If you are a Knifemaker....then be a Knifemaker

[Esav Benyamin]

I ran some 'selling' questions by Karda and was told I would need a 'knifemakers' subscription to follow the forum rules. I currently have a 'gold' membership. Is there a way to upgrade my membership...or do I just have to buy a new membership? Teddy

The way to upgrade is simple. Buy the new membership. When it goes into effect, then go to Tech support at http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/f...upport-General-Q-amp-A-Site-Feedback-amp-More and post a message asking for your remaining Gold membership time to be pro-rated to your new Knifemaker membership, extending it.

 

[richard j]

i get a lot of knives in for sharpening and regrinds and if someone asks for something else to be done that i do not do like blade coatings, i'll send the person to a paying member before i would a non paying member so not having the proper membership can hurt your business.

 

[elementfe]

oops, question had been answered.

 

[Patrickknives]

I don't know of another forum or magazine that provides the level of knowledge and content as Bladeforums, It is well worth my support in $$ and time.

 

[Karda]

At present I've come across 45 members with home pages or references as knifemaker in their profile.
Warnings have been sent.

To those who've complied........THANK YOU!



To those whom have not complied. Shame.
You have until 1/10/14 to comply with your warnings as requested. Failure to do so will result in the termination of your membership on Bladeforums. If you value your participation here. Please either comply as requested or purchase the proper membership.

 

[james terrio]

I admit I have a vested interest in this conversation and policy, because I do pay for my membership (and I assure you, it's worth every cent)... so I do get a little pissy when someone tries to "sneak in under the radar" and undercut me or my colleagues. I consider that a dirty and cowardly move. Can't compete on the up-and-up, eh?

Regardless, I will say again, the folks who run this forum are bending over backwards to help us make, sell and promote high-quality knives and materials. Not just in ShopTalk or the Exchange, but in every single subforum.

Anyone could notice that every single person with an orange or green hue in their name (makers/craftsman/dealers) is 100% in support of the policies these folks are explaining. What does that say?

It says we're trying to follow the rules here, because they (BF ownership and mods) help us put groceries on the table - or at least pay for our materials and the massive amounts of stuff we've learned here. This forum works very, very well for all of that! It's a dang good investment, short or long-term.

Not to mention facilitating the free exchange of technical information, whether it's between people trying to make a dollar or people looking to spend one.

The mods are paid nothing as far as I know, and I strongly suspect the forum owner is barely breaking even. It's been made very clear, many times, what types of stuff a person is encouraged to post and share, and that unpaid advertising is not allowed.

For those that claim the forum owner is just trying to make a buck off of us... do you even realize that he runs an entirely different site/business where he sells knives and gear? Where he does not sell my knives (or those of any other custom/handmade maker that I know of)?

For a mere pittance, he is not only allowing me to compete directly with him, but providing the exposure for me to do so, and doing the hard work to make it happen (servers, programming, etc.) . Think about that long and hard, before you accuse him of being "greedy".

I pay a whole lot more for my own website every year, and I get much more work through BladeForums. Think about that, too.

I simply don't see any problem with the rules and policies here. What the dickens are these whiners whinging about? What's the problem?

There's only three explanations... they simply don't get it, they're trolling, or they're trying to glom onto the biggest knife forum on the planet for free and profit thereby. Either way... good riddance.

 

[silver_pilate]

Not everyone does this for profit, James, Unfounded accusations are part of what got people upset about these rule clarifications in the first place. That said, the rules have been explained, and if you want to play in this playground, you have to follow them.


--nathan

 

[elementfe]

I pretty much agree with all Terrio says, and would just add that some of the folks who are discussing this are saying that there are very experienced makers who have no interest in promoting their work HERE who are a huge (one of the greatest) benefit to the forums, and we don't want there to be any barriers or difficulties if they feel moved to contribute.
All they have to do, of course, is see that there's no website link in their profile. The mods and owner are pretty sensible about that.

There are so many cases in which I look at threads in the Q&A forum and wish someone like Bump or Wheeler would answer the question, but when they don't, I go ahead and share what I've learned. "Blind leading the blind?" Not really, though I'd sure rather be able to read a more experienced maker's answer instead of mine.

 

[Karda]

Not everyone does this for profit, James, Unfounded accusations are part of what got people upset about these rule clarifications in the first place. That said, the rules have been explained, and if you want to play in this playground, you have to follow them.


--nathan

What "unfounded accusations" are we talking about? I haven't seen any unfounded accusations.
Every warning I've sent has been double checked and completely "founded".
People need to understand that it is their responsibility to check the rules, understand and follow them. They need to re-read the rules from time to time, in case anything has changed. Unintentionally breaking the forum rules is still breaking the rules nonetheless.

I pretty much agree with all Terrio says, and would just add that some of the folks who are discussing this are saying that there are very experienced makers who have no interest in promoting their work HERE who are a huge (one of the greatest) benefit to the forums, and we don't want there to be any barriers or difficulties if they feel moved to contribute.
All they have to do, of course, is see that there's no website link in their profile. The mods and owner are pretty sensible about that.

There are so many cases in which I look at threads in the Q&A forum and wish someone like Bump or Wheeler would answer the question, but when they don't, I go ahead and share what I've learned. "Blind leading the blind?" Not really, though I'd sure rather be able to read a more experienced maker's answer instead of mine.

There isn't, nor should there be, any barriers to those with experience helping answer questions, offering guidance and such at any membership level. If they plan to offer advice with advertisement or plugs for their own business or benefit, they should have the proper membership to do so and speak freely. No one can force anyone to offer assistance. As a community member, it should be offered freely without ego or ideas of recompense involved. That's what community is about.

 

[richard j]

i dont see what is so hard about paying for a membership. i do a lot of business but i really dont make a lot of money. its hard for me to come up with the $75. but i'll save up so i will have that money when my membership is due. even if i ever get to where i'm not able to do much sharpening or knifemaking but still contribute to keep the forumgoing i will even if its passing on what i know.

 

[silver_pilate]

Karda, I'm not talking about this current round of account checks. I'm talking about threaded discussions that happened some time ago and some individual conversations with other moderators that members and former members had in the past. I'm also talking about James' assumptions regarding why people are in violation of the rules. As you say, unintentional violations are still violations, but saying that someone is trying to get something for nothing or sneak under the rules nefariously is an accusation that may or may not be based in fact. After warning if someone refuse to follow the rules, that's something different.

-nathan

 

[Overmountain]

In my day job, I am one of the leading experts in my area for some subjects. I am an instructor, teacher, and trainer. I don't make any extra money for this generally, but I see it as a duty and an honor to be asked to teach. Someone more knowledgeable than me taught me once upon a time, now it is my duty to do the same.

What you call 'blind leading the blind' I see as more of a study group type atmosphere. One person a little more experienced than another helping them along. When we get a great WIP by the experienced makers its like a lecture session. It is a perfectly healthy and fruitful atmosphere. Reflected in the quality of the first knives produced by some new makers lately...

I consider myself somewhere in the middle. I have enough business to keep my shop running. Repairing, rehandling, sharpening, sometimes some light gunsmithing (I'm an armorer for several different makes), custom flashlights etc. Somewhere in there I make a few knives and sell them. I think they turn out quite nice and my customers are very satisfied... I have experience with the materials we use reaching back to my childhood.
As for using a knife, and thus design to some degree, I think I rank pretty well up there experience wise... I think this experience may assist some new makers from time to time so I pass it on... If someone with more experience comes along, terrific... I just may learn something too...

This is by far the best knife forum period. I paid to sell here, but honestly never do. I think I sold one knife, maybe two. The stuff I make is usually sold before its done. I too am six months backed up with work to be done mostly from word of mouth, not here directly.... And for that, I am thankful. But, I know my simple website has gotten some visits from here. My Pintrest photos have been repinned. I believe that extra little bit is worth the membership fee. At the very least, paying members help keep this site the way it is... moderated well, no spamming, huge ads, etc..

If you want a forum that is mostly visited by mastersmiths and such, they are out there. The ABS forum is an example and also requires membership I believe. But for the most part it is inhabited by knowledgeable makers etc. I am a member there too and have learned a lot from being there. Of course you can't advertise there really. They will put your website in links if you ask... There are even forums that concern themselves mostly with metallurgy.

Also, I pay more for my other professional memberships than this and I get no return on that other than saying I'm a member. Makes this look pretty good comparitively.

Thank you to all the true professionals and craftsmen who take the time to share your skills and help others along. I consider it a duty and an honor to pass along what I have learned so that others may achieve the same satisfaction I have recieved in this, or any task. And thank you to the mods for keeping the site clean and functioning properly. Its a thankless job, and trust me, I know what it feels like.....

Cheers. Again, just my $.02, Not trying to start anything. I deal with enough of that in my day job...

 

[Willie71]

To put this in perspective, the membership here is less than a nice block of curly koa, about the same as one tank of fuel in my car, and less than a dinner out with my wife. I spent more on DVDs to improve my sheath making.

 

[james terrio]

Please keep in mind, I have zero influence over how this forum is run, overall. I do run my own small subforum here, very much for profit, and as such I abide by the general forum-wide rules. But I am not asked - nor do I want to asked - about questions of policy.

I speak for no one but myself.

Not everyone does this for profit, James,

I'm well aware of that, Nathan. I stumbled across BladeForums many years ago when I was doing nothing more than looking for tips on how to refurbish a cherished, but neglected Buck 110 that I wanted to bring back up to snuff. At that time I had no idea about becoming a full-time knifemaker... I was simply getting ready to camping

And please read my comments knowing that I like and respect you and your work - I take no offense and I certainly mean none.

Non-profit makers and hobbyists are more than welcome to post and show their work, as are giants in the field, whom we all respect and look up to... they're just not allowed to advertise for free. What's the problem?

That's been explained a hundred times. And I wholeheartedly agree with that policy of welcoming everyone who wants to discuss, or share, or ask questions. I would still be working a terrible, soul-crushing job in a factory someplace if it wasn't for the free exchange of ideas and information I found here. I would never seek to exclude anyone from this incredible resource.

What's the problem?

Unfounded accusations are part of what got people upset about these rule clarifications in the first place.

I have yet to see an "unfounded accusation" in any of the threads addressing this topic, going back several years now. Again, what's the problem?

I stand by what I said about trolls and sneaks. There is simply no other reason to oppose this very fair-minded policy and set of rules.

 

[slamosam]

While agreeing with Spark+Mods+KMs+others about paying for KM membership to avoid forums rules violation. However non-KM contributing members may easily run afoul the rules base on Mod's interpretation.

Construe:
* Discuss as State
* Share as Show
* Ask as Leading or Rhetorical toward his/her monetizable offerings

Seem that some contributors (not/gray/guilt) paid and others might have bailed. For now, we see those paid.

Thankfully, Mods have shown high integrity and readily give benefit of doubts to every members.

That's been explained a hundred times. And I wholeheartedly agree with that policy of welcoming
everyone who wants to discuss, or share, or ask questions.

Certainly there always be a small percentage of rules breaker; bender; loopholer. Enforcing rules can be a tricky balancing act between value/info critical mass, keep reasonable barrier to entry & exit, and ultimately sustainability of BF.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I think all here will agree that I tend to err on the side of discretion. If a post is, "This one is going to the Blade Show.", then it is a selling thread and I will close or move it. If it says, "I just finished this knife and wanted to show a photo tutorial on how I did the frame handle.", then I am very happy to leave it as it is and let folks learn and discuss.

 

[silver_pilate]

Stacy, I appreciate your discretion in moderation.

James, I'm not trying to refute the rules or perpetuate an argument (though I know it seems I am), and I respect your work and your stance here as well. I'm not really that far from you. I see the need for the rules, and they are what they are. This discussion is largely philosophical at this point, because the rules are set. What I was getting at is the emotional response (i.e. bad taste in your mouth) from being told that you are advertising when that's not what you were trying to do. I see this as being accused. Whether it's the case of well known makers who are backed up for years in waiting lists and aren't looking for more clients sharing pictures of knives that were not available for sale in the first place, or guys who no longer sell knives or take orders posting helpful responses regarding knife making, it puts a burr under the saddle when someone is accused of violating a rule that they don't feel they are violating (advertising).

To clarify the latter of those two examples, my website has pictures of the work I've done in the past and has been in my sig for years. I've even linked to data sheets of various steels or pictures I host there that are helpful in answering questions. I can't even take orders through the website and even state that I don't take orders. I didn't think to take it out when my membership level decreased because I'm not selling knives and never have through the site, and I thought that was the extent of the rules. When I was told I was in violation of the rules because of the website link and advertising, it got under my skin, because I was not advertising, at least in my own mind. My thoughts were, "how can I be advertising if I'm not selling anything?" Yes, I made knives. Yes, I can answer many questions regarding knife making. In my mind, I was being forced to pay for simply the recognition that I used to make knives, not to sell knives.

Yes, I was in violation of the rules as written and interpreted by the owner and moderators, and so I had to change. I'm also man enough to admit that part of my frustration stems from a inherent and vehement dislike of perceived authority. I respect those who are truly in authority over me (if they earn or deserve it), but not those who think they are . I had to change my mindset, realizing that if I wanted to play here on the forums, I had to submit to the reality that the moderators DO have authority here, in this particular, well defined corner of the internet. I'm also immature enough to admit that I like to poke at the bears with long sticks now and then.

I'm done posting on this thread. I hope I have clarified my sentiments. The rules stand. They have been clarified, and all must abide.

--nathan

 

[Robert Dark]

I'm also man enough to admit that part of my frustration stems from a inherent and vehement dislike of perceived authority. I respect those who are truly in authority over me (if they earn or deserve it), but not those who think they are . I had to change my mindset, realizing that if I wanted to play here on the forums, I had to submit to the reality that the moderators DO have authority here, in this particular, well defined corner of the internet. I'm also immature enough to admit that I like to poke at the bears with long sticks now and then.--nathan

Know what you mean Nathan. I have had to "Bite-My-Tongue" on several occasions. I finally decided that if I wanted to play in another man's yard, I would have to abide by his rules and the interpretations of those rules by the "Appointed-Rule-Sheriffs". I learned many years ago that not every individual placed into a position of authority has the skills to deal with what they believe to be infractions of the rules. Its all about how you communicate with folks.

That said, I will hang around this wonderful forum until I can no longer abide by the rules, or the perceived interpretation of said rules.

Life is too short to let one or two misguided individuals put a burr under my saddle.

Robert

 

[Karda]

Stacy, I appreciate your discretion in moderation.

James, I'm not trying to refute the rules or perpetuate an argument (though I know it seems I am), and I respect your work and your stance here as well. I'm not really that far from you. I see the need for the rules, and they are what they are. This discussion is largely philosophical at this point, because the rules are set. What I was getting at is the emotional response (i.e. bad taste in your mouth) from being told that you are advertising when that's not what you were trying to do. I see this as being accused. Whether it's the case of well known makers who are backed up for years in waiting lists and aren't looking for more clients sharing pictures of knives that were not available for sale in the first place, or guys who no longer sell knives or take orders posting helpful responses regarding knife making, it puts a burr under the saddle when someone is accused of violating a rule that they don't feel they are violating (advertising).

To clarify the latter of those two examples, my website has pictures of the work I've done in the past and has been in my sig for years. I've even linked to data sheets of various steels or pictures I host there that are helpful in answering questions. I can't even take orders through the website and even state that I don't take orders. I didn't think to take it out when my membership level decreased because I'm not selling knives and never have through the site, and I thought that was the extent of the rules. When I was told I was in violation of the rules because of the website link and advertising, it got under my skin, because I was not advertising, at least in my own mind. My thoughts were, "how can I be advertising if I'm not selling anything?" Yes, I made knives. Yes, I can answer many questions regarding knife making. In my mind, I was being forced to pay for simply the recognition that I used to make knives, not to sell knives.

Yes, I was in violation of the rules as written and interpreted by the owner and moderators, and so I had to change. I'm also man enough to admit that part of my frustration stems from a inherent and vehement dislike of perceived authority. I respect those who are truly in authority over me (if they earn or deserve it), but not those who think they are . I had to change my mindset, realizing that if I wanted to play here on the forums, I had to submit to the reality that the moderators DO have authority here, in this particular, well defined corner of the internet. I'm also immature enough to admit that I like to poke at the bears with long sticks now and then.

I'm done posting on this thread. I hope I have clarified my sentiments. The rules stand. They have been clarified, and all must abide.

--nathan

Know what you mean Nathan. I have had to "Bite-My-Tongue" on several occasions. I finally decided that if I wanted to play in another man's yard, I would have to abide by his rules and the interpretations of those rules by the "Appointed-Rule-Sheriffs". I learned many years ago that not every individual placed into a position of authority has the skills to deal with what they believe to be infractions of the rules. Its all about how you communicate with folks.

That said, I will hang around this wonderful forum until I can no longer abide by the rules, or the perceived interpretation of said rules.

Life is too short to let one or two misguided individuals put a burr under my saddle.

Robert

It seems to myself that you both have an awful lot to say, in spite of neither of you getting warned/infracted.
I'm sure if a moderator had to speak to you it was warranted and if you got a terse response it might be because of the way you reacted and what you said in response, as your snarky statements here would imply. Always remember that life is a two way street in most cases.
The one thing you are both right about, is that whether or not you agree with the rules, or interpretations thereof..... you are bound by those rules and terms of service that you agreed to by signing up here. Those entrusted with upholding those rules...misguided in your perception or not, are not bound or here to coddle anyone. If one plays fair and by the rules, there should be no reason for accusations (or perceptions thereof) or for anyones feelings to get hurt.

 

[Robert Dark]

as your snarky statements here would imply.

Didn't mean to sound "Snarky", however, I still say its all in how one talks to people, whether here on the forum or face to face.

I don't think anyone should be "coddled". If someone is in violation, then call their hand on it. We are all individuals, and because of this, we will never agree completely with each other.

You, Sir, have a job to do as a Moderator. I don't envy you, but I appreciate what you do. I may not always agree with a Moderator's interpretation of the rules, however, I won't start a losing fight because of my views. Like I said, "I will hang around this wonderful forum until I can no longer abide by the rules, or the perceived interpretation of said rules." (Unless, of course I get kicked out for having an opinion and sometimes sharing it)