I'm Tired Of Technology, Make Mine On An Anvil

[Uath]

In this modern age, we are in danger of losing any individuality at all. Our popular art is produced on a computer. Music can be computer generated, or mixed from musicians sitting in separate boxes. Cu-cu clocks can be made in a Chinese factory, or by a master craftsman... who cares, all that's important is the finished product.

There's a whole lot of difference between playing "A Taste Of Honey" on a computer-controlled keyboard and playing it on a trumpet. Have you ever tried to play a trumpet?

The knife is our oldest weapon and tool. We are born soft and pink, yet with a piece of steel, we are the match of any creature on Earth. Why would you have something stamped out of sheet metal then ground and tempered by a computer? I've been watching the videos. Knives cut out by a laser robot. Knives that claim uniqueness only so far as they can be stamped out of a sheet.

There are two knives: Ones that are made on an assembly line and ones that are made on an anvil. The first will never be the second. It's all carnival hype.

Do we really need 58 hardness? What about flexibility? Do we really need brittle, brittle stainless steel that snaps like glass? Unique isn't the same thing everybody else thinks is unique. How many shapes can you cut out of sheet metal??

Do yourself a favor and get a REAL knife! Then, keep it on you.

(Viking Utility Knife, by Wulflund Forge, Czech Republic)

 

[mtangent]

I can agree with your general sentiment, but you are a too bipolar for me. There is a myriad between the two ends.
Where do you place hand ground custom knives, stock reduction, not hammered?

 

[bladeboss]

Amen, brother.
As much as I love my Sebenza and Leatherman tools, I agree with you.

 

[Armadew]

Here are a few of mine.

XVth century knife, after a model kept at the Landesmuseum Niederösterreich

Picures by the maker, Fabrice Cognot.

The first is also inspired by an original. I'll see if I can dig up some pics...

 

[Lodd]

I understand the sentiment, but I think it's a little too extreme to harken back to the dark ages immediately. I mean, we did make some improvements, right?

That said, I am not so much tired of technology, I am tired of marketing. I think the most important factor in the creation of a knife is craftsmanship. The passion for the creation of a great blade. And I don't think that using computers or new technology necessarily detracts from that. After all, a well thought out song made on a computer can be genuinely more enjoyable to listen to than some lazy chords on a guitar. (And vice versa). And it's not as if it suddenly becomes really easy to make a good knife by using a computer.

So, it is not as much technology, but more marketing that frustrates me. I am looking for a bushcrafter knife and came across the Benchmade Bushcrafter. http://www.benchmade.com/products/162. The
"red vulcanized spacer held together with pressed titanium tubes" made my common sense tingle. Now, I may be wrong, but I don't see the added value of them and it comes across as something that is merely there for marketing purposes. That's dangerous territory Benchmade is treading there, because that way Gerber lies.

So now I am looking at the Bark River Bushcrafter, which seems a straightforward bushcrafting knife with more of a focus on just delivering the best knife possible.

What do others think about this?

 

[Buffalohump]

Technology is a double edged sword to be sure and this is a very interesting topic. I think in many instances you are right BUT with knives I feel technology and more importantly innovation does help to make things better. Often technology and innovation go hand in hand. I refer particularly to the quality of steel (and hardware) that we can now enjoy and the precision that technology introduces to the knife-making process. This is critical, esp when it comes to folders.

Yes we dont NEED all those things to produce a knife that will cut stuff but why not enjoy it? When I look at a knife like a Benchmade Ritter Griptilian I always think - what a marvel of technology. Compared to a slipjoint it is leagues ahead in terms of pure useability. No doubt the traditionalists would disagree but why else come to a forum if not to expose yourself to conflicting points of view?

In many cases technology is a pain in the ass and creates unnecessary waste and distractions but in the case of knives I think we have benefited enormously from it.

 

[marcinek]

Why go with the steel then? That is taking advantage of modern technology. "Carnival hype" you called it.

If you were really going old school you would have it made of copper or bronze.

Seems you want to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[mqqn]

In this modern age, we are in danger of losing any individuality [snip...]

[/snip]
Do yourself a favor and get a REAL knife! Then, keep it on you.

(Viking Utility Knife, by Wulflund Forge, Czech Republic)

You whippersnappers and your steel "tek no lodgie", what's all this "smelting" and "forging" when you can pick up a rock and knap out a fine blade.

(cool looking Wulflund - thanks for the picture)

best

mqqn

 

[jakemex]

Technology advances... You want to return to an older technology you prefer.

Enjoy your relaxation, while watching your preferred technology create an object of your pleasure and desire. Glad we are individuals and have a choice!

 

[asdf12345]

I agree with you, but I think improvements matter to a degree and so does the technology that makes those improvements possible.

That's why I own knives made in the early to mid 90s. At that point, knifemaking and knife technology had progressed to the point where a safe, sturdy and precise liner lock could be made, blades were ground for precision cutting and ease of sharpening, steel was wear resistant enough to hold an edge, tough enough to avoid chipping and snapping, and heat treating was down to a precise science.

But it was also a time when everything was being done by hand as the newest technologies were not available to these knifemakers.

In recent years, even some of the old school makers, in search of convenience, precision and ease, have turned to wire EDM, laser or waterjet to cut out their blanks. And the widespread availability of NC technology has enabled knifemakers to churn out framelocks by the hundreds. While this results in a more refined end product, it also results in a loss of individuality and the value of hours upon hours of work to make great fit and finish possible solely by hand.

 

[G. Scott H.]

If you were really going old school you would have it made of copper or bronze.

Bah! Copper and bronze are too high tech for my taste. As my great great great great great great great grandpappy once said, "Wooooo! Look at ol' fancy pants Otzi over there with his highfalutin copper axe! Damn spoiled kids these days with all their fancy technology and no appreciation for a good chunk of knapped obsidian!":grumpy:

Really, though, I like it all, from knapped obsidian or flint to the latest technological marvels of cutlery. It's all relative, too. A knapped blade was as high tech to people of the Stone Age as the latest laser cut blade is to us today. Some people only dig old tech, while others only want the latest and greatest. That's cool if it works for them, but I've never felt an urge to limit myself in that way. I love variety. :thumbup:

 

[slorenzo]

Don't see why you can't like both, I certainly do!

Here is one of my forged knives.

 

[Akcir]

I appreciate hand made craftsmanship, but I also appreciate modern performance. You pretty much have to pick and choose according to your needs . By the way, if you hate technology, you should have started this thread on an animal skin with charcoal.

 

[sideways]

You can't roll back technology.

Progress happens with or without you.

The Luddites lost.

“The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.”

― J.R.R. Tolkien,

 

[zhyla]

I'm tempted to CNC knives that look like they've veen crudely forged like the OP's example. And then sell it to him. And then show him a video of a robot making it. Except by video I guess I mean he little flip books they used before movies.

You can forge fine looking knives that don't look crude. Most forged blades look as fancy as other knives. How is that a lesser technology?

 

[The Zieg]

Don't see why you can't like both, I certainly do!

Here is one of my forged knives.

Tell me about this knife!

I'm a sometimes Luddite, so I think I get what the OP is after. I have a rather old-fashioned career, myself, as a horse trainer and riding instructor in a very specific, pre-industrial lineage of horsemanship. For me the issue is character. I want my knives to have some individuality, some unevenness here and there that indicates it was made by a human making decisions based on the characteristics of the materials. When my father saw my Roselli vaarinpuukko he thought it looked like a prison shiv. But his only experience of knives was of perfect laser-cut kitchen cutlery and stamped-out SAKs. That's cool, I have those, too (and love them!), but I love my vaarinpuukko! Think I'll carry it today while I work an imperfect, character-infused, uneven horse.

Zieg

 

[DAVE_M]

It can be forged and not be crude. To each his own. Personally, I don't want a prehistoric knife like the OP posted.

Made by one of our own, here.

 

[slorenzo]

The knife is 1095 laminated steel, full flat grind, copper, antler, and walnut for the handle. 3.75 inch blade.

 

[jackknife]

I'm about as old school as they come. In fact, I can actually class myself as a technophobe in many areas. I stayed away from computers until both my better half and I were retired, and she practically foxed me at gun point to sit down at her computer and browse a knife forum she found. I used a revolver my whole life, and it wasn't until 2001 that I bought my first truck with an automatic tranny since my right rotator cuff got trashed and needed a major surgery to re-do. To top it off, knife smith Bill Moran, was my friend for 40 years. Got the picture?

So, having said all that, here's what I found out. Technoligy is g rest, and advices are what keeps us moving forward. Jet engines on aircraft provided safer transport than the old reciprocating piston engines that failed much more regularly. They go thousands of hours instead of hundreds. Metallic cartridge firearms were a huge advancement over blackpowder muzzle loads. And modern made factory knives are way way superior to what the village blacksmith m=pounded out on an anvil in the 1800's. The forged blade is soooo over hyped, it's a little ridiculous. Knives used to be made that way because most of the available steel wasn't worth spit. It was erratic and dirty, full if impurities. It had to worked on an anvil because it was junk.

With the invention of the Bessemer furnace, and advances in metallurgy, steel can now be made by a recipe to very very exacting standards. You can taylor the steel for special uses, and the steel coming out of the mills now is cleaner than ever before from the junk and impurities that used to be in it.

Stamped out of sheet metal? Bob Loveless used "sheet metal" for his knives, ground to shape out of a sawn black. Is Bob Loveless's knives junk? No, they got a rep because he made very very good knives, out of a very very good steel that would go through the job of field dressing that opening day buck and still shave arm hair.

Buck knives made out of "sheet metal"?

Buck knives are stamped pout of a sheet of steel they get from the Universal Cyclops Mill in Cleveland Ohio. The blades are then ground to shape and given a heat treat recipe set up by Paul Bos, and as a result, you can walk into any Dick's, Walmart, or other sporting goods store and by a knife that an 1800's mountain man would kill you for. They are surely better than any bronze age warrior from the time of Hector would have had.

Somethings are good, but overblown. We're living in an age where the common man can get an object as good as any high born noblemen in another age. Technology has given us the ability to make things better and cheaper at the same time. Looking back is good, but take off the rose colored glasses first. I'm old enough to have lived it, and I can tell you that you all have better stuff now than when I was a kid. Knives, guns, cars, whatever. The old cars were junk, that by 50 thousand miles needed a little work, and by 75 thousand needed a top end job. By 100 thousand they were in junk yard. Tires lasted 10 thousand miles, now they go 40 thousand with no problem. And a big box store knife now is better than what the village blacksmith forged out long ago. You don't realize that there was good and bad blacksmiths. There was no shortage of smiths who made out like they knew what they were doing, but really were an idiot. There many bad knives floating around. But modern technology has given us Consistency in the steel. Factor in that production consistency with the exact formula in the smelting of the modern steels, and you end up with a far better product than even a half a century ago. Don't even look back a century and more.

Do you drive a Ford model T? Fly someplace on an old DC3? Shoot civil war rifled musket? Use a copper age knife? No, of course not. I've got a Toyota truck outside that is far better than any of the cars when I was acid, and I've just sold off my old .38 revolver for a modern Glock 9mm that is more accurate, lighter weight, and more rounds on hand, and just as reliable. And I know that knife in my pocket is better than they had in the 1950's.

Forged knives are very nice as art form, and I like them. But to refer to the modern stamped out blades as "Sheet metal" is plain foolish. You're painting yourself into a corner.

 

[arrowhd]

I'm about as old school as they come. In fact, I can actually class myself as a technophobe in many areas. I stayed away from computers until both my better half and I were retired, and she practically foxed me at gun point to sit down at her computer and browse a knife forum she found. I used a revolver my whole life, and it wasn't until 2001 that I bought my first truck with an automatic tranny since my right rotator cuff got trashed and needed a major surgery to re-do. To top it off, knife smith Bill Moran, was my friend for 40 years. Got the picture?

So, having said all that, here's what I found out. Technoligy is g rest, and advices are what keeps us moving forward. Jet engines on aircraft provided safer transport than the old reciprocating piston engines that failed much more regularly. They go thousands of hours instead of hundreds. Metallic cartridge firearms were a huge advancement over blackpowder muzzle loads. And modern made factory knives are way way superior to what the village blacksmith m=pounded out on an anvil in the 1800's. The forged blade is soooo over hyped, it's a little ridiculous. Knives used to be made that way because most of the available steel wasn't worth spit. It was erratic and dirty, full if impurities. It had to worked on an anvil because it was junk.

With the invention of the Bessemer furnace, and advances in metallurgy, steel can now be made by a recipe to very very exacting standards. You can taylor the steel for special uses, and the steel coming out of the mills now is cleaner than ever before from the junk and impurities that used to be in it.

Stamped out of sheet metal? Bob Loveless used "sheet metal" for his knives, ground to shape out of a sawn black. Is Bob Loveless's knives junk? No, they got a rep because he made very very good knives, out of a very very good steel that would go through the job of field dressing that opening day buck and still shave arm hair.

Buck knives made out of "sheet metal"?

Buck knives are stamped pout of a sheet of steel they get from the Universal Cyclops Mill in Cleveland Ohio. The blades are then ground to shape and given a heat treat recipe set up by Paul Bos, and as a result, you can walk into any Dick's, Walmart, or other sporting goods store and by a knife that an 1800's mountain man would kill you for. They are surely better than any bronze age warrior from the time of Hector would have had.

Somethings are good, but overblown. We're living in an age where the common man can get an object as good as any high born noblemen in another age. Technology has given us the ability to make things better and cheaper at the same time. Looking back is good, but take off the rose colored glasses first. I'm old enough to have lived it, and I can tell you that you all have better stuff now than when I was a kid. Knives, guns, cars, whatever. The old cars were junk, that by 50 thousand miles needed a little work, and by 75 thousand needed a top end job. By 100 thousand they were in junk yard. Tires lasted 10 thousand miles, now they go 40 thousand with no problem. And a big box store knife now is better than what the village blacksmith forged out long ago. You don't realize that there was good and bad blacksmiths. There was no shortage of smiths who made out like they knew what they were doing, but really were an idiot. There many bad knives floating around. But modern technology has given us Consistency in the steel. Factor in that production consistency with the exact formula in the smelting of the modern steels, and you end up with a far better product than even a half a century ago. Don't even look back a century and more.

Do you drive a Ford model T? Fly someplace on an old DC3? Shoot civil war rifled musket? Use a copper age knife? No, of course not. I've got a Toyota truck outside that is far better than any of the cars when I was acid, and I've just sold off my old .38 revolver for a modern Glock 9mm that is more accurate, lighter weight, and more rounds on hand, and just as reliable. And I know that knife in my pocket is better than they had in the 1950's.

Forged knives are very nice as art form, and I like them. But to refer to the modern stamped out blades as "Sheet metal" is plain foolish. You're painting yourself into a corner.

Very well said sir. Just about exactly what I was thinking.