i'm fed up with sharpening, what steel holds an edge forever?

Ed Severson, JapanSteel, and Cliff Stamp:

One thing I haven't been able to find is an explanation of what cutting actually is at a molecular level. Is there a primer on cutting physics somewhere?

Also, I've never seen an explanation of serrations, blade geometry (as opposed to edge geometry) and other basics.

And, as long as I'm asking, I've seen it asserted that layered Damascus and dendritic/cast metals have micro-serrations that improve their cutting ability. In the absence of a clear understanding of the physics of cutting, slicing, and serrations, it's hard for me to evaluate claims like that.

I am at the stage in my understanding that I would assert things like "layered Damascus will underperform a homogeneous steel in almost all ways" yet I've had people I trust say that empirically a layered blade of O-1 and L-6 significantly outperforms either of the constituent steels.

I'm frustrated by my lack of a better grounding in the fundamentals, and frustrated by my lack of progress in finding good resources to learn more. Any pointers would be appreciated.

Gabe
 
Hi gaben!
Your thinking is ordinal.
Analysis of Micro or Nano level phenomina is important.
Following opinion depends upon properties of things cut.
I think it is suitable that you will study lubrication of
fulid dinamics.
In my opinion,Cutting ability of samurai sword depend on
such a texture of forged fulid line.
Really,i am developing new blade steel by this thinking now.
But i can not say it anymore.

japansteel
 
gaben, the following is a brief overview of some of the questions you raised. Some of the details have been trimmed and simpified but the basics are as follows :

The mechanics of cutting :

This doesn't happen at a molecular level, the changes are much larger in scale. A typical edge will be on the order of a micron in thickness, which is 10^-6 m. Atoms are on the scale of 10^-10 m, ten thousand times smaller and thus the detailed interworkings on this microscopic scale can be ignored. Cutting happens on a much larger macroscopic scale and is influenced by attributes visible at the level of the naked eye and slightly under.

First off there are two broad categories of cutting, push and slice. A pure push cut is when the blade is pressed straight through material, there is no draw or travel along the edge during the cut. The cut becomes a slice when you add some draw. The more the blade is drawn and not pushed, the more it approaches a pure slice. To clarify, there is no such thing as a pure slice, every slicing cut must have some component of a push to drive it through the material, however you can have a 100% pure push cut.

Push cutting :

A blade experiences two main forces as it is pushed through material. The first is the force directly on the edge. As you start a cut the edge must break apart the material. All materials can only be stretched so far and when this is exceeded they rip , tear or burst. Sharper edges cut easier is that they induce a greater deformation. Essentially you are looking at the slopes inherent in the geometry, the more severe the angle changes the more pressure will be induced when the edge contacts the material. This is why it is easy to burst a balloon with a pin but very difficult with your finger. Look at how gradual the geometry on your finger changes (on the scale of a cm), it is a very gentle arc over a large distance, as compared to the massive change a needle point over a very short distance (a fraction of a mm, and thus 100 times smaller).


The second component of the force on the blade is the wedging of the material apart as the knife is pushed through it. This can be understood on a basic level by looking at a spring. As you stretch a spring, the more you pull it, the harder it becomes to move it further. You can therefore easily conclude the force is proportional to the distance. It is the same thing with knife edges. The thicker they are the more they have to push material out of the way so they can pass though. It isn't a directly linear relationship in knives because the force isn't constant along the blade height, in most materials it is closer to an exponential drop off, which is why the edge geometry is so critical.

There is also a slight effect of friction, but except for odd materials, this is generally not a critical effect and is usually vastly swamped by even small changes in the above.

Slices :

All edges are to some extent uneven and have teeth like a saw, these can be very small, a micron or less (CrO polished), or so coarse you can actually begin to see them at a fraction of a mm (100 grit AO belt). As you push the blade into the material, the teeth on the edge will have material trapped between them in the gullets (the blunt regions inbetween the teeth). The more coarse the edge the more material will pile up here which is why you will note that push cutting ability falls off as edges get more coarse. However if you pull on the blade this material is forced into contact with the sides of the micro-teeth which are sharp and will readily cut through it. The teeth will then drop down into fresh material, and the process repeats.

As you make an edge more coarse you can thus cut deeper on a given length of draw as the teeth sink more because they are larger. However it requires more of a push to get the teeth to sink in and it takes more force on the pull to drag them through. Thus there will be an optimal grit in between ultra fine and ultra coarse which is both relatively easy to push and pull through the material, and has teeth large enough to allow it to drop deeply. Much of these principles can be seen in action on regular saw blades. For example a fine toothed saw is very easy to pull through material and requires little down force to be applied, however it cuts slowly. A coarse tooth pattern requires more force on the push and has to be leaned on heavy to cut at maximal, but will readily out cut the finer pattern.

Blade geometry :

Gross blade geometry can be basically understood to follow the same principles of edge geometry. Edge profile is in general much more critical as the forces experienced by a knife are concentrated in that region.

Serrations :

Steve Harvey was the first to note the most important aspect of serrations which gives the greater cutting ability - the edge angle is usually one half to one quarter of the plain edge portion. The edge is also usually finished with a more coarse grit. Joe Talmadge first demonstrated in a quantitative way the extreme effect such a combined change has on the cutting ability, describing increases in slicing ability by many hundreds of percent when the edge angle is reduced and the finish made more coarse. Serrations also have a secondary aspect which greatly enhances slicing ability in an indirect way. When you slice with a plain edge you have to push down on the blade to get it to bit into the material, with a serration, because of the angle of the teeth, the same effect can be achieved in part with a pull. Because of issues with biomechanics you are *much* stronger in a pull than a push and thus it seems easier even when similar force is exerted in both cases.

Inherent aggression :

Some steels have a very nonuniform structure, either because of large clusters of segregated carbides (Boye Dendritic 440C, or ordinary D2), or an actual mixture contrast as in layered Damascus . It is true that this does make these steels more aggressive on a slice than a fine grained steel, but it is usually not significant because it is so small an effect and is easily masked by the level of finish of the edge. For example, 52100 which has a grain structure more than ten times finer than D2, will still easily out slice D2 if the 52100 edge was finished on a 600 DMT hone and the D2 on a 1200. So for the most part you can ignore such effects and just chose a suitable edge finish. There are however some interesting secondary effects though with heavy carbided steels, which may also be present in layered heavily contrasted Damascus, ref :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=214104

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226263

-Cliff
 
just a couple of things,

japansteel, thanks for your input on steel. I think Bladeforums is fortunate to have a member who works in a steel plant in Japan! Keep us informed of your new steel please :)


Gabe, as another source for cutting info, check out Leonard Lee's sharpening book. Leonard Lee is the founder of Lee Valley Tools. The whole book is a gem, but the really relevant sections here are at the back of the book. Lee had pictures taken of (I think) chisels cutting wood. It turns out that push cutting wood is controlled chipping! They calssified different kinds of chipping and show them with these awesome pictures. Do check out that book.
 
Crayola, thanks for the pointer to Leonard Lee's book. I've ordered it from Amazon.

Cliff,

Just to make sure I understand correctly, this idealized edge:

plane-edge.jpg


wouldn't cut as well as this idealized edge:

simple-serration.jpg


which wouldn't cut as well as this idealized edge:

curved-serration.jpg


and that it's simply a matter of maximixing pressure on the smallest area.
 
By accident I came upon this site:

Tech Edge by Furitechnics

It has a number of articles on knife edges that were pretty informative to me. Here's a sample article:

Knife edges under the microscope (or, Füritechnics de-mystifies knife edges)

There are a lot of ‘funny’ ideas in Australia about knife sharpening, because few have spoken to knife engineers about the subject. Füritechnics is Australia’s only knife engineering company, and part of our mission is to de-mystify a lot of the 'wild knife stories' we hear constantly. Many of the fallacies really are very basic, and easy to explain in a metallurgical/physical sense!

steelsSEM.jpg


Füritechnics’ designer, Mark Henry, analysing the cutting edges of knives with a Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM). Ongoing research includes the analysis of cutting edges of different knife materials, at different stages of wear, with different edge preparation techniques (including coarse and fine Steels). Some micrographs from Füritechnics’ SEM analysis are shown below.

steeledge200.jpg


This micrograph shows a Füri knife edge at 200x magnification. This edge has the standard factory grind, finished with 6 strokes on the oval diamond-coated Füri Steel. Note the sharp gouges produced by the diamond facets, which meet at the edge to form sharp 'saw teeth'. A standard smooth hard-chrome Steel will not produce such strong and sharp teeth.

steeledge2000.jpg


The same edge at 2000x magnification: a closer look at the 'gouges' produced by the diamond facets. The steep sides of these gouges also act as cutting teeth (not all the cutting is done by the very edge). The gouges and ridges are stronger than the teeth on the very edge, and add to the retention (life) of a sharp edge.

steeledge200w.jpg


This micrograph (200x) shows the cutting edge after the equivalent of 3000 cutting strokes on a PE cutting board (worn in the Füri wear simulation apparatus). Note the wear marks parallel to the cutting edge, and slight 'rounding' of the ridges.

steeledge2000w.jpg


A closer view of the wear marks (2000x): the wear can be seen on the tops of the ridges. This wear is quite localised, and is confined to the very tip of each ridge. The edge will take a lot more wear before the ridges are 'rounded' enough to seriously affect cutting performance.

As a result of our research, we have found that coarser-honed knife edges cut more efficiently because the small ‘saw teeth’ increase cutting efficiency whenever a forward motion is used (the most common cutting action used by professionals, particularly with Cook’s knives). CATRA (UK-based knife testing organisation) has also found that coarse-honed edges retain their sharpness for longer than fine-honed edges. The Füri knife material is uniquely suited to this coarse hone because it is tougher material than the more common CrMoV knives: the small ‘saw-teeth’ don’t break off as easily as the more brittle knife materials.

Because Füritechnics is a knife and kitchen tool engineering/design company, a very high level of expertise can be applied to finding new solutions to old problems. Such knowledge has led to the production of the revolutionary Füri knife range and Füri accessories.

The development of higher performance cook's tools is part of our mission. Producing those innovations to a very reasonable cost, and making them easily available to our customers, worldwide, is also crucial. Füritechnics is successfully achieving this mission, largely due to our design expertise. This design ability and focus is what makes Füritechnics so different to its competitors.

Some common knife sharpening fallacies include

A Steel does not sharpen a knife, it hones it
Well, I haven't yet met a person telling this story who can actually describe the physical difference between 'sharpening' and 'honing'! It seems to me that if a knife is 'blunt', then you Steel it until it becomes 'sharp', then you have just used a Steel to 'sharpen' the knife! This fallacy is partly driven by the old theory of 'sharpening' a knife on a stone (or grinding belt/wheel), then 'honing' it as fine as possible on a smooth Steel. Times change: it has been found that a fine-honed edge is not as efficient at most cutting operations (all cutting operations that involve a forward or backward motion of the blade, such as most cook's knife work) as a coarser- honed (sharpened) edge. A coarser-honed (sharpened) edge will also hold its edge for longer, particularly with a knife material that is tough (as described in the text above).

A Steel is used to 're-align the molecules' of the knife edge
Actually, molecules are much smaller than these story tellers think! A collection of atoms of various elements make the molecule of a compound, and one or more atoms of one element make a molecule of that element. A single scratch from a Steel may measure 1/100th of a millimetre across, and this may span thousands of molecules! A Steel simply makes scratches in the knife material which form many small cutting edges and 'teeth'.

A Steel 'straightens' the knife edge and 're-aligns' it
We think this is partly true, even if the story teller doesn't often understand why! It is true that Steels are useful for removing any 'burr' formed during grinding or 'stoning' a knife edge. However, once the knife has been used for some time, with or without a burr present, it is simply mechanical abrasion (with some interplay of corrosion) that erodes the sharp gouges and 'teeth' produced by the Steel (or stone, etc).

Some Steels are magnetised to 're-set' the polarity of a knife
Not all Steels are magnetised. If a knife has some magnetic polarity from using a magnetised Steel, it has absolutely no effect on the cutting of foods! This one should require no further explanation!

Hopefully the more 'scientific' and factual content here has helped dispel some of the myths you may have encountered!
 
Hi Gaben!
Your result of observation is favorite for me.
I do with such a things too.
I dislike only advertisement of cutlery.
You teach us one of important things.
Cutting performance is occured under the micro size level.
And also person feel such a good state as a beautiful.
In scientifically meaning,such a sightless things is more
important.But scientists is easy to have a mistakes that they forget micro level is not average of all of surface imfomation.
If you think so ,it is recommended that you will try to
present it by probability theory way.

Japansteel
 
Gaben, the first picture presents an edge as you noted which has very poor slicing ability, it does however have the optimal push cutting profile. The second edge has a much higher slicing ability, but will not push cut as well. The third picture is very interesting as it shows an edge which is direction biased. This blade will cut very aggressive when pulled to the left, much more so than the blade illustrated in the second picture, but will not be as aggressive going towards the right.

Some time ago when I was doing a lot of cutting examining the effect of grit on cutting ability and edge holding I also looked at biased tooth patterns. They are easy to create in any direction by how the hone is angled to the blade. You can even do very intricate effects like having the base of the blade with teeth angled towards the handle, the middle with no teeth (highly polished), and the tip with teeth runing the opposite as how they are in the choil. This blade now has a region for maximal slicing on the draw (choil), high push cutting (in the middle), and maximal cut on a stab (tip obviously). While interesting I abandoned them as functional users mainly because of the awkward nature of trying to maintain the highly specialized edges.

Some some comments on the article you included, the main problem with it is that it is not clear exactly what they mean by a steel. The "story tellers" they refer to usually used the term "steel" to mean a slick, simply short hand for a smooth steel, a butcher steel was a grooved steel. Diamond or ceramic rods are hones and not steels and are mainly abrasive whereas steels are mainly driven by deformation.

Well, I haven't yet met a person telling this story who can actually describe the physical difference between 'sharpening' and 'honing'!

In the manner referenced, sharpening was the process by which the edge was shaped and given a working finish. This edge was refined, or honed on a steel or a strop to increase the polish. With modern very fine abrasives readily available traditional steels are no longer necessary, but can be useful.

[A Steel 'straightens' the knife edge and 're-aligns' it ]

We think this is partly true, even if the story teller doesn't often understand why!

The "story tellers" knew it simply bent the steel back into line, it isn't a complicated process. This is easy to see as dents can be visible and fixed by a steel. You can also see it under a microscope readily if you look right down into an edge. It will be wavy before steeling and crisp and straight after.

It is true that Steels are useful for removing any 'burr' formed during grinding or 'stoning' a knife edge.

A smooth steel cannot do this at all. A butcher steel can if the knife is soft enough as a butcher steel is simply a file. A ceramic or diamond rod can of course remove a burr as they are abrasive hones.

However, once the knife has been used for some time, with or without a burr present, it is simply mechanical abrasion (with some interplay of corrosion) that erodes the sharp gouges and 'teeth' produced by the Steel (or stone, etc).

Wear is not the primary cause of blunting in most cases, edge wear very slowly on materials and they can be improved drastically in most cases (from under 10% to near 100%) with a few passes on a smooth steel which removes very little material at all. There is some metal lost due to adhesive wear but this isn't significant. This is also why wear resistance in steels isn't nearly as important as hardness in edge retention while cutting a lot of materials.

Interesting article.

-Cliff
 
Gaben, thanks for that article! As CLiff said, it is very interesting. I was going to raise a bunch of points, but Cliff took care of them for me- thanks for saving my typing fingers Cliff!

Gaben, you will like Leonard Lee's book. He has some great pictures in there of sharpening stones as well, done on an electron microscope. It is awesome to look at the pics of the chisel edges and look at the pics of the stones- you can really see how different materials will do different things to the steel. The first time I read the book I didn't even think of how particles in stones are bonded together, and how this could have an effect on sharpening!

I think that Lee's book definitely is a must-read chapter of the "book of sharpening", so to speak. Lee doesn't go too much into diamond stones, nor does he talk about sandpaper too much (if at all). I'd love to see some electron microscope pics of sandpaper and edges done on sandpaper! Ditto for diamonds. Hmm, maybe if we all pool our money, we can buy an electron microscope and open up the "Knife Nutt Institute-Very Excellent Studies (KNIVES for short) and spend our time experimenting, taking pics, and writing books :) We'd be the ultimane knife nutt nerds :)
 
Crayola :

I'd love to see some electron microscope pics of sandpaper ...

These are in Lee's book, on p. 57 . It would have been informative to compare the edges formed on the Mylar sandpaper as compared to the paper and cloth, as the pictures of the abrasives look very different. Similar with Diamond vs Waterstone at similar grit levels, and mono vs polycrystalline.

-Cliff
 
Wait one darn moment!

I remember seeing a photo of a knife maker who said that his type of steel could out-cut all the rest. I remember that in the photo there is this guy standing with some rope he is busy cutting after sharpening his knife just once. The pile of cut-rope shavings was about 3 feet high!


Now I don't remember who this guy was, or what type of steel he was selling, but man! Thats a lot of rope cutting without needing to be sharpened!
 
Lose the junk steel knives and learn how to sharpen your tools.

Use of a sharpmaker or edge pro should get you on the right track to keepign your knives sharp.

What you are asking is akin to a gun shooter asking someone to make a gun that never runs out of bullets in lieu of reloading. Asking the impossible and wanting something unavailable?

If you can't sharpen the cheap steels, good luck with a supersteel when it dulls.

You don't know how to do something until you learn. There are plenty of articles here and all over the web to get you up to speed on sharpening techniques and equipment.

Brownie
 
dennis,
I have an old butcher knife about 50 years old that seems to be self sharpening. The blade is a plain, high carbon steel, probably in the 1095 category. We used this in the kitchen for years until my wife decided the fancy stainless knives looked better.
I now use it for yard work, digging weeds, trimming small branches. I think I sharpened it once with a file.
Don't ask me if it's magic. I'm no expert. But maybe it's worth a try to answer your question. 1095 steel is not stainless but the hard rust film it develops is fairly protective. Sorry if I didn't help.
Cheers,
og
 
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