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Today we have powertools, that speeds up the process. So, we don't need all the assistance like swordmakers from the past. Imagine doing it all by hand!
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I'd like to make a sword.
- Thread starter Daniel Fairly Knives
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Today we have powertools, that speeds up the process. So, we don't need all the assistance like swordmakers from the past. Imagine doing it all by hand!
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I don't believe power tools greatly affect what I was refering too. The diversity of skill sets needed to make a traditional sword are impressive to say the least. The power tools speed up the process but you need to have that skill to begin with. If we are speaking in terms of pure function, then yes, a grinder or milling machine would knock out a sword pretty quick. What I was talking about was the painstaking detail that evolves into an artform. Here is a link to a gentleman making a Tsuba reproduction... you'll see what i mean when I tell you that powertools only help so much.
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Okay Rick, I see where you're coming from. The skill and artistry in that video is unreal. Although I can appreciate that level of detail, is it necessary for a functional sword? A blind man couldn't tell if his guitar has inlays of gold or how detailed the work is.
By no means am I saying that art is not desirable. I am only asking, does it increase the function of the sword?
I would love to have that level of detail on a fully funtional, traditional sword. I wouldn't use that sword, maybe not at all, at least not the same way I would use my SW Waki.
The OP was regarding making of a sword. I do think a sword should be forged, balanced, alive, but does that mean it has to be a piece of art, or be that detailed? I would be more likely to buy and use a more simple, less ornate sword. If I win the lottery, well I'd go for something else.
An I agree that power tools take away some of the feedback compared to a hand tool. When I said "powertools" I was also thinking of the forge itself. We have propane, premade charcoal, and pre-made steel sources. Not a team to maintain a fire for 24 hrs, and raw ore.
We also have thermometers, and timers, accurate scales, and a host of modern materials not used in traditonal swords.
Can a modern sword have G-10, micarta, or carbon fiber handles? Can that be made into art, I would hope so, at least beautiful. You know, a true artist can use modern materials, and still be expressive.
By no means am I saying that art is not desirable. I am only asking, does it increase the function of the sword?
I would love to have that level of detail on a fully funtional, traditional sword. I wouldn't use that sword, maybe not at all, at least not the same way I would use my SW Waki.
The OP was regarding making of a sword. I do think a sword should be forged, balanced, alive, but does that mean it has to be a piece of art, or be that detailed? I would be more likely to buy and use a more simple, less ornate sword. If I win the lottery, well I'd go for something else.
An I agree that power tools take away some of the feedback compared to a hand tool. When I said "powertools" I was also thinking of the forge itself. We have propane, premade charcoal, and pre-made steel sources. Not a team to maintain a fire for 24 hrs, and raw ore.
We also have thermometers, and timers, accurate scales, and a host of modern materials not used in traditonal swords.
Can a modern sword have G-10, micarta, or carbon fiber handles? Can that be made into art, I would hope so, at least beautiful. You know, a true artist can use modern materials, and still be expressive.
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Rick, thanks for the link...that is amazing....I was speechless when i saw the finished product. Daniel, I am also in the beginning stages of making a sword, fortunately i have Delbert making me a big ol' chunk of his bad ass damascus to do it out of. I am taking the approach of fun and whatever time it takes. Just take your time and have fun with it, you have the skills necessary to make it happen. Just don't rush and i'm sure it will turn out great 
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Nope, it has little to do with function... That is why I said,
The references I have, all point to the fact that as they began to refine and perfect their skill (as the Japanese seem to do with everything) that certain aspects of swordmaking broke off into separate schools. I only make mention to this when comparing modern swords (Like Wally's Katana Tac or even Cas Hanwei's high-end models) to traditional pieces. They may look the same, but they are not.
Rick
The references I have, all point to the fact that as they began to refine and perfect their skill (as the Japanese seem to do with everything) that certain aspects of swordmaking broke off into separate schools. I only make mention to this when comparing modern swords (Like Wally's Katana Tac or even Cas Hanwei's high-end models) to traditional pieces. They may look the same, but they are not.
Rick
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I personally think the best example of what Rick is talking about is the video of the shop-at-home salesman breaking the cheaply made Katana.
It may look the same if you whip something out quickly using machines... but looks can be deceptive.
Does gold inlay improve the function? Not that I know of. Doest attention to details of heat treatment and cross sectional geometry improve the blade? I'm told it does. Can a quickly made sword be "functional"? Depends on how you define "functional".
Let me put it to you as a question... would you trust your life to a shop-at-home network sword? How comfortable would you be using a cheaply made sword as a last ditch weapon to save your family from a hoard of ravenous zombies? Could you really trust the cheap sword to take off the zombie heads and NOT break?
What other use does a sword serve today? If it can't decapitate zombies and keep your family among the living, it isn't worth having.
Are you so cheap you'd trade your family's safety for a few bucks saved on a cheap sword?
The undead are coming... will you be prepared?
It may look the same if you whip something out quickly using machines... but looks can be deceptive.
Does gold inlay improve the function? Not that I know of. Doest attention to details of heat treatment and cross sectional geometry improve the blade? I'm told it does. Can a quickly made sword be "functional"? Depends on how you define "functional".
Let me put it to you as a question... would you trust your life to a shop-at-home network sword? How comfortable would you be using a cheaply made sword as a last ditch weapon to save your family from a hoard of ravenous zombies? Could you really trust the cheap sword to take off the zombie heads and NOT break?
What other use does a sword serve today? If it can't decapitate zombies and keep your family among the living, it isn't worth having.
Are you so cheap you'd trade your family's safety for a few bucks saved on a cheap sword?
The undead are coming... will you be prepared?
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By functional I guess I mean Battle ready, not going to break in two, loose the handle, or any other catestrophic failure. By functional I mean that it doesn't have to be pretty, in regards to artistic flare. Attention to the details of steel, heat treatment, geometry, weight, balance, and ergonomics of the handle are of utmost importance. By functional I don't mean cheap or quickly made.
I just imagine that cutting micarta with a table saw, instead of a hand saw, would make no difference in the performance.
Again the OP was about making a sword, so I'm just curious about how to approach the process. I wouldn't want cheapness, but machines make faster work of what is otherwise very time consuming.
I have a hand carved bokken, but I'm sure a saw mill cut some of that wood with a power tool. It was at the final stages that the hand tools made my bokken. What machines could speed up the modern sword manufacturing without compromising quality?
I just imagine that cutting micarta with a table saw, instead of a hand saw, would make no difference in the performance.
Again the OP was about making a sword, so I'm just curious about how to approach the process. I wouldn't want cheapness, but machines make faster work of what is otherwise very time consuming.
I have a hand carved bokken, but I'm sure a saw mill cut some of that wood with a power tool. It was at the final stages that the hand tools made my bokken. What machines could speed up the modern sword manufacturing without compromising quality?
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Part of the problem, I think, is that there is no longer a reasonable definitions of "battle ready". Is the sword designed to withstand full force thrusts from another sword, or simply the ocassional hacking off of a human limb or head?
What is the purpose?
And as for the micarta handle... and self respecting zombie would take one look at that and KNOW that the maker had taken shortcuts, and be emboldened to attack.
What is the purpose?
And as for the micarta handle... and self respecting zombie would take one look at that and KNOW that the maker had taken shortcuts, and be emboldened to attack.
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I know the term Battle Ready is a phrase open for all kinds of misuse. I just don't know what a modern sword is designed to do either, Zombie? Why is it that my big chopper can have micarta scales, as well as my Swamp Rat Waki. Yet, if you put it on a sword, it's a shortcut? I'm asking because I don't know the answer to that.
As far as grip and vibration, my chopper and Waki seem strong, and effective.
Could you explain what is the best sword handle material(s) and why it's better than maybe micarta scales?
Is it the best we can do?
The modern axe is not really an art piece. It is merely a tool for funtion. The technique for handling an axe head has been the same for hundreds of years, because it works. Excluding fiberglass handles, attaching wood to metal is the challenge. I don't like fiberglass handles, I prefer the old style of hickory or ash.
I'm trying to think of the modern sword as a tool, sure it has it's symbolic associations, but do Zombies really notice? It's form is functional, the handles just need to have grip and not fall off. So, do traditional handles work better than micarta scales? and Why?
As far as grip and vibration, my chopper and Waki seem strong, and effective.
Could you explain what is the best sword handle material(s) and why it's better than maybe micarta scales?
Is it the best we can do?
The modern axe is not really an art piece. It is merely a tool for funtion. The technique for handling an axe head has been the same for hundreds of years, because it works. Excluding fiberglass handles, attaching wood to metal is the challenge. I don't like fiberglass handles, I prefer the old style of hickory or ash.
I'm trying to think of the modern sword as a tool, sure it has it's symbolic associations, but do Zombies really notice? It's form is functional, the handles just need to have grip and not fall off. So, do traditional handles work better than micarta scales? and Why?
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Embellishments are often a sign of profiency. I recently got to handle a Martin Mandolin made around 1900 and while I knew it would be high quality I was floored when I saw the ornate mother of pearl flowers and ivory vine running up the fretboard, each petal a different piece of mother of pearl. While Martin is known for their simple and great sounding guitars, this gave me an idea of the skill level involved. No wonder the "plain" ones sound so good!
As far as the man vs machine thing goes, I think anything can only be as good as the person or device that made it. We did design the machines after all. I don't know swords as well as I know gemstones. While I have seen some nice precision machine cut stones I have never seen any as nice as the ones cut by hand. I'm sure for basic stuff a machine made product is great but there is nothing like the attention to detail a person has. Can a machine tell if a girl is pretty?
As far as the man vs machine thing goes, I think anything can only be as good as the person or device that made it. We did design the machines after all. I don't know swords as well as I know gemstones. While I have seen some nice precision machine cut stones I have never seen any as nice as the ones cut by hand. I'm sure for basic stuff a machine made product is great but there is nothing like the attention to detail a person has. Can a machine tell if a girl is pretty?
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Rick, thanks for the link...that is amazing....I was speechless when i saw the finished product. Daniel, I am also in the beginning stages of making a sword, fortunately i have Delbert making me a big ol' chunk of his bad ass damascus to do it out of. I am taking the approach of fun and whatever time it takes. Just take your time and have fun with it, you have the skills necessary to make it happen. Just don't rush and i'm sure it will turn out great
Thank you for the encouragement! I saw the design you had for that sword a couple weeks back in chat... it's going to be really cool.
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Foxx, you really should ignore me... I know nothing about swords... but I did read a book about zombies (the Zombie Survival Guide).
But since you asked, I will render an opinion. Let me first start by saying I am prejudiced against micarta. Don't like it... nossir... just don't like it. If I return from the dead to eat the living, I will make it a point to attack anyone wielding micarta or G10 handled weapons.
Like you, I really don't know what makes a good sword handle, especially swords based on Japanese designs.
- Greg
But since you asked, I will render an opinion. Let me first start by saying I am prejudiced against micarta. Don't like it... nossir... just don't like it. If I return from the dead to eat the living, I will make it a point to attack anyone wielding micarta or G10 handled weapons.
Like you, I really don't know what makes a good sword handle, especially swords based on Japanese designs.
- Greg
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Foxx, you really should ignore me... I know nothing about swords... but I did read a book about zombies (the Zombie Survival Guide).
But since you asked, I will render an opinion. Let me first start by saying I am prejudiced against micarta. Don't like it... nossir... just don't like it. If I return from the dead to eat the living, I will make it a point to attack anyone wielding micarta or G10 handled weapons.
- Greg
No problem at all man. I don't know swords, but wish I did. I've learned bits and pieces over the years. I do love the way traditional swords look, katana and others. I just don't think I like all the pieces, too many parts in the handles. I don't say that due to experience either, just that I've heard of them rusting under the handles. I like simple, strong, and long lasting tools. I don't mind oiling, sharpening, cleaning, but I don't want to take apart a handle for storage, or to clean out the Zombie goop.
Like you, I really don't know what makes a good sword handle, especially swords based on Japanese designs.
I haven't even held a real exampl of a high end katana to know what I want from one. If I had one, it would only be there waiting for the Zombies.
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I don't claim to know much of anything in the realm of swords but from a utilitarian stance I can see removable handles being an advantage for a warrior. Some of my unsubstantiated reasoning...
1. You can remove the handle to clean, repair or otherwise refurbish the blade.
2. I'm sure handle took a beating in battle too. The ability to replace them would be a plus. Some owners had several mounts for the same blade.
3. Having a take down blade allows the user to assess the condition of the weapon. Much like field stripping a rifle.
Just taking a shot in the dark on those...
Rick
1. You can remove the handle to clean, repair or otherwise refurbish the blade.
2. I'm sure handle took a beating in battle too. The ability to replace them would be a plus. Some owners had several mounts for the same blade.
3. Having a take down blade allows the user to assess the condition of the weapon. Much like field stripping a rifle.
Just taking a shot in the dark on those...
Rick
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I also think it's a good idea that handles can be removed, repaired, etc..
I will say, Rick I really like the thinking behind your wrapped handles. New wrap would be easy to replace, more so than micarta slabs. Plus, you have a length of cordage with you at all times.
Would you ever wrap a sword handle like that? Would it move under the stress of battle?
I will say, Rick I really like the thinking behind your wrapped handles. New wrap would be easy to replace, more so than micarta slabs. Plus, you have a length of cordage with you at all times.
Would you ever wrap a sword handle like that? Would it move under the stress of battle?
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My current wraps are epoxy soaked, so you can't use the cordage. I would trust the wrap to hold up to any abuse you give it. The testing I did on them was extreme. I liken them to wrapped hemp micarta. I would and have used it on short swords.
14"blade, 8" handle
14"blade, 8" handle
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Is that the Bush Ido? I really like your style of blades and handle wraps. I find that I am wanting to get away from the mass produced, one of a million looking blades. I now have 2 forged blades, and have always been interested in the Japanese sytle of cutlery and weapons.
As far as swords, I think too many copies of the katana are sold everywhere. Not that many aren't beautiful, I'm just getting more into the rustic Japanese look. The look of your blades are awesome, do you make a longer version of that Bush Ido?
I got this a few weeks ago, from Big Rock Forge.
As far as swords, I think too many copies of the katana are sold everywhere. Not that many aren't beautiful, I'm just getting more into the rustic Japanese look. The look of your blades are awesome, do you make a longer version of that Bush Ido?
I got this a few weeks ago, from Big Rock Forge.
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Its a bit bigger than the Ido. The Ido is 18"OA, this one is 22"OA..... I have a Waki in the works that is 26" OA.
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sword v sso...
The more lively they feel in the hand, the less well they seem to cut 2 by 4s in one strike. I chronographed my strikes and it seemed I had to get the livelier swords to higher impact speeds.
Giant knives or sso easily cut 2 by4s in one swipe. Maybe those are SSA... sword shaped axes? These can get yer back out.
Epoxy soaked wrap handles are frikkin bombproof, but I also like takedown construction with grade 8 or better bolts. Trees, old 4" rope, and probably zombies have abrasive bits stuck on and in them so it's nice to be able to refinish after playing.
Someone mentioned S-7 and the high cost associated with using it... yes it costs me over $100 bucks for steel to make up my average S-7 blade... but we're talking swords that will be used by hamfisted bush-living savages like me (or could be, no offence to my clients). Plus, heat treatment response for the facilities I have available is important.
William
The more lively they feel in the hand, the less well they seem to cut 2 by 4s in one strike. I chronographed my strikes and it seemed I had to get the livelier swords to higher impact speeds.
Giant knives or sso easily cut 2 by4s in one swipe. Maybe those are SSA... sword shaped axes? These can get yer back out.
Epoxy soaked wrap handles are frikkin bombproof, but I also like takedown construction with grade 8 or better bolts. Trees, old 4" rope, and probably zombies have abrasive bits stuck on and in them so it's nice to be able to refinish after playing.
Someone mentioned S-7 and the high cost associated with using it... yes it costs me over $100 bucks for steel to make up my average S-7 blade... but we're talking swords that will be used by hamfisted bush-living savages like me (or could be, no offence to my clients). Plus, heat treatment response for the facilities I have available is important.
William
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sword v sso...
The more lively they feel in the hand, the less well they seem to cut 2 by 4s in one strike. I chronographed my strikes and it seemed I had to get the livelier swords to higher impact speeds.
Giant knives or sso easily cut 2 by4s in one swipe. Maybe those are SSA... sword shaped axes? These can get yer back out.
That makes sense... gives me more to think about, what do I want in a sword?
Epoxy soaked wrap handles are frikkin bombproof, but I also like takedown construction with grade 8 or better bolts. Trees, old 4" rope, and probably zombies have abrasive bits stuck on and in them so it's nice to be able to refinish after playing.
I have been considering take down handles on all my knives because of this. There are a lot of practical reasons for them, easy cleaning, no glue bond to worry about, to me they look great. It would be cool to offer a knife with a few handle options; different colors, material, or texture.
Someone mentioned S-7 and the high cost associated with using it... yes it costs me over $100 bucks for steel to make up my average S-7 blade... but we're talking swords that will be used by hamfisted bush-living savages like me (or could be, no offence to my clients). Plus, heat treatment response for the facilities I have available is important.
I have been debating using 5160 vs 3v for my first swords. On one hand the 3v costs a lot more but I don't have to deal with scale, warpage seems less likely, and I can grind it thinner pre heat treat. I go through a ton of belts with 5160, the scale is an issue especially pre ht. I really lean to the 3v now that I feel more confident with my grinds.
William
Thanks!