If the Axis is the best locking mechanism

[biogon]

My Axis knives are my favorite, but give me a frame lock any day for really messy jobs. Ever try to clean fish scales and guts out of an Axis?
It's much easier on an open backed Ti frame locker.

That's one certainly one very real advantage of a particular lock type over another.

Another is that particular kinds of locks afford the ability to use certain features.

With AXIS and Compression locks, for example, it is somewhere between very very difficult and physically impossible to install a flipper.

With liner and framelocks, you can't have certain kinds of deep front guards built into the handle that you can do very easily with Compression locks.

-j

 

[WadeF]

Okay, have it your way.
I'll revise my statement and say that, IMO, a Benchmade Bali-Song folder is stronger than any Axis-lock folder.

I have never seen or even heard of a Bali-Song failing.

Allen.

Probably because most people with bali-song's don't use them as hard as someone with another type of folding knife. What makes you think they are stronger than an AXIS lock folder? Do you have any facts to back this up?

If we put a balisong's blade and an AXIS lock's blade in a vice, and then pushed down on the handles, I would think the little stop pin on a balisong would fail before the AXIS lock breaks through the dual steel liners, or the blade cracks.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

No, Wade. That's absurd. What are you testing for??

Take an axis lock folder in your hand, grip it carefully, use it in a wide range of activities. Can you make the lock fail in ordinary, even heavy-duty use? Under what circumstances would the lock bar slip and release the blade?

The only circumstances I can imagine collapsing the lock would be a strike from the front of the knife against the lock bar. Say, in reaching into a bush to cut a branch and having another branch bump the lock bar.

Now take a balisong in your hand, grip it carefully, use it in a wide range of activities. Can you lose your grip in ordinary, even heavy-duty use? Under what circumstances would the blade close on your fingers?

I can't think of any.

Your scenario, with the vise, is totally unrealistic. You're testing for materials, not use. And all of these knives' materials are stronger than the human hand holding them -- that's why you need a vise in the first place. But that tells us nothing about what users face in the real world.

 

[psy-ops]

I love lock backs but I won't argue about it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Your scenario, with the vise, is totally unrealistic.

Hold the blade in hand, simulate a martial collision where someone hits it, this replicates the vice test indirectly, it is a dynamic vs static load but the same general arguement made applied. Spyderco even has a rating developed just for folders for this purpose. Even a moments reflection would make this obvious if you consider weapon impacts in general because if it was true with every time sticks made contact they would be knocked out of the hand. I have done this lots of times having my brother do the stick contacts and he has never knocked any knife out of my hand, but many locks have been broken. I have also seen lots of bali's with very small pins that would be much easier to break in such contacts than many other locks.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I like the Axis lock fine and the compression lock also but both seem to have a wide variance of inconsistancy in how much of the lock engages the blades they secure. My HK 34 has just enough lock bar on the blade to keep it from closing but its the bare minimum and I mean the bare minium. I got spoiled by my 420 Resistor and my HK29 that have the bar well up on the blade so far when the blade is open that you can even see blade behind and in front of the bar when its engaged. On the HK34 this is not the case and in fact it contacts so little that it just looks iffy as far as security. Fortunately it passes spine taps and pressure tests fine though. Even still I've considered sending it in to BM to have them make it contact farther up the blade for my own peace of mind.

I've noticed this on my Dodos and the Poliwogs I've seen also. Some have better contact by the ball moving farther up the blade to secure it and some are just barely enough to get the job done. Thats one of the risks you take buying sight unseen by mail order I guess. I've owned five Dodos and only two had ball contacts that I really liked. They all seemed to work and maybe I'm being picky but to me I'd rather have that ball well up on the blade rather than just barely over it on the very end of the release spot where the blade rotates.

Lockbacks are one of my favorites but having taken my fair share of them apart to rebuild them I can tell you that even those can be iffy where you are trusting a knife with very little contact of metal to metal to secure the blade opened. Many of these knives out there in the public hands give the illusion of security but are just barely contacting the lock bar enough to get by when you break them down and really check them out. There is a high degree of trust in the lock back folder. Apparently they have performed well overall in tests though which is good.

At least with the frame lock you know where you stand and how much lock is there to secure the blade. I prefer the convenience of a frame lock but here in the last few months I've carried either an axis locking BM of some kind or a compression locking Spyderco like the Dodo or Poliwog.

STR

 

[WadeF]

No, Wade. That's absurd. What are you testing for??

Are you reading the same topic I am!? The guy I was debating with claims the balisong is stronger than an AXIS lock. The only way to determine that is to do as I mentioned. We weren't debating which knife has less chance of closing on you in real word use. In real word use I'd rather have my 710 with an AXIS lock as it has a way better grip than a bali. I'd be more afraid of my hand slipping with a bali.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

We weren't debating which knife has less chance of closing on you in real world use. In real world use I'd rather have my 710 with an AXIS lock as it has a way better grip than a bali.

OK, you're not dealing with the real world.

(Personally, I like the axis myself, even if I tend to rely on framelocks and lockbacks in actual use, and the 710 is the only axis I still own.)

 

[AmadeusM]

Don't liner, frame, and compression locks wear out with use and become more likely to close on you?

 

[DewChugr]

The lock on the Buck revolution is pretty strong since you're physically holding the blade open by gripping it.

Steve

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Don't liner, frame, and compression locks wear out with use and become more likely to close on you?

All systems degrade. A well-made liner, frame, or compression lock might not wear out in the lifetime of he owner -- who will also degrade.

 

[STR]

In my opinion the coil springs of the compression lock will out last the omega springs of the axis locks many times over but both seem to hold up very well. You do on occasion hear of an axis lock spring needing replaced but there are two of them. I have never heard of both going out and for that matter the way the knife is made even if both did go out on you in the field you could easily wedge a stick or something in behind the lock bar on that knife and make it very secure and useable again.

STR

 

[allenC]

Probably because most people with bali-song's don't use them as hard as someone with another type of folding knife.

Considering how old the bali-song design is and how it has been used in the Phillippines for countless decades, I would suspect that they have been used and proven much more so than most other types of locking folders.

What makes you think they are stronger than an AXIS lock folder? Do you have any facts to back this up?

There have been threads here on the forums about how an Axis-lock folder failed.
I've never seen a thread about how a Bali-Song failed.

If we put a balisong's blade and an AXIS lock's blade in a vice, and then pushed down on the handles, I would think the little stop pin on a balisong would fail before the AXIS lock breaks through the dual steel liners, or the blade cracks.

I will not try this on one of my benchmades, but I do have a cheap Fury bali-song that I will try this on.
I'll let you know the results.

I actually think that the "weak link" in the Axis-lock design is the stop-pin.
My Griptilian's stop-pin is not screwed in and freely turns within the liners.
In fact it only has about 1/16" of steel on each side inside the liners, and only the pivot screw tension to hold the stop-pin in place.

BTW, have you ever placed an Axis-lock folder, or a Benchmade Bali-song, in a vice and performed your suggested test?

If so, give us the details of the test and the results--after all, we're all here to learn, right?

Allen.

 

[spyder10]

look at strider, their locks are very strong and well made but all (i think) are liner locks. i trust strider very much and i know that they have torture tested many of their knives, so there is no "perfect lock" just the best for the situation.


I think that im gonna hafta say that the bali is the best lock period

the topic about the benchmade vs bali is not a fair debate, it has been beaten to death in the bali forum......if i remeber, they decided that the benchmade is much beeffier lock/pin which makes it not a fair fight. but if the bali had an equal blade/pin/handel strength it would lose its flipablity. the same goes with a strider or any other large folder. so on an equal plane the bali would probaly beat a liner lock but since the bali is always going to be "weaker" in nature than the axsis, liner lock ect......

 

[Laceration]

I prefer the convenience of a frame lock but here in the last few months I've carried either an axis locking BM of some kind or a compression locking Spyderco like the Dodo or Poliwog.

STR

Actually, those Spydercos use the Ball Bearing Lock system. The Compression Lock is used on the Paramilitary, Salsa, and ATR.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

look at strider, their locks are very strong and well made but all (i think) are liner locks.

It doesn't invalidate your comments, but the SMF / SnG / PT Strider folders are framelocks. The older AR / GB models are linerlocks.

 

[STR]

Actually if you read the red catalog from 2005 when the Dodo was still being made it says in the description for the type of lock, "nested compression lock" not ball bearing lock. They didn't start calling it the ball bearing lock until the 06 catalog. It is still referred to as both but the ball bearing lock makes more sense than having two compression locks in the inventory.

STR

 

[WadeF]

I actually think that the "weak link" in the Axis-lock design is the stop-pin.

You think? Maybe if you stab into something and are pulling up on the handle. If you stab into something and are pulling down on the handle there really isn't any force against the stop pin, it's all on the pivot and the axis lock bar which has a lot of material around it.

I wish I had tons of extra cash laying around so I could afford to destroy knives all day and post the results.

 

[allenC]

If you stab into something and are CUTTING downward, putting pressure on the cutting edge of the blade, you're also putting pressure on the stop-pin.

You can check this one out without damaging your knife--just temporarily remove the stop-pin and see how it performs.

 

[jlh2600]

I was asking about axis/frame lock regarding this knife in particular (skirmish). So whether a balisong is stronger is kind of left field... but carry on. Interesting debate.

OK, so I see some +/- to axis vs frame lock. Don't suppose it makes a huge difference to me so long as they are both regarded as AMONG the best (still seems like axis leads the way in what has been reported here though, but won't bother me on a skirmish I guess).

Hey, would someone familiar w/skirmishes take a look at this one: http://www.thebrightedge.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=17449&cat=248&page=1

Is that a GREEN titanium handle!? Or is it just the lighting?

EDIT- ok figuring out the color coding- 630-503 is all black, with blue holes; 630-502 the handle itself is blue; dont know if that one above is green or grey, but it has rainbow hoels. I think i like either the 502 or 503 best. Need to see in person I think.