.

Oh,wait. It sounds like Spyderco has done something about the lockback. They've made a few models for people who don't like them. How about that.

 

[the kid]

To jill jackson:

Good question.

My most expensive knife is a $50 Kershaw Shallot and it's my least favorite knife..

I don't see how a $100 knife can be any better then a $30 knife except you would have to sharpen it less often.

So yeah, I think that Manix is indeed overpriced.

 

[Josh K]

Fit and finish is near perfect on both knives. They also don't have cheap looking plastic handles.
And construction.. I can take these knives apart or adjust the pivot screw.
Which is far more important to me then having superduper A++ steel.

I did not know the knife was 100% rustproof before I "attacked" it. But my comments are targeted to all $30 and up knives with cheap handles and or rivets. (Benchmade Pika comes to mind)

Perhaps you got a fluke. I've had CRKT knives that had the liner run straight across the tang... They are good knives, I'll give them that. However, they aren't back locks... really again, no comparison. You're taking a 100% rustless knife with a titanium clip and FRN handles designed to grip the hand, and comparing it to a solid steel (read: heavy and slippery) knife, and another knife with a frame lock.

I will repeat something I've said in other threads:

Liner locks and frame locks are easier to make, but harder to make well. Back locks are hard to make, and harder to make well. However, the longevity will end up with the well made back lock rather then the well made liner lock because by design the liner lock will exhibit wear.

 

[Josh K]

To jill jackson:

Good question.

My most expensive knife is a $50 Kershaw Shallot and it's my least favorite knife..

I don't see how a $100 knife can be any better then a $30 knife except you would have to sharpen it less often.

So yeah, I think that Manix is indeed overpriced.

What do you mean how it can't be any better? Let's look at the companies behind the knives, let's look at blade steel and ergonomics, let's look at lock up and fit and finish tolerances.

What $30 knife do you think compares well to the $100+ Manix?

I'm not going to tell you that you have to like this knife or company. It's up to the person to decide what they like. Some people are perfectly happy getting a new $4 chinese gas station knife every week or so. I'm not one of those people.

 

[mdauben]

All my spydercos have vertical blade play. I put the blade on the table as if I am push cutting something and I detect blade play. All of them, police3, carbon fiber stretch, cali3, ladybug, endura, and deleca.

Like some of the other posters here, I just don't see the problem you are seeing. I own around a dozen Spyderco knives, and have never noticed blade play in any of them. In fact, I have three Spydie lock-backs in front of me right now; FRN Delica (5 y.o), FRN Centofante 4 (1 y.o.) and Al Police (10 y.o.) and all of them lock up rock-solid, with no detectable blade play.

I think it is time spyderco did something about this locking system.

I would definetly contact Spyderco Customer Service if you feel there is a problem with your knives but from my own experience and what others are saying, its not a universal problem.

My most expensive knife is a $50 Kershaw Shallot and it's my least favorite knife..

I don't see how a $100 knife can be any better then a $30 knife except you would have to sharpen it less often.

I own several Kershaw knives, including several Leeks and a Shallot. While I think they are very good knives and great buys, they are not in the same ball park as Spyderco, Benchmade or some of the other premium production knives in terms of fit, finish or materials. I certainly think a premium knife worth the additional cost over any $30 knife I have seen, and obviously a lot of other people do too or they would not be so succesful making $100+ folders.

Have you ever handled one of the high-end Spyderco knives? You might be pleasantly supprised.

 

[jill jackson]

To jill jackson:

Good question.

My most expensive knife is a $50 Kershaw Shallot and it's my least favorite knife..

I don't see how a $100 knife can be any better then a $30 knife except you would have to sharpen it less often.

So yeah, I think that Manix is indeed overpriced.

Would it surprise you that I could sell one of those Manix for probably 180 dollars or so? Which is at least 50 dollars more than I paid.

 

[J.Mattson]

I would go for a Victorinox super tinker.

Doesn’t really add anything to the discussion but I love this knife. Got one in my pocket right now.

Anyways spyderco makes some of the best lock-back knives on the market. That so many of then come in at such an affordable price point is an outstanding achievement. Something that wouldn’t be possible without a lot of hard work and dedication.

I was (am) a big fan of the Delica/Endura 3 while these are not in the Salt line they are very similar in design and construction. I’ve used them very hard and over the course of several years. And did I ever have any problems with them? Well yes, but that was because I bought a lemon (I seem to buy a lemon 1 out of 4 times I buy anything) other then that my experiences were stunning to get knives of that caliber that were so light and so easy to carry.

A lot of people have made some very good points in this thread. They’ve said that the blade play is inherent in the design and they’re right. They’ve said that to achieve the kind of tolerances necessary in eliminating the play completely the knives would be prohibitively expensive and they’re right. They’ve said that the wiggle isn’t going to affect the performance of the knife and on this last and most important bit they’re very right. I’ve heard of spyderco lock-back knives failing. However nearly all of those stories have involved a knife that (like the endura 3 I had) was defective, a lemon. Spyderco has gained a hard earned reputation for excellence. If the problems talked about in this thread were deal breakers then I don’t think this would be the case.

What ever the case this thread has been a very interesting read. With some very knowledgeable people putting their thoughts into words with far more eloquence then me.

 

[1kimo4u]

not the manix!!!!!!

cheers, kimo

 

[the kid]

What do you mean how it can't be any better? Let's look at the companies behind the knives, let's look at blade steel and ergonomics, let's look at lock up and fit and finish tolerances.

What $30 knife do you think compares well to the $100+ Manix?

Lets take the $25 Böker Plus Trance with Aus-8 steel.

Company
I dealt with the Böker costumer service and I have no complaints, in fact they send me a brand new knife.:thumbup:

Blade steel
No idea how Aus-8 compares. Its bound to be less rustproof though

Ergonomics.
The Böker fits really very well in my hands, opening and closing is comfortable to. The Spyderco screws stick out of the handle, the Böker once are nicely fitted inside.

Lock up
Is solid; no blade play. Opens with a nice sound to. Closing could use a bit more oomph.

Fit and finish tolerances
Near perfect, and I'm a picky guy.

I'd like to introduce another subject to compare knives with. Lets call it intelligent design.

As you can see the Böker has a much better blade vs handle length ratio.

The Spyderco blade is exposed a whole lot when closed, because of the hole. This makes the knife very bulky; I don't even think it would fit in my small fifth jeans pocket.

The Böker has a pretty low riding clip, the Spyderco does not.

The Böker has no "lumps" on the handle like the Spyderco which will make getting it out of the pocket more annoying.

Conclusion.
I have never handled a knife over $50 including the Manix, if I would maybe I would change my mind completely. But as it stands I prefer the Trance over the Manix (which I judge by a picture only) by a very great distance.
The Böker is small and fits in my fifth jeans pocket perfectly. The Manix is bulky, lumpy, with a high riding clip. In fact the Manix does not look like its made to carry in a pocket at all.

Would it surprise you that I could sell one of those Manix for probably 180 dollars or so? Which is at least 50 dollars more than I paid.

Haha no.
Lot of Spyderco fans here, and since the Manix is out of production I'm not surprised at all. Some people buy $300 production knives.

 

[1kimo4u]

dude! you have never handled a manix, but you seem to be an expert on it?

 

[J.Mattson]

.................................

 

[J.Mattson]

Lets take the $25 Böker Plus Trance

As you can see the Böker has a much better blade vs handle length ratio.

I have never handled a knife over $50 including the Manix

I used to get all hung up on the blade to handle aspects. However this was mostly before I started having to use my knives…a lot. The Manix is great because its blade is large enough to do what ever you want it to. And its handle is comfortable enough to use all day with or without gloves.

No one is saying that the Boker isn’t a great knife but in almost every measurable aspect its simply not in the same league as the Manix. I would try buying a knife in the $100+ range. If you look around on the exchange here you can find some great deals (for example a few days ago I sold a benchmade 616 for $92.50 here). I would wager that even if your $25 knife is “good enough” you will probably find that the upgrade is indeed an upgrade.

 

[jill jackson]

If he likes the Trance and he's happy that's all that matters.
I used to be happy with cheaper knives, too. But, the more I learned and bought progressively more expensive knives the more I realized the better stuff is worth the money.
Now I've been considering a Chris Reeve folder and I probably would have ordered one already, but a Phoenix and another Kris popped up.........