I think it is time spyderco did something about this locking system.

[jill jackson]

The handle is a huge part of how a knife interacts with the user. After all if you use one for an extended period, comfort plays in fairly quickly. If you need a knife in an emergency you will be glad to have a secure grip. I don't really like knives with small handles I can't get my hand locked in on. Spyderco makes some of the best designed handles going, IMO. You really have to hold one to feel just how well designed they really are.

 

[the kid]

The handle is a huge part of how a knife interacts with the user. After all if you use one for an extended period, comfort plays in fairly quickly. If you need a knife in an emergency you will be glad to have a secure grip. I don't really like knives with small handles I can't get my hand locked in on. Spyderco makes some of the best designed handles going, IMO.

I don't use a knife for extended periods. I find it a lot more important how it fits in my pocket. It has to fit in my fifth pocket on my jeans without exposing the knife to much, aka not being to long and having a low riding clip. I also want to be able to take it out and put it back in quickly.

Since the knife can't be to long or to wide I care a lot about blade vs handle length, and how wide the knife is while closed.

 

[elkins45]

I'll have to dig out all of my lockback knives and test them for lock flex now. The only lockback I ever carry is a waved Delica and it never gets used. I'll have to go examine them all and see how many of them have any vertical flex.

 

[Josh K]

Lets take the $25 Böker Plus Trance with Aus-8 steel.

Okay....

Company
I dealt with the Böker costumer service and I have no complaints, in fact they send me a brand new knife.:thumbup:

Funny. I've never had Spyderco send me a brand new knife. I guess that's because I haven't needed it. Because they all work... with solid lockup.... even the users.....

Blade steel
No idea how Aus-8 compares. Its bound to be less rustproof though

AUS-8 vs. S30V for the Manix? Let's compare the Honda Civic to the a Cadillac.

Ergonomics.
The Böker fits really very well in my hands, opening and closing is comfortable to. The Spyderco screws stick out of the handle, the Böker once are nicely fitted inside.

All me screws are flush. I'm sure that 2mm of square contact is causing all sorts of hot spots isn't it? You said yourself you haven't handled the Manix, so sit down, and shut up. It's hard to be civil when you're bashing a knife and a company that you have admitted no experience with.

Lock up
Is solid; no blade play. Opens with a nice sound to. Closing could use a bit more oomph.

And how's the Manix? Opens with a snap. The thing is the definition of tank folder.

Fit and finish tolerances
Near perfect, and I'm a picky guy.

It's near perfect to the eye, but I'll bet the G-10 doesn't exactly match up with the other locking side.

I'd like to introduce another subject to compare knives with. Lets call it intelligent design.

As you can see the Böker has a much better blade vs handle length ratio.

Much better? Looks to me like it's got a 2 3/4" blade and is 3 1/2" closed. That's not the best, but sure, it's better then the Manix.

The Spyderco blade is exposed a whole lot when closed, because of the hole. This makes the knife very bulky; I don't even think it would fit in my small fifth jeans pocket.

I'm not sure why you would expect a mid sized hard use folder to fit in the change pocket on your jeans. I submit that the round hole opener is more reliable then the flipper or the thumbstud on your trance.

The Böker has a pretty low riding clip, the Spyderco does not.

Probably because it wasn't designed to. It's a large hard use knife. I want to be able to grab it with heavy gloves on when I need it.

The Böker has no "lumps" on the handle like the Spyderco which will make getting it out of the pocket more annoying.

I think that flipper on the side qualifies as a "lump". Seriously, the Manix is great closed. Almost has a teardrop shape to it. I fail to see the "lumps" you're talking about.

Conclusion.
I have never handled a knife over $50 including the Manix, if I would maybe I would change my mind completely. But as it stands I prefer the Trance over the Manix (which I judge by a picture only) by a very great distance.
The Böker is small and fits in my fifth jeans pocket perfectly. The Manix is bulky, lumpy, with a high riding clip. In fact the Manix does not look like its made to carry in a pocket at all.

Conclusion:
You're making judgments on a knife you do not own, have never handled, probably will never handle, and most likely do not want to handle. I guess you're the expert.


Haha no.
Lot of Spyderco fans here, and since the Manix is out of production I'm not surprised at all. Some people buy $300 production knives.

What $300 production knives? Even the Ti Military doesn't come close to that.

I do believe that "the kid" is a very appropriate username for you.

 

[Josh K]

I don't use a knife for extended periods. I find it a lot more important how it fits in my pocket. It has to fit in my fifth pocket on my jeans without exposing the knife to much, aka not being to long and having a low riding clip. I also want to be able to take it out and put it back in quickly.

Since the knife can't be to long or to wide I care a lot about blade vs handle length, and how wide the knife is while closed.

Thus, you have again admitted your needs are different then ours, and because they are different you cannot compare the two knives. It'd be like comparing a custom Sodbuster to the Strider PT. Let's go pry a door off it's hinges with both.

 

[J.Mattson]

At one point does this stop being a debate and becomes “feeding the troll”?

 

[jill jackson]

At one point does this stop being a debate and becomes “feeding the troll”?

I believe that point has arrived, no matter what anyone says he's going to say the little Trance is superior to anything Spyderco has ever produced!

 

[Josh K]

I believe that point has arrived, no matter what anyone says he's going to say the little Trance is superior to anything Spyderco has ever produced!

My feelings as well.

 

[stabman]

Lets take the $25 Böker Plus Trance with Aus-8 steel.

Not even close.
Try cutting cardboard boxes all day with the Boker, and then the Manix, and you'll know the difference.
Try doing some hard bush-craft work with both, and you'll know the difference.
Put them both on a hydraulic breaking machine, and when you see the failure numbers, you'll know the difference.
There's a reason one costs $25, and it isn't because cheaper is superior.

 

[Seanski]

I haven't worried about blade play much since buying into the Sog Flash and Trident series knives. They move around quite a bit but they still function and prove their worth with my everyday light cutting chores.

I just can't be bothered worrying if my Zero-Tolerance 300 has developed a bit of play after building a shelter or something similar on a Saturday afternoon. I guess it's not necessarily the "destination" but the "journey" with me.

Buy a knife, get out, use it, and enjoy life and when it ceases to be functional toss it and buy another. It's just a tool.


sean

 

[marthinus]

If he likes the Trance and he's happy that's all that matters.
I used to be happy with cheaper knives, too. But, the more I learned and bought progressively more expensive knives the more I realized the better stuff is worth the money.
Now I've been considering a Chris Reeve folder and I probably would have ordered one already, but a Phoenix and another Kris popped up.........

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[shecky]

I used to be happy with cheaper knives, too. But, the more I learned and bought progressively more expensive knives the more I realized the better stuff is worth the money.

It's funny, but I've come to the opposite conclusion. I find that above about $50, there are drastically diminishing returns. What you get changes from performance to prestige.

None of my Spyderco/Byrd knives have any significant play, and they are on the lower end. So it would be a bit disappointing if I were to spend $100+ and get a Spydie with play. Not for functional reasons, mind you. I just expect increasing amounts of perfection as the price goes up.

So you really think Spyderco lockbacks don't cost enough already? The play you are referring to is caused by the clearance between the pivot pins and the pivot holes in the blade and lockbar. Yes, the clearances can be reduced, probably to the point you would think they had been eliminated. It shouldn't add more than fifty to a hundred dollars to the cost of the knife to machine everything to those tolerances and assemble the parts that are fitted that closely into a completed knife. That would only run the street price up around Sebenza level.

Why do you think Sebenzas cost so much? Premium materials and precision machining.Why doesn't Chris Reeve make lockbacks? Maybe it's because they would cost twice as much as a framelock to build to his standards.
Spyderco uses materials that are top of the line, but they leave the manufacturing tolerances wide enough to keep their knives at a point where us poor working schmucks can afford them.

This seems like a reasonable explanation, but I don't think it really holds water. Not only is precision machining is cheap these days, materials used in Sebenzas are probably the smallest percentage of the actual retail cost. Boutique knife companies have high costs because of small production numbers and high demand for those small numbers. This is a very old concept called supply and demand.

 

[ginaz]

boy, the spydie faithful do get riled up. how dare you. but in regards to the above i love to share this quote by sal glesser:]


"More profit is usually associated with higher price. That's normal. Profit is usually a percentage of sales price. To think that a high priced auto should garner the same proft as a low priced auto is not in accord with business. It might be the same percentage, but being more expensive, it will be more profit.

Unless you are a manufacturer, familiar with close tolerance manufacturing of heat treated steel & Titanium parts, you are not likely to be able to see all of the differences between one of Chris' knives and others. For example; CRK keeps 0.0005 tolerance on surface grinding. That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledge and equipment to discover that tolerance?

In the end, it's all about trust. CRK took many years to build and maintain their repuation. Built with consistent focus. Even those trying to make a "cheaper" version must "leave out processes" or "soften their tolerance", or they will cost as much.

Rarely do you pay for the "name". That's a bullshit sales pitch made up by the ignorant claiming to offer the same for less. Money valuation between countries might offer a "deal" for a while until the money value balances, but all in all, you will get what you pay for."

 

[Sep]

All this hullabaloo made me test my Endura 4 ZDP for said "play". Result: no play, but there's a slight "give" or "flex". I only got the blade to move with great pressure, and even then it's so slight I would have completely missed it if I weren't looking for it.

IMHO each locking mechanism has its own positives and negatives. Back lock is less precise (more flex), but it's more error tolerant and particularly suited for light weight knives. Frame/liner lock is very precise, but if the lock geometry is off just a bit, you got failure to lock or failure to stay open when spine whacked. Liner lock requires a beefy metal liner (more weight), while frame lock requires an entire frame side to be beefy metal (even more weight).

A lockback knife will always be more robust than a frame lock of the same weight, material, and manufacturing tolerances. Because I like lightweight knives for certain occasions, I don't mind sacrificing a little precision to make them a couple of ounces lighter.

 

[jill jackson]

The play in a linerless knife like a Salt is just the entire blade/lock moving a slight amount on the pivot pin of the lockbar. It's easy to hold the knife in one hand by the handle's end and pull the blade tip back with the other and see a bare movement at the end of the lock bar. I don't see the lock up moving at all. The movement is so slight you have to look closely to see where it is.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Paying $45 for a riveted cheap plastic handled knife, is something I would never do.

Lol Then you use a knife with a 'cheap plastic handle' (FRN on the Boker Trance) as an example of a better knife than the G-10 handled Spyderco Manix. Yeah, you're smart when it comes to knives.

Lets take the $25 Böker Plus Trance with Aus-8 steel.

Company
I dealt with the Böker costumer service and I have no complaints, in fact they send me a brand new knife.:thumbup:

Blade steel
No idea how Aus-8 compares. Its bound to be less rustproof though

Ergonomics.
The Böker fits really very well in my hands, opening and closing is comfortable to. The Spyderco screws stick out of the handle, the Böker once are nicely fitted inside.

Lock up
Is solid; no blade play. Opens with a nice sound to. Closing could use a bit more oomph.

Fit and finish tolerances
Near perfect, and I'm a picky guy.

I'd like to introduce another subject to compare knives with. Lets call it intelligent design.

As you can see the Böker has a much better blade vs handle length ratio.

The Spyderco blade is exposed a whole lot when closed, because of the hole. This makes the knife very bulky; I don't even think it would fit in my small fifth jeans pocket.

The Böker has a pretty low riding clip, the Spyderco does not.

The Böker has no "lumps" on the handle like the Spyderco which will make getting it out of the pocket more annoying.

Conclusion.
I have never handled a knife over $50 including the Manix, if I would maybe I would change my mind completely. But as it stands I prefer the Trance over the Manix (which I judge by a picture only) by a very great distance.
The Böker is small and fits in my fifth jeans pocket perfectly. The Manix is bulky, lumpy, with a high riding clip. In fact the Manix does not look like its made to carry in a pocket at all.




Haha no.
Lot of Spyderco fans here, and since the Manix is out of production I'm not surprised at all. Some people buy $300 production knives.

You do realize that the guy (Chad Los Banos) who designed the Boker Trance has also designed a knife for Spyderco and is a huge Spyderco fan, right?

 

[wildjim]

At the risk of personal attack and ridicule

I do like the look of the Boker Trance and it seems they make a drop point version, even better (for me)

Thank You all for the thread information so far as it gives a new buyer of folding knives lots to watch out for and compare.

I am also watching the spine whacking "test" of locking mechanisms closely for more results and conclusions

 

[tirod3]

Knives have bladeplay, it's an inherent part of their manufacture, and if you are looking for rock solid lockup and get it, you're lucky. Otherwise, buy fixed blades. A folding knife with a lock is naturally going to have a small tolerance stack just to be able to open and close. All mechanical devices do, regardless of perception - which is not at all an accurate or scientific assessment.

I addressed this in a thread what, two years ago? Got soundly flamed for suggesting that most knives always have play - our tolerance for it is the issue. I also suggested that those old enough to use only lockbacks and slipjoints didn't see the issue had any merit. In the day, close tolerances were the purview of the high end custom, not available to the ignorant masses because of price. Loose fitting lock blades that never failed were common.

Now we have affordable and innovative high quality knives in the hands of a very spoiled market segment who can't accept and won't understand actual factory production methods because they haven't worked a day's labor in their life. Brats - and I don't mean a type of sausage from Wisconsin.

Oh, excuse me, we just got power back - it was down three days from a straight line windstorm of 95mph that covered three states. All my floppy knives worked well in storm damage recovery, and we actually survived without the I-net, HDTV, air conditioning, etc etc.

Wahh, my Spydercos have bladeplay? You get perspective when you've handled older knives and bigger events in your life.