I used to like Ivory

[SW-EDC]

Hmm,
I posted a positive thing, but I don't see my post now.
That's ok 👍

 

[not2sharp]

I respectfully disagree. While I would like to see the elephant thrive and multiply, I cannot see how banning the sale of products made from long deceased elephants magically aids in the preservation of the species. We have been playing the ivory ban game for several generations and the only thing we have accomplished is an ever smaller elephant population. Perhaps its time to change to a free market approach; time to remove the arbitrary and wastefully expensive government intervention, and instead focus and promote the commercial exploitation of elephants. If we allow the piano keys, the elephant hide boots, the knife handles, and even the licensed hunting of these animals, there would be a real commercial value in preserving and growing the herds.

Not everything has to be reduced to absolute absurdity. Yes, poaching is bad. We can cry about it or wring our hands over it. But, if you really want to continue a spices like the elephant, you have to find the kind of investments that would supply the sort of land, fodder, safety, and security that would be required to increase their numbers. If the sale of elephant based articles can generate enough interest and demand to increase the population by 10 fold then I would be all for it. Man has been exploiting cattle for millenniums, yet we seem to have ample numbers of them available for now. Even the alligator has been farmed back from extinction. It is time to grow up, to give up the stranglehold on the silly emotional arguments that have been undermining the species and to embrace the realities of what it would take to actually promulgate a workable solution.

The only thing the Ivory and hunting bans have achieved is to reduce the value of these animals, so as to open and make available more and more of their territory for other purposes such as agriculture or cattle farming. We can choose to watch Disney's Dumbo repeatedly, or we choose to make real world choices; perhaps it is time to do the latter while there is still enough of a genetic pool to make it work.

n2s

 

[not2sharp]

Synthetics are tough and can be eye appealing.
rolf

Which would make you a cheerleader for the petroleum industry?

There is nothing wrong with synthetics, but, variety and freedom of choice is always better.

n2s

 

[needler420]

You don't have freedom of choice with Ivory lol. It's banned in united states nation wide. The only legal Ivory is from predate stock.

Half the reason the law exist is as a grandfathered in premise. They can't regulate items already in circulation. If you have a 50 year old Ivory whatever you can't regulate someone using the material to put on a new project. Which is just like many of you here. Have old knives with Ivory. Well there is intrinsic demand and the cycle.


The problem with that is that old stock never gets smaller never depreciates. Which tells you the system is flawed. People forge documents and do whatever means to make poached ivory appear as legal. Also on mammoth ivory it is also illegal and sale or trade of the material in four US states. CA, New Jersey, Hawaii and one other I'd have to look up. You're free market ideology to me implies if we raise them like farmed chicken and pigs then it's ok to harvest them. If people ate the whole elephant maybe I would agree. They are huge animals to kill for just ivory and fossil fuels in millions of years which human species may be extinct to even use. So besides their Ivory they have few resources and probably do more good in the chain of the ecosystem.

All the ivory seized in Africa gets burned. If you google images you can see crazy stockpiles of ivory getting burned in recent years. The weight in the tons. The highest level of conserving and preserving the elephant species realizes its a matter of intrinsic value which equates to monetary value.

It's like what happened with diamonds and blood diamonds. A lot of women getting married don't want a diamond unless they know it's from a conflict free diamond. They don't want anyone to have spilled blood for the ring on their finger.

 

[leghog]

I too avoid ivory, even "recycled". Zero demand from me. I have no problem with the commercial use of fossil ivory.

 

[Boxer .45]

I order, well lets just say enough, stuff from Midwayusa for my guns, mostly ammo. Because of that the owner Larry Potterfield, gave some customers including me a hardcover book which I thought was thoughtful. Now I'm all for hunting and conservation of species, and believe it can be done ethically. However when I opened this book it was 3/4 full of photos of elephants and giraffes and lions and cheetahs, rhinos, etc, frankly I was pretty disgusted. In a few of the photos it showd him clowning around in front of the kill and one shocking photo of a camp with at least a dozen rare animals. Like I said, I'm for hunting as long as its not close to extinction and its a managed species, but not solely for a trophy.

I don't know what the intention of the book was but it seened like "look at me" or "look what I can do that you can't, an elitist attitude that he and friends can take out the last of a species just because they had more money than anyone else.

I mentioned it on a few sites and got allkinds of crap for it, mostly people arguedthat only rich and elite could afford the hunts abd that all that money went towards defending the animals from poaching. That may be true to some degree, I mean similar funds come from hunting licenses and donations towards conservation for hunting and preservation for game reserves and protected areas. However those species aren't in a critical decline, are managed (which includes beneficial harvesting as well as food plots and breeding areas and protections), and they shree aren't nearly extinct nor harvested soley for trophies.

If I thought those animals were stable I would feel much differently. I also don't agree with the "their money is the only way to fight or stop poaching". If those people are so rich and care so much about the species and that is their purpose, then why don't they just give money to the cause? Why don't they donate much more just for procreation programs and breeding grounds? There are so many more avenues to support such a cause, and so many managed animals that could be hunted that aren't in threat of decline.

I wouldn't mind continuing to use preban ivory because I think it would be a shame to waste it. But how do you know for sure it's preban? I don't care for it as a material at all personally. I do like wood scales and would buy some if it was preban. My understanding is that cocobolo either was about to be or is on a extinction ban, I have some but bought it before I heard that, I'm not going to just burn it or throw it away, it's beautiful and what a shame to waste it now.

I think we do have a responsibility as end users to keep new rare materials off the market by making the invaluable. Many grip and scale makers, a few that I know personally still have some but refuse to use it anymore. I think most of that is for fear of confusion and getting in trouble even though its preban. Honestly I'm just as or more disgusted with mammoth tusk/ivory.

I think synthetics look like crap.

I also can't imagine the chemical components in g10 etc are great for the environment, but it concerns me less than the extinction of a species.

 

[Steven65]

All the ivory seized in Africa gets burned. If you google images you can see crazy stockpiles of ivory getting burned in recent years. The weight in the tons. The highest level of conserving and preserving the elephant species realizes its a matter of intrinsic value which equates to monetary value.

That's absolute nonsense. An insignificant amount of Ivory has been destroyed that way by a few countries looking to give the appearance of conformity for political and financial reward.

The vast majority of Central and Southern African ivory is still in huge stockpiles.

 

[mbp]

I respectfully disagree. While I would like to see the elephant thrive and multiply, I cannot see how banning the sale of products made from long deceased elephants magically aids in the preservation of the species. We have been playing the ivory ban game for several generations and the only thing we have accomplished is an ever smaller elephant population. Perhaps its time to change to a free market approach; time to remove the arbitrary and wastefully expensive government intervention, and instead focus and promote the commercial exploitation of elephants. If we allow the piano keys, the elephant hide boots, the knife handles, and even the licensed hunting of these animals, there would be a real commercial value in preserving and growing the herds.

Not everything has to be reduced to absolute absurdity. Yes, poaching is bad. We can cry about it or wring our hands over it. But, if you really want to continue a spices like the elephant, you have to find the kind of investments that would supply the sort of land, fodder, safety, and security that would be required to increase their numbers. If the sale of elephant based articles can generate enough interest and demand to increase the population by 10 fold then I would be all for it. Man has been exploiting cattle for millenniums, yet we seem to have ample numbers of them available for now. Even the alligator has been farmed back from extinction. It is time to grow up, to give up the stranglehold on the silly emotional arguments that have been undermining the species and to embrace the realities of what it would take to actually promulgate a workable solution.

The only thing the Ivory and hunting bans have achieved is to reduce the value of these animals, so as to open and make available more and more of their territory for other purposes such as agriculture or cattle farming. We can choose to watch Disney's Dumbo repeatedly, or we choose to make real world choices; perhaps it is time to do the latter while there is still enough of a genetic pool to make it work.

n2s

You think ivory bans are based in "magical" thinking, yet propose that "promoting the commercial exploitation of elephants" is going to stabilize the elephant population?

Commercial exploitation of elephants is the reason the elephant population declined and necessitated a ban in the first place! Look at the plume hunting craze around the turn of the 20th century that nearly wiped out dozens of species of birds in North America and Europe. Look at the passenger pigeon. Making it easier and cheaper to exploit elephants will turn out exactly the way common sense would think: they'll be gone even faster.

The problem with blind faith in unfettered free markets is that it relies on the unproven assertion that markets tend to make fundamentally rational and sustainable decisions. But they don't. Markets are made up of irrational human beings, and the free market is too often penny-wise and pound-foolish. Capitalism is the best we've got but it to be saved from itself at times.

 

[22-rimfire]

I own one knife with elephant ivory scales. Not looking to buy another one. Has nothing to do with my feelings about the African elephant. It has everything to do with the price. So..... as the price increases, more and more people will stop buying products that use ivory. It's simple.

African elephants need to be managed in terms of being a resource. Let's stop the poaching. Hunting and conservation is the key. The elephant population will increase slowly. Most of the countries with African Elephants are pretty poor. People are often starving or very much hand to mouth in terms of food resources. So, there is a big appeal to people who live in these countries to survive by any means necessary. If you lived there, you might well do the same. It's time to get off your high western horse. These are just animals and very large animals that can be very destructive to agricultural resources.

I would hate to see the African Elephant population go extinct. But frankly, I wouldn't loose a lot of sleep over it. Lots of animals have gone extinct.

 

[SuperPollito]

I respectfully disagree. While I would like to see the elephant thrive and multiply, I cannot see how banning the sale of products made from long deceased elephants magically aids in the preservation of the species. We have been playing the ivory ban game for several generations and the only thing we have accomplished is an ever smaller elephant population. Perhaps its time to change to a free market approach; time to remove the arbitrary and wastefully expensive government intervention, and instead focus and promote the commercial exploitation of elephants. If we allow the piano keys, the elephant hide boots, the knife handles, and even the licensed hunting of these animals, there would be a real commercial value in preserving and growing the herds.

Not everything has to be reduced to absolute absurdity. Yes, poaching is bad. We can cry about it or wring our hands over it. But, if you really want to continue a spices like the elephant, you have to find the kind of investments that would supply the sort of land, fodder, safety, and security that would be required to increase their numbers. If the sale of elephant based articles can generate enough interest and demand to increase the population by 10 fold then I would be all for it. Man has been exploiting cattle for millenniums, yet we seem to have ample numbers of them available for now. Even the alligator has been farmed back from extinction. It is time to grow up, to give up the stranglehold on the silly emotional arguments that have been undermining the species and to embrace the realities of what it would take to actually promulgate a workable solution.

The only thing the Ivory and hunting bans have achieved is to reduce the value of these animals, so as to open and make available more and more of their territory for other purposes such as agriculture or cattle farming. We can choose to watch Disney's Dumbo repeatedly, or we choose to make real world choices; perhaps it is time to do the latter while there is still enough of a genetic pool to make it work.

n2s

Too much logic....ahhh....my eyes....my head....make it stop.

 

[needler420]

I own one knife with elephant ivory scales. Not looking to buy another one. Has nothing to do with my feelings about the African elephant. It has everything to do with the price. So..... as the price increases, more and more people will stop buying products that use ivory. It's simple.

African elephants need to be managed in terms of being a resource. Let's stop the poaching. Hunting and conservation is the key. The elephant population will increase slowly. Most of the countries with African Elephants are pretty poor. People are often starving or very much hand to mouth in terms of food resources. So, there is a big appeal to people who live in these countries to survive by any means necessary. If you lived there, you might well do the same. It's time to get off your high western horse. These are just animals and very large animals that can be very destructive to agricultural resources.

Ivory prices raising won't stabilize anything. All that means is its a different level of class able to afford them.

In China it's not $200 dollar knives with Ivory handles or parts for a gun. It's the entire Ivory tusk carved by famous artist and sell for a quarter of a million or half million dollar pieces.

Prices raising just means "you" can't afford it plenty of others can.

You're concept of the people there are poor so they poach. That is the obvious. If there is demand the intrinsic value it will be supplied.

 

[Lapedog]

What about Mammoth Ivory? That is a great alternative?

Inwarched a documentary about the now extinct White Rhino species. Poached to death for their horn which actually could be cut off and regrown without killingnthe animal. Poachers killed the animal anyway for its horn valued in Chinese medicine.

Someone way saying the only way to save the species was to start farming them like cattle. Its too late now.

 

[kniferbro]

I prefer my elephant steaks medium rare with a nice pad of herbed butter.

All joking aside, I am not opposed to the use of ivory. I am opposed to the slaughter of elephants which are remarkably intelligent creatures. I personally do not own any ivory.

 

[kniferbro]

Almost every "charity" or cause are money laundering tax cheating schemes. Look at how they spend "donations" and who they hire in important policy dictating positions. Everything thing is legal but it is far from what the average dupe believes. These are created by elite for elite. First, natural habitat is willfully developed (aka destroyed) preventing locals from producing food and then arm locals with weapons to feed themselves and then criticize them for living. Then they get the mocking birds to criticize them too and in come clean donations along with other monies. Wash, rinse, repeat. No one changes their buying habits when people are displaced but an elephant or polar bear and all hell breaks loose. Mammoth is better than ivory anyway and they died naturally as if it mattered anyway. We can clone the tusk NOW anyway so another moot point. Investigate any professional beggars before you fund their operation or they'll never stop.

Poked to death by 2 dozen hominids or corralled off a cliff isn't exactly "natural" to me but I get your point!

 

[22-rimfire]

Ivory prices raising won't stabilize anything. All that means is its a different level of class able to afford them.

In China it's not $200 dollar knives with Ivory handles or parts for a gun. It's the entire Ivory tusk carved by famous artist and sell for a quarter of a million or half million dollar pieces.

Prices raising just means "you" can't afford it plenty of others can.

You're concept of the people there are poor so they poach. That is the obvious. If there is demand the intrinsic value it will be supplied.

Banning ivory won't change anything sir. I could easily buy ivory pieces now. I just don't feel the price justifies what you are getting. I consider it a novelty item.

As the price increases, fewer and fewer people have the ability to purchase anything made with ivory whether it be "art", a gun handle, or a knife handle or scales.

Consider if the American Bison were sized like elephants..... would we have mostly exterminated them during the 1800's? The answer is YES. There was a big demand for the leather. Now... consider the "new bison elephants" being raised and herds developed in the USA.... just how long do you think they would last after they pretty much destroy a corn field in the midwest or tear up homes? People and elephants really don't mix very well. They are essentially competing for the same plants and space. Whether you like it or not, people will win regardless of any bans put in place.

Let the UN military types shadow the African Elephant herds and guard them. Give them something to do and we can watch it all on CNN.

 

[needler420]

You can buy Ivory now because it's legal from predated stock. Which as stated is highly corrupted market and lots of poached ivory gets put in the legal circulation.

If trades and sales were banned outright it be like saying I can still get heroin all the time. Yeah you can and face criminal prosecution.

If they raise the penalties you will find it less on the black market.

 

[22-rimfire]

You can buy Ivory now because it's legal from predated stock. Which as stated is highly corrupted market and lots of poached ivory gets put in the legal circulation.

If trades and sales were banned outright it be like saying I can still get heroin all the time. Yeah you can and face criminal prosecution.

If they raise the penalties you will find it less on the black market.

Well, that is all well and good. But let's be practical about this. I have my doubts that a total ban on ivory will have any impact what so ever here in the US. We may be the second largest market for ivory in the world (they say), but that is only because as a country we are the richest. The US is NOT the problem. It's China and nearby countries that consume ivory.

Alcohol prohibition didn't work. Ivory bans won't work. Increasing the penalties didn't really work with drugs. After all, our former president just had a bunch of non-violent criminal's sentences stayed. You have to deal with this issue at the source. Again, the US is not the problem. The US has had laws for a long time regarding elephant ivory sale.

 

[needler420]

The premise is not to stop poaching. Nothing will be 100%

The purpose is to stabilize the species from being extinct.
Any animal will always be poached no matter the laws. The law is intended to stabilize the species not to necessarily stop all poaching.

Sea turtles are highly illegal to mess with. Because they were endangered. I am sure that people poach them still. The strict law on golpher totals stabilized the species though.

 

[gazz98]

I'm totally content with G10 or micarta. Easy to work with and comes in a variety of colors. I have and will continue to avoid ivory, bone, wood, antler, and metal handles. G10 and micarta just seem the most comfortable to hold.

I can't even use a badger hair brush to lather my shaving cream in the morning. Synthetic there too.

 

[22-rimfire]

The premise is not to stop poaching. Nothing will be 100%

The purpose is to stabilize the species from being extinct.
Any animal will always be poached no matter the laws. The law is intended to stabilize the species not to necessarily stop all poaching.

Sea turtles are highly illegal to mess with. Because they were endangered. I am sure that people poach them still. The strict law on golpher totals stabilized the species though.

So, you want to penalize law abiding people who might just happen to want something made from ivory? Poaching is the cause. Stop the source and if it is possible for the African Elephant to come back from being endangered, it will.

You seem to just want to make laws.... I recommend something a bit more proactive.