IMPORTANT: New Classifieds Section, and the For Sale Forums

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As a regular buyer/seller/trader on BF, I would like to share my initial thoughts on the upcoming changes. First, some positive comments & observations:
  • The listing fee is reasonable both in concept & in terms of the amount to be charged.
  • It resolves the inequity to both BF & advertising dealers of having quasi-dealers post for free in the individual FS forum.
  • It provides a needed source of revenue to BF.

Next, some questions -- Does the software have the ability for…
  • a buyer/seller rating system?
  • shipping terms & charges to be specified up front as a required field?
  • requiring buyer registration?
  • limiting posts by both sellers & respondents (i.e., banning members from using the system)?

The Access Agreement seems to provide the necessary legal protection that BF would want in running such a service. However, what I don't see being provided is protection/guidance for buyers & sellers. With this in mind, I have a few suggestions:
  • Incorporate some form of Buyer/Seller Guidelines such as I had recently drafted.
  • Enable a buyer/seller rating system (see question above).
  • Disable the "private messaging" feature. (IMO, this is a very bad idea. As a seller, I want to know with whom I am corresponding. Although there was only one negative incident -- and that as a buyer -- which I felt was worthy of mention in the GBU forum (MaxPower), there are some folks that I would prefer not to do business with again because of past issues such as very late payment, changing mind after committing to deal, etc.)

From an ease of administration standpoint, I suggest that a one item per ad limit be imposed. Yes, it will be more costly for buyers to list items. However, as currently outlined, I don't see anything that would prevent an ad from pointing someone to another site, such as a PhotoPoint FS album, where multiple items are listed FS.

Finally, and no offense intended, I just have to say that I do not see this change as being for the direct benefit of the members. I am not saying that is being done to our detriment -- the amount of money involved is relatively miniscule. However, as others have said, let's not try to cloak this as something that it is not. As I said at the onset, it solves the problem of some dealers posting free while others who follow the rules have to pay -- a good thing. It brings in revenue to help offset the expense of running this place -- also a good thing. I see nothing wrong with running classifieds as a commercial venture. The new software has some neat features but seems to be missing others. Unless I'm missing something, however, I simply don't see major benefits to individual buyers & sellers from the changes.

Cheers,
Brian

 
I will just say one more thing,I agree with most of the posts both positive and negative.Both sides have good,valid points.As I've said before I think the fee's are extremely reasonable and I'm willing to support this site that means so much to me.I do think that there might have been avenues explored before this option was implemented.After all, like Spark and Mike said that this site brings large groups of buyers and sellers together.It also offers manufacturers a direct advertising and an excellent feedback venue thats extremely valuable to them given our large membership.This site generates a large amount of sales for numerous makers/manufacturers.This means custom makers and manufacturers directly benefit from this site.I know if it wasn't for my education about makers from this site there would have been alot less sales from me to certain makers/manufacturers.I agree with Gollnick about all the Distributors and manufacturers not taking up with the financial support of this site.It just seems reasonable to me that large companies like Buck,SOG,Case,Spyderco,etc. etc.where the cost of running this site would be a drop in the bucket could kick in some money to this thing since they get an enormous benefit from Bladeforums.This in turn would have still left the members not being charged a fee for any type of service.This is what also the reason is that we have such a large community(everybody likes the fact its FREE!) and Mike can say we get ten zillion hits a day and be able to sell this concept of advertising to a manufacturer.Just some more of my thoughts on the subject,Thanks,Ralph
 
This seems like a good solution.

Some of the details I don't care for, but that is the way life works.

A couple of concerns:

Ratings- Where the buyer and seller are given a rating. This sucks, I have done a good number of deals as buyer and seller, I am on the good guys to deal with list. But what keeps some new member from deciding that he does not like me, so he is gonna complain and run my rating down? In that case, I would have to bend over backwards for the inevitable sh^thead that just won't be satisfied until he has given it to me where the sun don't shine.

Mike and Spark, you have my support.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

My Talonite Resource Page, nearly exhaustive!!
My Fire Page, artificial flint and index of information.

"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
Are you really reading these messages?

quote from Spark:
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I'm glad you were able to trade and make $100 off of it though... which just proves to me that we are providing a valuable service that's worth us getting something in return for.
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Just to CLEAR things up, my post here resulted in ME SPENDING a Hundred Dollars, NOT MAKING IT !

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I did not say I wanted to make a new forum, Spark again mis-quoted me, I said he could do all this for free for EVERYONE, dealers and members. He already has the membership list, he could just SAVE the Expenses and Manhours that are so costly here, and Still keep everything FREE!

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Here's more quotes, does this make sense?
When I mentioned auction sites Spark said:
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Savitar - The insertion fee may be less there, but check out the commission fee's
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Then a few messages later he went on to say:
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No, but your point about the other auction site being cheaper was dead wrong. Sorry, but thems the facts.
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Can't have it both ways....

At least with an auction site you get world exposure, and not necessarily just knife collectors. Blade forum uses 50% of your T1 bandwidth, I wonder how that compares to ebays traffic.

And all that talk about administration costs, the terrible unpaid manhours spent bringing the forum to us, aren't you making MORE work for yourselves, now having to bill people and keep track of the ads?


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This is a discussion forum, and we need not stoop so low as to resort to name calling, and belittling others, that may be how prison works, but it is inappropriate here.
 
Gotta say that I think it is wrong to have offered something for free for so long to now want to charge for it. Typical sales tactic to get someone used to something for free and later to start charging for it.

Who are you kidding? You are running a business, and are in it for the money. I have no beef about you wanting to charge for whatever...I just think that to try to get folks to believe that you are doing this for their own good, and as a service to the forums is a mountain of bull.

First you put out a electronic magazine and wanted to charge way too much for it, so that idea layed an egg.

Now you will charge for classified ads. No doubt the ads will go up in price later on after folks are used to paying for them - another sales tactic. Why would I want to pay for something that other knife forums don't charge for?

Soon you'll probably charge a fee so folks can post. Wouldn't surprise me.
 
Savitar, it's obvious that you are just looking to pick a fight and at this point you aren't even making sense. Since you don't have any questions to ask, I guess I don't need to respond to you, because I don't like arguing for the sake of arguing, especially with someone who doesn't bother to get the facts straight. Re read the above posts and if you are unclear on something, ask a specific question.

Volvi - If you have any better suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them... It's not like we haven't been asking for them all along.

We've been trying to make this site self sufficient since it's opened. So far, nothing has worked. I'm sorry if you feel it's unreasonable that we try to turn this site into something other than a money-pit, but if you have better ideas, I'd be happy to hear them.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
So Volvi let me see if I understand this according to you something is offered to you free and then when that changes you feel like you have been wronged??? Where is it written that people like you get a free ride forever??? You have been registered here all of 2 months and now piss and moan cause the owner of this forum wants to charge a couple of bucks for a mutual service. I figure you got more then a few bucks worth of knowledge and entertainment in the two months you've been here so whats the problem?? I trust when you go out to a resturant you tip. I can't believe all the crying going on cause of a transaction fee. This place has been thriving for two years now and if it takes a couple of measley bucks in order to keep it going for another few years then by all means offer your support and not your complaints.
Bob
 
Great idea, reasonable fees, but PLEASE tell me this isn't going to be in the final version!
smile.gif



http://www.bladeforums.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?db=p ersonals&website=&language=&session_key=

Ryan


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
I was once in the "hey, how can you charge for anything!!!" camp. I have now come to realize something. I think a dollar amount of 30,000 was mentioned as what Mike and Spark have spent so far (correct me if im wrong on that number Spark). At first this site and ALL its features were free of charge. Now, no matter how charitable and giving Mike and Spark want to be, tossing that much money into this forum, the well is gonna run dry someday(unless Mike is really Bill Gates
smile.gif
) One way or another, the expenses have to be paid. Are paid ads the right way? Who knows, but as of now, they had to do something to help pay the bills. Remember, you can still come here and peruse the forums all you want, and post all you want, and it wont cost you a dime. If you dont wanna pay for an ad to sell a knife, then dont, easy as that. I think the original intent of this forum was to remain completely free. My theory is that it grew faster than anyone thought, and the expenses were far greater than anticipated. This doesnt come down to Mike and Spark getting rich, it boils down to their financial security. It is simply not feasible for the average person to toss 20 or 30 thousand a year into something with ZERO return, I know I wouldnt. Oh well, just a few more thoughts from me..take them how you will.



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Richard
icq 61363141
Just some knife pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=110070&a=4518795
 
Ryan,
I agree. I hope it isn't in there either.
Especially a few parts of it.
 
I think the solution is fair.

The problem is that i dont have, and will never have a credit card. I dont want one, its a silly tool and trap for many (unless your the credit card company making 9-25% on the dollar)

Luckily i havent had any spare knives to post recently.

To all complaining- start your own site or find another forum, its that easy.

Matt.

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"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

www.lameyknives.com
 
In life, business and organizations you have the people who give and you have the people who take. I have not had a lot of success selling knives from my collection on this forum. All I do is send pics and answer e mails. I will still pay the price that Mike and Spark ask because it is the right thing to do. Quit moaning because we have had a free ride long enough. Somebody has to pay the bills. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Mike and Spark , I'm behind you all the way.

Bobby Branton

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AKTI member #1000
President South Carolina Association of Knifemakers
President American Knife Throwers Alliance

http://www.brantonknives.com

[This message has been edited by Knifeslinger (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
Spark just a question? I have been reading all of the posts and looking at the times that you have posted. Do you sleep?
wink.gif


I have not sold or bought any knives from the for sale forum. With that being said, if I was going to sell a knife I would not have a problem paying a fee for an add. I signed up for the Emagazine, when that did not work out I donated the money to help support the forums, well I also got a REALLY cool
cool.gif
shirt out of the deal. I hope that this will work to make the forums a self sustaining entity. I would hate to have BF go away. I have gained so much knowledge and inspiration here.

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Shawn R Sullivan

[This message has been edited by MrCas (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
A schism! I've always wanted to see a schism!

Unfortunately for e-businesses, there isn't anyone who can say "This is how we've done things for the last 30 years". There are only novices, doing the best they can, trying to make a buck, or at least break even.

You can't fault the proprietors for trying to make this site self-sufficient. That's just silly. Personally, I can't fault them for stutter-stepping a little in their efforts. If there were a set of instructions, the policies would not only be stable, but they'd be making money.

To Mike & Spark - What you've already provided for me is worth whatever speed bumps result from your tribulations. Thanks for continuing to do what it takes to keep this site live.

To the Dealers - Best place to continue reaching this prospective customer is right here. Sometimes you've just got to suck it up and do what the customer wants...

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AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
...just another word of encouragement to Mike and Spark for doing a wonderful service to the industry by the provision of BladeForums.

As a dealer, I specialize in having what I believe is the BEST product, and BladeForums is by far, the BEST place to bring it to market. BladeForums is also the best place for web development, consulting, and business services if you are a knife dealer.

At this time, my site is not even scripted for search engines and I am overwhelmed with orders, inquiries, and upcoming projects...all from BladeForums. In fact, I have directed professionals from other industries to observe the activity and traffic here on this site and they are amazed by the services which Mike and Spark provide.

Sharper Instinct is my sole source of income, and I am quite comfortable in saying that without BladeForums, things would be alot different for me.

These gentlemen are not afraid to admit mistakes...and if the moves they are making to support this site are injurious to themselves or others, they'll let you know and redirect. My hunch however is that their instincts regarding what they need to do to survive and grow here are correct.

Yours in Nuclear Gratitude...

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Andy Prisco, Manager
Sharper Instinct, LLC
Phone: 1-201-493-2469
Orders-Toll Free: 1-877-557-5200
Fax: 1-201-493-2039
Visa & Mastercard Accepted

Authorized Dealers:
Busse Combat Knives and Big East Traditional Bows

Professional Shooting Svcs: Corporate Training and Stress Mgmt.

Busse Combat Variant Temp. HQ http://home.earthlink.net/~gregrnamin/andy/sharper.htm

Sharper Instinct Website www.sharperinstinct.com
 
I've been coming here nearly 14 months and it's become my favorite place on earth. I support the new system 100%. Running a site of this magnitude is a costly proposition and the bills have to be paid somehow. Many of us have done what we can to support BF through donations and trading (whenever possible) through 1SKS and the other BF advertisers. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that those making the most noise about the cost of the classifieds have done the least to help BF become a viable entity.

Dealers have their own set of circumstances, but a buck is a cheap price to pay for individuals doing business, especially when dealing with items that can sell from $30 to $500. If you sell anything to anyone it's a business transaction, look it up in the dictionary. If the price of a classified ad is going to mean that much of a difference on an item you sell, maybe you should just hold on to it. You have bigger problems to address anyway.

To those who feel that Mike & Spark owe you a place to buy and sell at their expense; I suggest you pull your head out of your a$$ and have a look at the real world. To those who have threatened to go elsewhere; I for one will be happy to bid you a fond farewell as you sail off into the sunset.



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Blackdog
ffca0608.gif.orig.gif
 
OK Spark, here's my question

Why are youy bitching and moaning about all the money and manhours you spend on this forum when you could put it out for FREE on an E-mail Digest? That's right FREE, no T1, no server, no moderator.

Just say you want to make more money, more money, more money.
 
I'm the first to say this is a great service to its members, that I've benefitted mightily by its existence, and that I'd be happy to pay a fee for selling a knife here. That said, it wasn't broke, didn't need this fix, and the cure is worse than the disease.

The classifieds are not a substitute for the forum format. It is much more difficult to access info on sale knives, and it effectively eliminates the wonderful serendipity of happening upon an ad for something you didn't even know existed. Its your ball so you make the rules, but you're destroying that which made the site unique and attractive. Separate the desire to produce revenue, and you'd never in a million years go this route. I still wish you well, but this is a giant leap in the wrong direction.
 
LOL! ROTFLMAO! That's funny! Thank's Savitar, that's the best laugh I've had all month... Just a suggestion, but if I were you, I'd do some more research on just what is involved in a mailing list, the upsides, the downsides, etc before you get too set on that decision, Savitar, because you obviously have no experience with either. Go ahead and try to manage an even medium traffic e-mailing list with 6,000 members. Best of luck to you...

Web based communities are much more user friendly, appealing, visually pleasing, feature rich, and "homier" than mailing lists. I've run both. This is much nicer by far.

Sorry, but that's a no go in my book.

Jbravo - Again, just because it's not broke for you, it doesn't mean that it's not broke for us.

As far as difficulty in use, how difficult is it to find an ad? You have 7 different search methods to use, and you can search the entire classifieds database, which you *can't* do with the For Sale forums. You can go directly to the appropriate category. You can subscribe to the AutoNotify feature and be told every time something pops up with the keywords you are looking for. Failing that, you can just browse through the ads as they are in the categories.... If anything, this is more feature rich than before, and better for the customer.

As far as seperating the revenue from the site, again, I'm open for suggestions on just how to go about that without making anyone angry. Thus far, I haven't heard any.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 05-24-2000).]
 
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