I used to like Ivory

22-rimfire said:
Not so terrible in the way I used it above. They are both about personal freedoms. One the poster probably cared about a lot and the other they didn't care at all. Personal freedoms. It is like a hunter saying let's ban AR's because they have no interest in them, but other people do.
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Selective outrage, yep.

Personally although I do not like ivory or its trade (or poaching obviously) I'm inclined to go with the African natives on this one. There was a mega-thread last year or maybe the year before, you probably remember. Lot of talk about this but ultimately, I think what we do here would be more gesture than actual solution.
 
RedLynx said:
Selective outrage, yep.

Personally although I do not like ivory or its trade (or poaching obviously) I'm inclined to go with the African natives on this one. There was a mega-thread last year or maybe the year before, you probably remember. Lot of talk about this but ultimately, I think what we do here would be more gesture than actual solution.
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If someone can come up with a way to stop the damage from fukushima and the deep water horizon spill then I'd be happy to hear their ideas for stopping poaching.

I personally don't care to hear someone hanging out in their comfortable air conditioned homes with their cars sitting in their driveway, using devices that have gold and lithium in them, made in Chinese cities with smog so bad you can cut it with a knife, talking about poor elephants and how bad it is for them. Not when what they're doing is worse for the overall long term environment than what some poachers are doing in a couple of African countries.

It's hypocrisy, plain and simple.
 
bodog said:
Maybe I'm being a little cynical but exactly what do elephants contribute? It's not like we're talking about whales or dolphins that keep a natural balance worldwide.

I don't particularly like killing for sport or for trophy but come on, elephants, as majestic as they are, don't really mean a whole lot. Not enough to get your panties in a wad.

If I was a poor African man and I could kill some elephants and sell the tusks and feed my kids for a couple of months I'd do it. I'd probably feed them the meat, too, but there may be something bad or nonsensical about eating elephant meat that I don't know about.

I don't have any ivory and probably won't but I'm not upset about it. If it genuinely upsets you then do something more than pass laws that won't work any better than any other law. Go to Africa and start hunting poachers. Don't sit here and argue and make things bad by advocating for restricting freedom even more. If you want to take my freedom away you better be doing something about your cause more than sitting in a recliner complaining.
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bodog said:
If someone can come up with a way to stop the damage from fukushima and the deep water horizon spill then I'd be happy to hear their ideas for stopping poaching.

I personally don't care to hear someone hanging out in their comfortable air conditioned homes with their cars sitting in their driveway, using devices that have gold and lithium in them, made in Chinese cities with smog so bad you can cut it with a knife, talking about poor elephants and how bad it is for them. Not when what they're doing is worse for the overall long term environment than what some poachers are doing in a couple of African countries.

It's hypocrisy, plain and simple.
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It's either all or nothing, right?


:rolleyes:
 
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I am trying to abide by the prohibition of politics in General, but this thread keeps trying to tempt me to transgress.
 
craytab said:
It's either all or nothing, right?


:rolleyes:
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Not all or nothing, it's a matter of logic and common sense. If you're supporting the long term destruction of the environment by buying and using certain unecessary products made in certain ways that could kill us all then don't make a fuss when other people are are buying or using unnecessary products that only harm an extremely small percentage of the environment.

It's the "pull the stick out of your own eye first" principle. Like I said, I don't like poaching and killing endangered animals for unnecessary reasons but I'm not one to complain when I do so much that harms the environment and animals in it myself. You too. And pretty much anyone else typing responses on this forum.
 
bodog said:
Not all or nothing, it's a matter of logic and common sense. If you're supporting the long term destruction of the environment by buying and using certain unecessary products ..... .
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The problem is that just about anything can and has been labled an unecessary product by others. Where do you draw the line, mob rule? There are many who think Rap music is unecessary and offensive. Should we ban that? And just about everyone can name a religion, creed or belief that they find uneccesary and offensive, which do we ban first?

We need to all learn to become much less politically correct and far more tolerant.

Banning ivory is much the same folly as banning guns or anything else; we target the law abiding in an effort to indirectly control the behavior of the lawless. It is a foolish approach, sold to the unthinking, usually to advance self-serving purposes of those who care nothing about elephants. The real mission here is to tax and spend vast sums on yet another meaningless program, for which no-one will ever be held accountable.

n2s
 
120 Acres said:
He got one to bite.
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It helps to say something relevant when quoting a person who has a history of changing their posts later. Much better than "quoted for posterity".

bodog said:
Not all or nothing, it's a matter of logic and common sense. If you're supporting the long term destruction of the environment by buying and using certain unecessary products made in certain ways that could kill us all then don't make a fuss when other people are are buying or using unnecessary products that only harm an extremely small percentage of the environment.

It's the "pull the stick out of your own eye first" principle. Like I said, I don't like poaching and killing endangered animals for unnecessary reasons but I'm not one to complain when I do so much that harms the environment and animals in it myself. You too. And pretty much anyone else typing responses on this forum.
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Like this: thank you for proving my point. I usually stay out of ivory threads other than sharing my brief thoughts in a single post but the above view is particularly strange. You either don't care about elephants or you are out there hunting poachers. You either shut up on the environment or stop talking about it on the internet and go live in a hut. Right.........

And with that, I'm out. Hopefully someone else will quote the next odd statement....
 
It's all very tragic for animals
Having to die unnaturally on the account of having
Been born with some material substance
Which in the past
Have deemed suitable for craftsman.
Fact is, hand carved craftsmanship
Out of animal parts
Is an outdated pursuit.
I can understand and appreciate the idea of
Turning waste material
Into objects of art;
Which is fine for a hobby.
But it's really detrimental
For the world in general
Once it's done industrially
as a money making enterprise.
Frankly, I can't think of one valid reason
Except for its lack of speculative material value.
Why animal parts are still somehow treasured as rare.
It is beyond reason that man made substitutes
Which is probably more durable and lasting
cannot be made appealing enough for the discerning human eye
In place of horns and stuff.
So sad that human greed has been the cause of so much ruin.
 
The way I see it is that the practice of burning seized ivory is disrespectful to the unfortunate animal that lost its life, and is a total waste/loss. The authorities should sell that ivory, then take the proceeds and use them to protect those endangered species. Doing so would take the poachers out of the financial loop.
 
not2sharp said:
The problem is that just about anything can and has been labled an unecessary product by others. Where do you draw the line, mob rule? There are many who think Rap music is unecessary and offensive. Should we ban that? And just about everyone can name a religion, creed or belief that they find uneccesary and offensive, which do we ban first?

We need to all learn to become much less politically correct and far more tolerant.

Banning ivory is much the same folly as banning guns or anything else; we target the law abiding in an effort to indirectly control the behavior of the lawless. It is a foolish approach, sold to the unthinking, usually to advance self-serving purposes of those who care nothing about elephants. The real mission here is to tax and spend vast sums on yet another meaningless program, for which no-one will ever be held accountable.

n2s
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Pretty much the truth right there
 
Every time I go to a custom knife show, I see these custom makers from all over, big towns, little towns, out in the boonies. Their ivory handled knives are all made with "pre-ban" or "legally sourced" ivory. I always used to wonder, where does it all come from? How I do I know this is true? Next thought, if it can't be verified, should I buy it and become the last link in a chain that leads from a dead elephant? Change comes from one person at a time. I've never had a burning desire for an ivory handled knife, but if I every buy one, it will be vintage, not made since WWII. It's an old concept, but "keep the faith."
 
brownshoe said:
Every time I go to a custom knife show, I see these custom makers from all over, big towns, little towns, out in the boonies. Their ivory handled knives are all made with "pre-ban" or "legally sourced" ivory. I always used to wonder, where does it all come from? How I do I know this is true? Next thought, if it can't be verified, should I buy it and become the last link in a chain that leads from a dead elephant? Change comes from one person at a time. I've never had a burning desire for an ivory handled knife, but if I every buy one, it will be vintage, not made since WWII. It's an old concept, but "keep the faith."
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The answer is that it cannot be verified. There may be a genetic test to show where in Africa the animal came from or even if it is Asian of African in origin but by eye you cannot tell if it is 5 or 50 years old.

In answer to your first question there is still a lot of pre-ban tusk in circulation in the U.S.
U.S. hunters have been visiting Southern and East Africa on Safari for over a hundred years. Even up until very recently hunters were able to bring back their trophy tusks into the U.S. So there is a lot of Ivory still out there.

If you find any South African pre-ban custom knives with Ivory in the U.S. you can be absolutely guaranteed that they are made with legal conservation Ivory.
 
not2sharp said:
....Banning ivory is much the same folly as banning guns or anything else; we target the law abiding in an effort to indirectly control the behavior of the lawless. It is a foolish approach, sold to the unthinking, usually to advance self-serving purposes of those who care nothing about elephants. The real mission here is to tax and spend vast sums on yet another meaningless program, for which no-one will ever be held accountable.
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That's pretty much it in a nutshell. Reality. I sincerely hope that the African elephant does not become extinct. If you want to control it, you control it at the source before the animals are dead and scavenged for their ivory tusks. After they are dead, I see no point in burning up ivory and the government could sell it and make some money for elephant protection programs in their country. The problem is many of these countries are so corrupt that more than likely the government is looking the other way.
 
22-rimfire said:
Not so terrible in the way I used it above. They are both about personal freedoms. One the poster probably cared about a lot and the other they didn't care at all. Personal freedoms. It is like a hunter saying let's ban AR's because they have no interest in them, but other people do.
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Yes, it is a terrible analogy because the contrasts are vast and so outweight any comparison you can try to force. The only comparison you have is the"private property" comparison and your ability to sell it or trade it.

Illegal ivory will be in the market as long as there is a demand for ivory. Matters not if currently legal ivory is legal to trade or sell or currently of is the trade/selling of currently legal ivory is banned. I have chosen to have no demand for ivory and won't add to the demand for ivory.
 
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