I was just told a skeletonized tang has more strength. Is that true?

[Eli Chaps]

Maybe he was talking about under the handle. Removing material under the handle will make the glue up stronger as there is more surface area for the epoxy to bond. I drill holes to lighten the weight and for added surface area during glue up.

Maybe what he was talking about?

That picture is awesome! I was scrolling down on my laptop admiring the lines and uniqueness of each design...Oooo Damascus...Whoa! MONSTER!!! It's like a great white swimming alongside some reef fish.



Uh hum...Sorry, back to the regularly scheduled programming.

 

[Mistwalker]

To think I was really looking forward to being able to handle a lot of different Bark River knives when KSF opens their store front which is supposed to happen soon. I don't use knives really hard and only own a couple BRKT fixed blades. I have to say that I really like the Wilderness Explorer model, but I have no idea what the tang looks like other than it is a "full tang". I guess my question is "why would BRKT cut so much out of the tang in the first place?" Scrap steel prices aren't exactly high. I assume it (pictured) would be one of their "light" models. But they may in fact do this on many of their blades.

Don't worry, KSF will have plenty of other knives besides BRK&T, and some undoubtedly made by high quality people. From what I can tell so far from what I have seen with my own eyes, the skeletonization is not in fact the worse thing about Bark River knives.

 

[Sonnydaze]

That said, most skilled makers out there skeletonize tangs in some way to some extent. For better balance and weight distribution and hand comfort in use, because all of that mass of an actual full on full tang isn't necessary unless the knife is destined from the outset to face serious abuses in lateral stress. For a "normal" user knife it just makes the handle heavier than it needs to be and fatiguing to the hand and wrist in long term use.

Good stuff, and major agreement here.
Among other lesser brands, I have several VERY expensive 3" fixed blades which I carry cross-draw. It's a great steel, and all is well, other than the balance.
I found this one in 1/8" spine thickness, ffg, but also have one in thickness of 0.170" and it's not unusual to find "fat boys" in much greater thicknesses. These models (this maker) are generally reputed to excel under heavy use.
I like this 1/8" knife, but for casual use, the balance is terribly weighted to the grip. This one would benefit from lightening holes...or a tapered tang.

 

[Horsewright]

Thanks guys Don and Eli!

 

[marrenmiller]

The only way I can think of that removing material could lead to an increase in object strength would be the use of fillets to reduce stress concentrations. And even this relies on the assumption that the maker did a poor job at designing his tang, because there shouldn't ever be an issue with stress concentrations if you know what you're doing. Other than that, there's just no way to make an object stronger by removing material from it.

 

[davek14]

If the steel is the same hardness, the skeletonized handle is still weaker. I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but a handle hardened to a low level and one hardened to a high level will both flex the exact same if they're of the same shape and dimension. The difference is that a softer one will take a permanent bend before the harder one. So in other words, to theorize - with 20 pounds of force, both might flex the same amount and return to straight. With 40 pounds, the softer one might be permanently bent, while the harder one would come back to straight. With 60 pounds, the softer one might be very bent, and the harder one might take a small bend, or depending on hardness, break.

I wasn't clear enough. I was thinking about breakage. Like, would a skeletonized tang glued up in a flexible handle be less prone to break.?

 

[eKretz]

I wasn't clear enough. I was thinking about breakage. Like, would a skeletonized tang glued up in a flexible handle be less prone to break.?

Still not clear enough. Would it be less prone for the steel to break? Or for the handle scales to pop off? Because handle scales and glue would make a negligible difference to the overall strength of the steel handle. There isn't an epoxy made that comes anywhere near the strength of steel. Solid steel handle would be strongest, possibly with some small holes to help the epoxy hold to keep the scales in place well. The skeletonized handle would be made slightly stronger with epoxied handle than without, but not a huge amount.

 

[davek14]

Still not clear enough. Would it be less prone for the steel to break? Or for the handle scales to pop off? Because handle scales and glue would make a negligible difference to the overall strength of the steel handle. There isn't an epoxy made that comes anywhere near the strength of steel. Solid steel handle would be strongest, possibly with some small holes to help the epoxy hold to keep the scales in place well. The skeletonized handle would be made slightly stronger with epoxied handle than without, but not a huge amount.

In other words, since hardened steel is more brittle, would the skeletonized tang flex without breaking better. I'm thinking a solid handle would be better in that regard now although still not positive. We have been thinking of steel beams, not hardened steel.

 

[eKretz]

In other words, since hardened steel is more brittle, would the skeletonized tang flex without breaking better. I'm thinking a solid handle would be better in that regard now although still not positive. We have been thinking of steel beams, not hardened steel.

No. Solid is better. Stronger. And faster.

Again, for equal hardness levels, thickness and outside dimensions, the skeletonized handle would break easier than solid.

 

[Jordan@DLT]

Its not stronger, but in reality its not appreciably weaker. If you use the knife even close to reasonably a skeletonized tang will not give you issues.

 

[Mistwalker]

Its not stronger, but in reality its not appreciably weaker. If you use the knife even close to reasonably a skeletonized tang will not give you issues.

Yes, as long as quality of the steel being used and the quality of the person(s) in charge of all the various processes involved are both good, I agree.

 

[danbot]

In other words, since hardened steel is more brittle, would the skeletonized tang flex without breaking better. I'm thinking a solid handle would be better in that regard now although still not positive. We have been thinking of steel beams, not hardened steel.

Any time you add holes to steel you are creating stress raisers. These are areas that will be prone to fracture and crack propagation.
A round hole wont be as bad as say a square hole with rounded corners. Sharp corners is just asking for trouble! But under normal circumstances a knife should not even come close to experiencing enough stress to initiate a crack in the tang.

 

[Natlek]

This is OP's handle in question maybe ? https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...ang-is-so-skeletonized.1607822/#post-18367120

This is weak point ! All skeletonize should be behind front pin ! From there you can do whatever you want !

 

[Natlek]

Still not clear enough. Would it be less prone for the steel to break? Or for the handle scales to pop off? Because handle scales and glue would make a negligible difference to the overall strength of the steel handle. There isn't an epoxy made that comes anywhere near the strength of steel. Solid steel handle would be strongest, possibly with some small holes to help the epoxy hold to keep the scales in place well. The skeletonized handle would be made slightly stronger with epoxied handle than without, but not a huge amount.

You forget pins in handle ? Tight mount pins/better pinned one/ hold scale in place probably more then epoxy .... Strength of steel/tang / + Strength of handle material = Total strength of handle .
PS. I would like to see who can bend with hand 6mm thick carbon fiber scale ,even only 0,00000000000001 inch

 

[Natlek]

Making any cuts or holes can only weaken the steel itself , but if the handle is built up with high strength epoxy filling all voids and joining together strong material for scales , then the handle will end up very strong and act as one piece . The steel will break somewhere else , often at the hilt . IMO , but I'm not an engineer or knife maker .

You do not have to be an engineer or knife maker to be right

 

[eKretz]

You forget pins in handle ? Tight mount pins/better pinned one/ hold scale in place probably more then epoxy .... Strength of steel/tang / + Strength of handle material = Total strength of handle .
PS. I would like to see who can bend with hand 6mm thick carbon fiber scale ,even only 0,00000000000001 inch

No, they just weren't mentioned. Still doesn't matter. The pins are only holding the scales on, not strengthening the handle a huge amount. They do add some amount of strength, but nothing like the handle being solid steel. Most of the strength increase come from the pins holding the scale material, the scale itself and adhesive, the latter of which have nowhere near the strength of solid steel. Breaking the handle would just crack the scale around the pins and pop the adhesive loose or split the scale. And it would be easy to flex carbon fiber that amount, your breath could probably do it from thermal expansion on one side. Now if you had said .010" you might be onto something. Steel would be tough to flex the same amount by hand at that thickness too. This is assuming you mean a piece of either at the length of something like a knife scale. A long piece would be very simple to flex a lot more that.

And by the way, we were considering the handle exactly the same in either case other than skeletonizing, so the solid steel handle would have the same scales, epoxy and pins. It would still be stronger.

 

[letsurf]

How cool would it be if we had a non sekeletonized blade and a skeletonized blade and then added a handle to test the breakage point. It would be an interesting case study. I don't have knife making equipment or I would do it just for fun.

 

[microbe]

Yep, holes are weak spots. In the handle, and in the blade.

 

[letsurf]

The spiderco sort of surprises me. I feel like the epoxy should have been strong enough for the handle to at least break where the metal broke and not separate from the blade that easily.

P.S. I was considering a Bark River Aurora so I contact BR and asked if it is skeletonized. It is, just like the Bravo. Looking for alternatives I contacted LT Wright about the GNS and it is actually a solid full tang, not skeletonized. So is the Genesis and Outback. I purchased an Aurora a few days ago and I'm more confident in my purchase now that I know it is actually full tang. They are almost identical in design and considering the GNS is less expensive, easier to get, and full tang I believe it is a better choice for me.

 

[eKretz]

Yes, holes and skeletonizing make things much weaker. And stress risers are very real. Believe it or don't, no skin off my nose.