IMPORTANT: New Classifieds Section, and the For Sale Forums

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I agree with Dennis about 1SKS. I've had dealers tell how much they've been hurt by 1SKS already. I have to admit. I would have never gone to some of these dealers if Bladeforums didn't exist. This is where I first learned about them not to mention that they are a great source of information. This is a ethical issue as well business. Mike and Spark, bet you didn't realize the can of worms this opened up did you?
smile.gif
I'm just a knife nut, not a dealer, but as a consumer, I thought I'd say something. Not to mention, as I said above, I'm a computer engineer so I know where y'all are coming from (cost and time, ugh). Either way, I'm behind y'all. Lewis, I was one of those bladites that was around from Recdot knives! Thank god for Bladeforums.

Keep it sharp...




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MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY
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Fear the man that owns only one rifle,
he likely knows how to use it.
- Anonymous
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Ben Lee
Computer Science
AOL IM: MSURifleman
www2.netdoor.com/~rifleman
www2.msstate.edu/~brl2
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John Hollister makes a good point. I think I was more upset by Spark's post asking for help to decide what to do, when it was clear that he was going to charge members to post knives for sale, no matter what. (The $20K software was already up and running)

I have no problem with the reasonable fee (any takers for the bet: "Will increase... Within the year..."), just a problem the thread Spark ran asking for suggestons after he had already spent 20K on software. If any one believes that they really cared what we thought after they spent that kind of money, there is a bridge in Brooklyn for sale... (Mike wrote:I have to start making money before I can put more into this site. The auction software and the classifieds cost over $20K and that figure does not include the many hours it has taken to put this together.)

Any math majors out there??? Let's see if we can figure this out together. Spark and Mike say they put $30,000 into this site in the last 2 years and say they are loosing money. They also list 28 advertisers ($50 a month per equals $1400 per month or $16,800 per year) There seems to be a break even point point in there somewhere.
Now Mike has just spent $20K on more software, because "a few people seem to be abusing this".

All I object to is that these guys are crying the blues over the money they are loosing, while the curent "loss" is more the cost of the new software that they bought.... to make money off of the members. Members are the reason that advertisers pay. (Any one ever hear of ratings???) This is why I objected to the different deadlines for dealers as opposed to Knives for Sale....

Spark, why not make the cutoff date the same for all members, including dealers. The members are the reason that the dealers paid in the first place....

Michael



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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
Mike, Spark Best of luck with this venture. I hope it returns a decent profit for you.
You certainly deserve it.
It's sure going to hurt the dealers to pay a buck to place an ad. Of course if the idiots weren't selling for a dollar above cost it wouldn't matter much. ;-)
 
Mike & Spark,

I think that when you look at the big picture, and more than a few months down the road, you have made a reasonable decision. The "For Trade" forum should probably not have a fee, but that's your call.

There are some folks that are going to be left out of the loop as it stands now, though. First there are those that are absolutely unable to obtain a credit card. The debit cards also charge a fee for use, as well as a maintenance fee. That would be tacked onto whatever else was paid. There are some of the Fundamental Christian persuasion that believe these cards are evil and refuse to use them on religious grounds. And some folks just pay cash for everything. So, for those people, some arrangement should be made to accept Money Orders, etc. I don't fall into any of these categories, but I thought it worth mentioning. By the way, you can really hurt yourself falling into one of those things.

I guess the best thing to do is to wait and see what happens with all this. Good luck.

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Dave
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Attention: Some assembly may be required. Batteries not included.
 
The solution is simple and therefore will most likely work. Prices seem fair.

I'd like to see a link to all knife related adds at once. An empty search will yield the same result, but neverthless an explicit link would be nice. Just used to see everything at once so far
wink.gif
.

One question though. Why selling BM730, BM730S and BM730SBT in one post should be favored versus selling, say, BM710, Emerson Commander and CRKT Apache in one post? Or did I misunderstand something?

Kris
 
Columbo,

Good points you make I'm not to religeous however if I have to send a money order from Holland to the US it will cost me about 20 Dutch guilders (about $8) to send the $1.49 so I'm out of luck I guess PLUS it takes 4 weeks minimum to get there as we are not allowed to send the money order ourselves or postal services do it.

I would be interested to see in the coming months if this paying for an add decission will have an effect on the number adds and ultimately of the number of people visiting BF.

I will keep on visiting BF as it has become a source of new friends and exchange of knowledge.
I won't be posting anything in the FS/FT anymore one of the reasons see above the other one with the prices I used to asked in the past I can't afford to post 10 times payed and sell only one of those 10 times something.

I hope that this change in the BF will keep it going for ages to come and that Mike and Spark will eventually see their $50,000 investment (without counting manhours) back.

Best scouting wishes from Holland,

Bagheera

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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 05-25-2000).]
 
Mike and Spark (and whoever else will listen),

I'm very new here, haven't bought or sold anything. But I have learned more about knives in the last two weeks than I have in the last two years. I thank all of you for that and look forward to more of the same in the future.

To those who feel like the community or family feel of BF is going to change- I see that community feel as coming from the posts people make, the discussion we have. Those who think the nature of BF will completely change must be here to sell knives and nothing else. The rest of the site is the same as it has always been. This change might not affect me at all.

BF is a great place that I am very thankful for, and I would hate to see it go away; if people have to pay a little bit in order to make a lot more, I see that as a good deal; and if that's what's necessary to keep BF open, I'm behind it all the way. I really don't see what so many people are bitching about.

Mike and Spark, you run a great site and whatever you have to do to keep going - go ahead. If you can make a buck - you deserve it. Whatever you decide, I'm behind you all the way. Don't let the detractors get you down, most of us are right here with you (Mike & Spark). Remember people who are pissed are a lot more likely to speak up than people who are happy or people who don't care. Don't let the *******s get to ya.

Thank you very much,
I expect to be around for a very long time,

Jason

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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra
 
Hi Spark,

I guess I'm screwed. I'm in the process of getting rid of ALL my credit cards.

I understand what you're going thru and conmiserate but I really can't help but feel a little shafted. Your suggestion of getting a credit card is fine for those who don't have one, but I'm consolidating bills and find I'm not going to use cards unless it's an emergency. The idea is to create LESS debt. It doesn't seem quite fair to folks trying to get ahead to be penalized. Can't really say that using BladeForums is an emergency can I?

This has been a fun and stress reliving thing for me. I'm not going to put any more stress on my life than I need too, so it looks like I'm not going to be able to do a whole lot more on this site.

It was great while it lasted! I'm sorry it had to change to exclude me and other like me. I'll have to go to the competition now, which I have been avoiding out of faithfullness. I guess being faithfull was futile too.

Vince

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Stay sharp and be Safe!
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That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche

[This message has been edited by V.Oller (edited 05-25-2000).]
 
Those of you without credit cards can always sign up for an X.com account like TomW suggested. The parent company of Paypal, you just write an echeck and the funds are taken out of your checking account, put into your X.com debit card... which allows you to use the classifieds.

For those of you consolidating your credit cards or with bad credit, if you have a checking account, this is a perfect solution, and unlike a credit card you don't have to worry about spending what you don't have.

This sounds like a solution to me...

For those of you overseas, you if you have a Visa / MC (and soon AMEX and Discover), you can go ahead with your classifieds now... unlike where we are shipping products overseas, this is a service, which gives us more recourse when dealing with chargebacks.

I'm reading back thrgouh the other responses now.... I'll reply on them in a few.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
The owner(s) of this site have the right to manage it as they see fit. I have no problem with capitalism, I am an American. That is the basis of this country, not freedom as we are taught in school. The changes made here are business decisions, and I am not a voting member in the business, so I won't waste your time or mine trying to tell you how I think you should run your business.

But to everyone here who cannot take suggestions or opinions of the ones who do not like the business decision, just be careful that you do not one day disagree with the majority. Else you might be Savitar, or some of the others who are being ridiculed for their opinions.

Once I ostracize people for their opinions, no matter the level of validity or finesse of presentation, I begin the witch hunt. And once I argue at the level of people who are lashing out because they do not think things are fair, then I not only give validity to their arguement, but I also show that I am not as sure of myself as I purport to be.

I like this site. I don't always like what goes on here. I especially don't like it when I see mob rule against the opinions of a few members who might choose to voice their opinions more loudly than others. If no one ever spoke out, then there would be no freedom in this world. So praise to the champions who speak their mind. And praise to the fellows who provide havens like this for people to come together and realize that none of us is so different.

Brandon

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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Elvislives-

I'm not ridiculing Savitar for his opinions, but for the childish way in which he and others are expressing them. Seems to me that a lot of the problems people have with this change is that now they don't get something for free any longer - and they feel 'entitled' to it for free.

I have a SERIOUS problem with anyone feeling entitled to anything - I work damn hard and make a good living; and the US Government takes, ultimately, almost 50% of it away from me - to give to people who aren't working as hard as me, and who feel that they're entitled to MY money.

I see the same thing happening here to Mike and Spark. They're working their a$$es off to keep this place together, and people are complaining that it's gonna cost them a WHOLE DOLLAR to list a knife for sale? Geez.

I've sold over 4000 items at ebay in the last year, and every one of them cost me more than $10 to list and sell, after factoring commissions and listing fees. You don't hear me complaining that I've paid ebay $40k do you? No, because advertising is not a cost, it's an investment. Anyone who thinks they can run a business and earn a living without investing in advertising is either delusional or inexperienced or both.

All I hear Savitar doing is complaining and keeping his entitlement mentality without critically thinking through the issues here. Sloppy thinking is my second biggest peeve in life - because sloppy thinking is what leads to an entitlement mentality, as well as fundamentalism, narrow-mindedness, racism, corruption and many other evils.

Nothing's free in life. You're gonna pay one way or another.
 
Eric R-

I don't mind a good debate, I'll clarify a bit:

Savitar is the only example I used, but his is not the only opinion that was ridiculed. Mike said it himself, the way in which this was all presented left many people feeling slighted. I don't think Savitar presented himself in the best way, but he is entitled to his opinions. And the backlash from Spark, and others, only gave creedence to his statements.

Again, there are many others in this thread, and I'll bet 10x + as many who will not post, who felt like after supporting this site to get it to 6K members they were asked for opinions that really didn't seem to matter. Might not be the case, but the perception is that way. Perception is king. People go based upon their insticts.

I don't believe the money is the issue. Take your example, you paid $40K in fees to eBay? A perception might be "Wow, that's a lot of money, eBay sucks for taking that much money". Another perception might be "Wow, that guy must've made a fortune to have paid that much in fees!". Is either perception wrong? The reality might be different, but the perception is still valid.

I'm not hanging my hat on Savitar, only the way he was crucified. There are many children on these forums, and they sometimes act like children. Some of them are even the age of children, and some are not. You will always have complainers who do not present themselves as you would have it, but many times they are echoing the opinions of others who, although more eloquent, do not take the initiative to voice their opinions.

As far as the entitlement issue, I refer back to capitalism. This system creates the situation you speak of. It is a societal woe, and I am not a bleeding heart. The fact that the government takes 50% of your money is as much the result of poor administration as it is these "freeloaders" waiting for their entitlement. The fact that public education in this country is as poor as any industrialized nation is as much to blame for the poor in our society as lack of motivation. In fact, if all of the lower class people in America suddenly got motivated to work hard and move up in the world a Big Mac would cost $30, and that is where the other 50% of our money would go.

My perception is that many people thought that by suggesting ways to keep dealers from posting in the for sale forum they might make a difference in a place they enjoy spending time. And I perceive that when this whole Classifieds/Auction thing was unveiled, they realized that unless their suggestion was to start a Classifieds/Auction feature, that they were discounted. There were a good number of plausible and workable ideas in that previous thread, but this is the answer that was chosen. Some people don't like it, doesn't mean they don't like this place. Savitar just chose a bad way to present his dislike, but it doesn't make him a monster.

Still posting, still buying, possibly selling,

Brandon

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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Brandon-

You make your points most eloquently, and I have to agree with you on most of them.

Fact of the matter is, as far as ebay is concerned (or any advertising venue, for that matter), it's just a cost of doing business, like rent, phones, insurance, etc. If I weren't making a profit on that money, I'd spend it somewhere where I would. So I don't grudge ebay one penny of it. Should their rates become excessive, someone else will pop up who will provide the same service for less - capitalism is wonderfully self-regulating in that way.

I never called or intended for Savitar to be perceived as a 'monster,' only wanted to point out that he was whining and repeating the same point over and over and over again - without acknowledging that Spark and Mike may have some validity to their case. He has been presenting himself in a most childlike manner - 'mine, mine, mine.'

As far as perception goes, I agree with you 100%. Perception is king in every endeavour. Spark and Mike mismanaged this aspect of their changes, regardless of their motives. I tend to be more forgiving of things like this than many though. I concur that with very small changes in the way this has been presented, much of this tempest would have remained confined to the teapot where it belongs.

That said however, all this histrionic hand-wringing is STILL only over whether it costs me a buck to list my $100-300 blade. I think that's the most reasonable offer I've ever seen. I personally don't believe this can offset much of the time and dollar investment these guys are running here, but I'm willing to pony it up when or if I decide to part with one of my steel children.

For goodness sake, I can't purchase a gallon of gas for a buck anymore, let alone an ad on a site with thousands and thousands of potential purchasers, self-selected by hobby. The same sale on ebay will cost a buck or so, PLUS ebay's percentage, PLUS the extra $15 if I want it featured - and the audience, while an order of magnitude larger, isn't nearly so focussed as this one.
 
No, Savitar was wrong, and 100% wrong, and was combative about it to boot.

Emailing lists will not work. Period. End of discussion. We typically have 300 active threads here today, and over 1000 new posts per day. Would you want 1000 emails in your inbox, every day? I didn't think so. That's why Web Based discussions are better - you read what you want and don't have to download the rest.

Is he entitled to his opinion? Yes. Was what he offered a viable solution? Not hardly - it was ridiculous, and every post he made was looking for a fight.

Regarding the suggestions we did get for the Individual forum, IMHO none of them was worth the amount of trouble it would cause and would increase not decrease the amount of managing we'd have to do. Let's look at them -
  • Moderators - Can of worms waiting to happen. Last thing we need are for sale posts disappearing or being throttled because someone thinks someone is a dealer. Plus, who's going to keep a close eye on it, especially since it'd be more work than any other forum, including this one?
  • Limiting Posts Sorry, but I don't want to put a muzzle on just how many posts a person can and can't make per day / week / ever. Besides, who's going to count them? I think it's much more fair to use the method we have in place now, where you only pay for the amount of ads you place.
  • Monitoring just who is and isn't a dealer Again, another can of worms waiting to happen.
  • Self Policing Wasn't working already, because we had dealers in there selling as individuals.

So, you can see my frustration, and my reasoning for thinking the solution we've implemented is better - no matter how many rules you set up, there's always going to be an exception. It's better to have the dealers, makers, and members all putting a small, extremely reasonable amount in which is commiserate with the amount that they place items up for sale.

Regarding the knife limit per ad question above, I'm not really sure what the best way to handle it would be... I agree that it doesn't really make sense to allow 4 variations but only 1 model... I'll have to think about that...

Ideally, we want to see ads for products in the right subcategories. IE, not mixing folders & fixedblades together. The thing that's tricky is... what are you going to put in the price field in the classifieds if you have several knives in the same ad? People searching by price aren't going to be finding your ad... which could cost you the sale.

I think that we'd be best served by setting an "upper limit" on knives that you can put in one ad. I'm open to suggestions. If you want to go hog wild and toss everything under the sun in, again, you may just be hurting yourself...

Another thing to remember is that you can change your ad at will when you've posted it (for the duration of the ad)... which means that after you've sold one or two of the knives, you can always swap them out for 1 or 2 others... and with AutoNotify, you may have added just what someone else is looking for.

Spark

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind as well, is that after you've made 1 ad, the pricing drops to as low as $1 per ad you make - I just wanted to reemphasize that.

This truly is a bargain folks. I know that everyone wants everything for free when at all possible (I'm that way myself), but of all of the possible solutions, this seems to be the most equitable for everyone because it doesn't single out any group, and helps the site as a whole.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Originally posted by C4:
Now Mike has just spent $20K on more software, because "a few people seem to be abusing this".
Click to expand...

Actually, he said the classified software was only $1K of the $20K. The rest is for future upgrades...

Ryan



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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Eric-

You are a gentleman, and I wasn't pointing a finger at you, or anyone in particular, with the monster comment. Spark is right, he was looking for a fight, but my comments were aimed at what I believe was his motivation. It doesn't make what he did right, and it doesn't justify the backlash either.

Spark-

I support this 100%. I know you guys work hard, I see the hours of your posts. I can't imagine the balancing act you have to perform to be fair, yet try to become profitable. I might do things differntly, but I might not be as successful either. This is a close knit industry, as are many niche industries like this, and choosing which toes to avoid and which you have to step on must take a great deal of thought.

I am glad to be here. I will stay here. I hope others can put aside their differences of opinion and join those who've already commmitted to continuing this great community. I've met some very nice people here, and I hope to keep going.

Brandon

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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Regarding the perception issues, Mike and I both knew that going into this we'd take flack, no matter what our decision was. Like whoever said it above - if there was a manual for this, we'd be millionaires, right?

Our primary concern is providing the best service possible out there.

I know the perception may be that everything is a free ride that can last forever and because you don't see a problem, there couldn't possibly be one, so any changes that inconvenience you in any way shape or form must have some sort of greed or malice behind them. That is not the case.

Like I said before, if it wasn't for 1SKS opening, BladeForums.com would have closed in February. The Costs prior to our buying the Auctions and Classifieds were over $30,000 in software, hardware, bandwidth, etc (not including labor). The Auctions cost another $20,000. The Classifieds are another $1000. It's not cheap. But, unless you are paying for it yourself, you percieve it as being free, right?

Let's look at the T-1 line, or when the server goes down. You don't perceive me working behind the scenes to bring the site back up, or working out connectivity and networking issues, you just know that either you can't read about your favorite knives or can't get to the server, or it's really slow and you don't get to read quickly... Know what I mean?

THere's always stuff that you don't see. And we're always trying to make sure that everyone is well served. But perceptions can be misleading... and sometimes if something is repeated enough, people start to believe it, even if the perception is untrue.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 05-25-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Spark:
Like I said before, if it wasn't for 1SKS opening, BladeForums.com would have closed in February.
Click to expand...


Reality. Some times that's what's necessary to give perceptions a slap in the face.

Brandon


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I've got the schizophrenic blues
No I don't
Yes I do...
 
Hi again Spark,

I just want to go on the record here that I'm not slamming you or the Fourums.

Am I a little upset? Yes, but just a little.

I will investigate X.com and discuss it with my wife. I know I'm gonna get some flak for this but, my wife, the bookkeeper of the family and a comptroller in real life, is the one who keeps the family books.

She is MUCH better at dealing with money than I am and I'm not afraid or ashamed to admit it. I'm glad someone in the family is! She and I are a bit leary of using online paying.

You see we have, unfortunately, in the past been "taken" online. It wasn't a really large amount, but it still hurt. So needless to say, we've been avoiding doing this.

I am not against ANYone making money. This forum venue is a great thing and together all of us have come a long way with this. Change can be painful and people usually avoid pain. Can't blame them, either.

I'll support you on this change even if I can no longer participate in it, simply because we (knife people) all need to hang together or we'll certainly all hang apart.
Strength in numbers, and that we have!

Regards,

Vince


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Stay sharp and be Safe!
------- ---- ---------
That which does not kill us only makes us stronger.
F.W. Nietzche
 
I have ues x.com for about 5 month now. great company and my credit sucks( pardon my french) Pay pal is a good company that makes internet cash exchange easy and safe. Every member should be signed up for pay pal and x.com for sales. no wait for the check in the mail to get lost and makers can verify transfer and ship faster.

Sorry this is not meant to be an advertisement fot them.

thats my .50
 
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