i'm fed up with sharpening, what steel holds an edge forever?

I think Dennis was pretty clear about not wanting to sharpen, not having something that is easier to sharpen.

I think the super-knife idea was a good one. Ceramic may work for him.

Another new steel from Japan is Cowry-X. It is powdered metal stainless with 3% carbon, and goes to RC 65-68. I have a Hattori Santoku in Cowry-X which I am very happy with:

bgknife1418alt1.jpg


Koji Hara uses Cowry-X:

39.jpg


as does Glenn Waters:

1999.jpg


Here's a Hattori bowie in Cowry-X

p1a.jpg


Glenn Waters also uses ZDP-189, which he describes as "ZDP-189 Hi tech stainless made by Hitachi maintains balance between its high hardness of RC 67 and its ductility. It was developed solely for the purpose of knives. It is a powdered metal, and has 3% carbon, which gives it a very high hardness and yet still remains ductile. A great knife steel but expensive. Its high hardness and strength make it great steel for working knives because It can cut through dried bamboo without marking or scratching the blade. Is recommended for heavy work like chopping and for art knives because it takes one of the best mirror polishes you can get, providing you finish it to #2,000 grit before professional air free heat treating. Has been used in Japan since around 1995. Some time in 2000 Hitachi will release a sanmai (sandwich) with ZDP-189 in the middle with ATS-55 on the outside."
 
Show Off!!!!!:eek:

Those are some fine knives. I love those Hattori Santokus.

I've never seen one of those Koji open-weave handles, pretty amazing.
 
Originally posted by swede79
So far, you've been listing stainless steels. If you don't let your knives rust, how about a good high carbon steel?[...]Also, consider getting a knife with a full convex edge. It will greatly simplify sharpening and reduce your frustration!

Sounds like he's looking for an Opinel (for newcomers, the ones with the round wooden handles).
You can get them at a lot of surplus stores, and some kitchen supply stores.
Pretty-high carbon steel (1075) with a convex edge. Sharpen with sandpaper.

Then shell out $600 for a custom knife with 420J and put it in your pocket. Take it out every once in a while to feel how hair-curlingly sharp it is. Put it back in your pocket and never cut anything with it.
Due to magical properties of the 420J, it will stay sharp for centuries.
But remember, it has to be 420J.
 
Dennis, I think you want a knife made of MPL-1, which is the most highly alloyed steel in production. MPL-1 is made by Crucible and is marketed in Europe as Supracor.

Supracor is characterized by very high corrosion- and wear resistance due to its composition: 3.75% Carbon, 24% chromium, 9% vanadium, 3.1 % molybdenum, 0.5% manganese and 0.9% silicon. Supracor at HRc 53 has a wear resistance more than 1.5 times that of S90V at HRc 59 and when Supracor is at HRc 67 the difference will be a factor 2.2, if I read the charts correctly.

The downside is that the impact strength of Supracor is only about a third that of S90V. A knife made of Supracor will cost you about 3 times as much as one made of S90V. Supracor comes only as round stock and is extremely hard to work even unhardened demanding liberal amounts of machine time and quickly wearing out the tools.

I have only read about this material, but apparently a supracor blade will hold its edge for a very, very, very long time. When the time comes to sharpen it though.......:(

As far as I know only one maker works Supracor and that is Dieter Wilhelmy in Germany. One of his small hunters will set you back more than $1.200. His website is only in German: www.wilhelmy-messer.de

More information on MPL-1 on Crucibles site: www.cruciblecompaction.com/wear.html


Regards Jan
 
If you haven't followed the links in Jan's post, they are really cool.

Here's a link to a translated version of Dieter's page on Suracor:

Dieter on Supracor

And here's a price comparison between 420V and Supracor:

Modell CPM 420V SUPRACOR
J 16 € 317,- € 1227,-
J 17 € 368,- € 1330,-
J 18 € 420,- € 1432,-

:eek:

I'm not usually a smiley person.

I've sent Dieter email to see if he has any pictures of finished Supracor blades. dwilhelmy@t-online.de.
 
Gary W. Graley :

I've also heard tell that CPM420V is about the toughest blade on earth so you may want to start there?

CPM420V is one of the more brittle cutlery steels, as are the other high wear resistance steels like CPM-10V, 15V etc. . You can't get near optimal levels of toughness, hardness and wear resistance at the same time let alone corrosion resistance. CPM-3V and CPM-1V, combine a high hardness, impact toughness, ductility, and wear resistance with 1V being softer and tougher in most respects with less wear resistance than 3V. INFI is another choice of a general all around well balanced high performance steel, but only available from Busse Combat.

Gaben :

Glenn Waters also uses ZDP-189, which he describes as "ZDP-189 Hi tech stainless made by Hitachi maintains balance between its high hardness of RC 67 and its ductility. It was developed solely for the purpose of knives. It is a powdered metal, and has 3% carbon, which gives it a very high hardness and yet still remains ductile.

That sounds close to the realm of fantasy, wonderful if it was true and not just promotional hype. What is the actual ductility value, the percentage elongation at those very high hardness levels? What is the impact toughness?

Note 1095 can easily get to 66 RC, as can the other high carbon plain carbon steels. M2 and the other high speed steels can get 66-68 RC. CPM offers a few HSS that are hardenable up to 70+ RC. None of those would be tough by any defination of course.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

An excerpt from the original question:

Originally posted by dennis75
hi there

i'm looking for the ultimate steel in terms of toughness, sharpness, STAINLESSNESS and foremost, EDGE RETENTION.
 
Most of the manufacturures sharpen their knives for a nominal fee.
" Those that can, do. Those that cannot, pay those that can to do it"
I also am a proficient knife duller. I bought a lanske sharpening kit, and can get an ok edge, but the wire guides are slightly curved. does anybody know of a more forgiving begginers system?
 
Supracor

I heard back from Dieter Wilhelmy, who sent me an article he wrote for Messer Magazin. I'll post the JPGs of that, but they are in German. I'm about half-way through translating the article.

ZDP-189 & Cowry-X

I've been frustrated trying to find out more information about these steels from Hitachi and Daido Steel. I've sent mail to Glen Waters asking him for any references, since he uses both these steels, and will post his reply once I receive it.
 
Technology

The High-End Material

Supracor - the name is descriptive. The supermaterial offers enormous abrasion resistance and can also be used for knife blades. Specialist Dieter Wilhelmy tells us what we need to know about this material.

Powder metallurgy steel has made great strides in recent years - in mechanical engineering and with high-quality knives. Most responsible for this is the American manufacturer Crucible Steel, which developed milestones like CPM 440V.

The next entwicklungsstufe(?) was CPM 420V, which possesses even better abrasion resistance with still higher amounts of carbon, vanadium and molybdenum. With a knife blade a higher Schnitthaltigkeit(?) means. Both steels just received new designations: CPM S60V and S90V.

Crucible’s flagship, however, is Supracor, as it is known in Europe, which in the USA is called CPM MPl-1. Supracor is the most highly alloyed powder metallurgy steel in the world. With a carbon content of 3.75 percent and an enormously high chrome content of 24 percent with likewise considerable vanadium and molybdenum Supracor sets yardsticks. Nearly 40 percent of the material isn’t iron. The primary carbide portion is 46 percent (CPM 440V: 24 percent). That means that nearly half of the material consists of extremely hard carbides (carbon compounds).

Already the chemical composition calls for respect. This respect grows substantially the first time you try to work on Supracor. Supracor is available only as round material (for example with a diameter of 50 millimeters); flat material is not available. Therefore flattening tires must be cut from the round material in longitudinal direction. While this sounds simple, it is extremely difficult in practice. Supracor cannot be sawed with carbide tipped saw bands. In fact Supracor has a hardness of 42 HRC in the annealed, thus unhardened, condition.

Only the wire eroding remains. With wire eroding by means of a thin wire and a tension put on funkenerosiv(?) the material is evaporated. In this fashion even the hardest materials can be cut, if they are conductive. However this procedure is not very cheap. Wire erosion machines are CNC machines and accordingly expensive. From this a high machine hour price results.

In addition this procedure takes a very long time. Example: A 230 millimeter long cut in 50-mm round material takes approximately two hours. Depending upon number cutting times result beziehugsweise thickness of the strips up to 24 hours, in order to cut only one piece of open round material. To the very expensive materials price you add enormous cut costs.

The resulting flat pieces are polished on a surface grinding machine primarily with CBN disks. Then the desired outline is roughly before-cut out-polished, and/or with a diamond disk. With a corundum friction disk it goes also, however only under substantial wear of the disk. Then the blank is continued to work on as usual at the Bandschleifer. Applies also here: With corundum volumes it goes, however the consumption of the volumes is very high.

Necessary drillings in Supracor succeed only with tungsten carbides drill, and the service life of the drills is very small also here. Also milling of Supracor with full tungsten carbide drills is extremely material intensive: The drill service life up to the wear limit (full tungsten carbide drill K 05) amounts to with one 10-mm drill and 0.5 millimeters of spantiefe only two minutes! One must clarify oneself: Supracor consists nearly to the half of carbides. The fact that thereby the tools wear very fast is clear.

In relation to these difficulties during processing the advantages of Supracor stand: A measurer from Supracor moderately on approximately 60 HRC hardened (the maximum is with 67 HRC), offers an almost unbelievable schnitthaltigkeit. Compared with a measurer from CPM 420V the abrasion resistance lies approximately twice as highly. Used by a hunter (expert), a CPM-420V-Messer can be still in working condition also after a half year. A Supracor measurer can hold the sharpness for a whole year. In practice also some Spielereien are possible: With a Supracor measurer hardened on 67 HRC at a CPM-420v blade (59 HRC) splinters were already scraped off.

The table of the manufacturer offers objective verschleisszahlen (see to box the schnitthaltigkeit). These values were determined under reproducible, standardized conditions.

A further outstanding characteristic of Supracor is the extremely high corrosion resistance. Due to the composition (the matrix holds lots of free chromium) this strength is also no miracle.

The Achilles heel of this superalloy is the small notched-bar impact-strength. It amounts to only approximately a third of CPM 420V (CPM 420V has the same notched-bar impact-strength as 1,4125 = 440C). Should one all-went with a measurer cut and not lever or similar abuse commit. Before a Supracor blade breaks, all bells in the head should ring. Differently expressed: It belongs to already a due portion of courage will to break a Supracor off blade. Naturally play also thickness and processing as well as the thermal treatment sound a large role.

Not easy is also sharpening a Supracor knife: the production of the sharpness takes place at the best korundstein current on one slowly (90 revolutions per minute), which runs additionally in a wasserbad. Functions! One does not need a diamond stone. However the abrasion at the korundstein is higher when sharpening Supracor than with all other steel, and the procedure lasts longer.

Apropos sharpness: a band sharpener is absolutely unsuitable, in order to produce at a high-quality measurer the sharpness - not only with Supracor blade. The sharpening temperatures, which thereby in the thinnest place, speak at the cut, arise, can lie far over 1000 degrees Celsius. It can come even to melting the steel. These temperatures play themselves mind you in the small one off (within the in order range), but preferentially exactly at the point of the cut - where the knife to cut is. From the enormously high temperatures - results casually expressed - alloy mixing machine, which everything else as the ideal condition of the steel represents. Then one their optimal gumption ability does not bring oneself.

Even with hand-guided whet-stones these extreme temperatures can occur. Result: Always beautifully slowly with the speed, and always well hand loops cool with water, also with!

After this digression, back to the Supracor: This material is manufactured only in relatively small quantities. That has to do with the fact that only very few economically justifiable applications exist. Differently expressed: Supracor is very expensively and very difficult to work on, and the thing makes relatively uneconomic for the industry.

In order to say it completely clearly: I personal keep at present CPM 420V in the sum of its characteristics (in addition also the price belongs) for the best cutlery steel. Supracor will remain always a Exote(?) under the cutlery steels - but a challenge for each knifemaker.
 
Comparing the edge holding, what was the hardness of the CPM-420V blade? Some cutting comparisons would be worthwhile comparing Supracor to 1095 and M2 both at 66 RC. While abrasion resistance is a factor in edge retention, if you have a high standard for sharpness, hardness can be more critical on many materials.

Interesting info, thanks for posting.

-Cliff
 
Hardness can fool you on edge holding ability. According to Crucible, CPM 9V at HRC 54 has 3 times the wear resistance of M2 at HRC 62.
Many of the very high wear resistant alloy steels achieve a lot lower maximum HRC value than the carbon steels, but they hold an edge much longer.
 
Crucible has a high speed steel, CPM Rex 121 that, in the optimum wear/stress range can be tempered out to HRC 70.5. It has 3.4% C, 4.0% Cr, 9.5% V, 10% W, 5% Mo, 9% Co, and .03% S.
Has anyone out there tried this?
With the tools I have, I will pass. This might be about as hard as you can get in steel alloys. It has very high red hardening and wear resistance is way up there.
 
Hi Gaben

My initial knowledge of Supracor comes the Messer Magazin you mention. Did Dieter have any other pics of his knives?

Regards Jan
 
shgeo :

Hardness can fool you on edge holding ability. According to Crucible, CPM 9V at HRC 54 has 3 times the wear resistance of M2 at HRC 62.

Wear resistance isn't the leading factor in edge retention in cutting many materials. In general, the higher your demands for sharpness, and the less abrasive the material, the more hardness is key. In many materials such as ropes and the like, a knife can blunt down to a few percent of opimal while suffering no significant wear, all blunting was caused by rolling - which is why steels can be of benefit. The resistance to this blunting is the strength of the material which is highly correlated to the hardness. Thus even a small change of RC can easily swamp out large changes in wear resistance.

-Cliff
 
Hi Cliff.
Your consideration is excellent.Things needed low abrasive is
industrial use like a mould,die,metal cutting tools etc.
Because extreme huge number of cutting cycle is required with comparison of knife.So in japan,low-alloy high carbon steel
is used in general.low alloy high carbon steel can be got highest hardness of only martensite matrix,if you have good
highest technology of heat treatment.If you have a chance,
Reading of book of Pickering of US steel(now USx) is recommended.So edge of samurai sword is made from low alloy high carbon steel.But these steels are easy to form stain on the surface.
Professionals like a chef of japanese dishes,meister of woodwaker and artists of classic arts,etc especially likes cutting way of those steels in Japan.Professionals of hand
makning arts have a tendency of keeping good condition of
their tools.So they have no problem of steel stain.
Shirogami steel is most difficult to get hardness.But it has
possiblity of getting highest hardness.
So japanese craftparson tries to make many cutlery in spite of making difficulty and easiness becoming stain state.

Japansteel
 
In the numerous edges I have looked at (not just limited to cutlery) it all boils down to geometry. The edge geometry, angle, honed teeth, etc., govern the ability to cut. If an edge never lost its geometry it would theoretically cut forever. Deformation, wear, toughness, and corrosion are all variables that can change the edge geometry. These variables and the many types of cutting are why there are so many alloys used in cutlery. The metallurgical reality is that no one alloy can address all of the variables.
 
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