Improvements the 25 made to the 21

blade man said:
We get it, you like the 25 better and consider the 21 (even in plain format?) an art knife. That's cool, but not everyone agrees with you.
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Seems like a straw man. I made the comments about the sebenza becoming more of an art knife in the specific context of coated Damascus and fragile inlays and I stand by that. I don't think anyone would disagree.

I don't even think I ever said I like the 25 better than the 21, nor did I ever argue that the 25 was better in every way than the 21. I argued the 25 improved some features of the 21 as far as a working knife is concerned. To me those improvements make the 25 a better working knife than the 21, not a better collectable keep me pretty in the box knife though.

I think I have more 21s than I do 25s. I'm not wed to the 25. I'm hoping the Inkosi improves upon it as a working knife and I would be happy to write up a long post then as well.

I gotta ask, did you skim my post or read it?
 
bluemetalchurch said:
All of the changes can be argued as "not improvements." It depends on your outlook.
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I would love if you would please do that. I'm very curious as to what aspects of changes such as the ceramic ball lock bar interface and the large hollow ground have negatively impacted the performance of the knife. I'm always open to new perspectives and I look forward to reading about yours.
 
kidcongo said:
No, not at all. Take the time to read my post again, or don't. It's all good.
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I'm sorry maybe I'm dense or something but even after I read it again I come away with the impression that you are saying Chris could have named the 25 something else because the changes made are so substantial that it is so different it's not a Sebenza.

So it's not really even a Sebenza thus certainly not an improved 21. And that perhaps he did so because of the interest that would be generated by him doing so thus naming it the 25 was perhaps a marketing strategy.

The premise you stated is that both the 21 and the 25 are both still currently offered and if Chris truely intended the 25 be an improved 21 he would have replaced the 21 with the 25.

Please correct me where I'm wrong.

Thanks!
 
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JustinFournier said:
I'm always open to new perspectives and I look forward to reading about yours.
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But only if they agree with yours?

Yes, I read your whole posts. You don't have to state you like the 25 better, as it's obvious in your statements and even if you do/did/whatever, who cares? I don't care which one you like better, or if you don't, or if you like both equally. You are determined to be argumentative with everyone in this thread who doesn't echo your sentiments.

Plenty of people have and do use the 21...and the classic before it....and the regular before it....and the productions before that....and the original handmade Sebenzas. You mention that the changes made make the 25 a better working knife "for me." That doesn't mean it does for everyone. I don't think the large hollow grind has any negative effect on the blade's performance, but since I never had an issue with the performance of my regulars, Insingo, or 21s, I don't see it as a particular improvement either.

I don't see the ceramic ball interface as being demonstrably better than the standard Ti interface either, so again, I don't see it as an improvement. I don't think it does or achieves anything that the previous Sebenzas have been lacking in.

I'm going to bow out of this, as you've made it clear you're only interested in having people agree with you, but I gotta ask...did you ever use another Sebenza, only to find it had so many issues that you pined for a better version? Either way, enjoy your Sebenzas.
 
So if the 25 is discontinued and replaced with the large Inkosi, will the 25 become more valuable? What improvements upon the 25 would we be likely to see in a large Inkosi? Also, the Sebenza 30 could be coming our way with a pivot bushing, ceramic ball and large hollow grind sometime soon...maybe there are big things on the horizon!
 
dkblade said:
So if the 25 is discontinued and replaced with the large Inkosi, will the 25 become more valuable? What improvements upon the 25 would we be likely to see in a large Inkosi? Also, the Sebenza 30 could be coming our way with a pivot bushing, ceramic ball and large hollow grind sometime soon...maybe there are big things on the horizon!
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CRK seems to have recognized the 'pocket-clip vs finger grooves' issue with the small Inkosi. If the small Inkosi's offset pocket clip is featured on the large Inkosi, that would address my single biggest gripe with the 25 and I would say "Bravo" to that. I would also like to see them offer the Large Inkosi in the thinner blade stock of the small Inkosi. I understand they need a certain stock thickness to make the ceramic ball interface work correctly, but hopefully they've got the engineering down now to do it on a blade approaching 21 thickness. I can't remember where I read it, but one of the supposed reasons the 25 and Umnumzaan have the thicker blade is so the ball lock has enough real estate to stay in the sweet spot on the tang without sliding over too far under grip pressure.
 
kidcongo said:
CRK seems to have recognized the 'pocket-clip vs finger grooves' issue with the small Inkosi. If the small Inkosi's offset pocket clip is featured on the large Inkosi, that would address my single biggest gripe with the 25 and I would say "Bravo" to that. I would also like to see them offer the Large Inkosi in the thinner blade stock of the small Inkosi. I understand they need a certain stock thickness to make the ceramic ball interface work correctly, but hopefully they've got the engineering down now to do it on a blade approaching 21 thickness. I can't remember where I read it, but one of the supposed reasons the 25 and Umnumzaan have the thicker blade is so the ball lock has enough real estate to stay in the sweet spot on the tang without sliding over too far under grip pressure.
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I Haven't handled a 25 or an Inkosi yet but the Inkosi pocket clip looks like an upgrade, alleviating some of the tension from the lock bar. As for blade thickness, a thinner blade stock with the 25's wider hollow grind would be an excellent slicer if the ceramic ball allows. Bring back the pivot bushing too, but include the 25's pivot screw, then bring it out with all the 21's inlay choices.
 
Anyone have a finicky lock bar or lock-stick issues with their Umnum or 25? I think ceramic ball is an improvement that benefits the maker and customer.
 
LMT66 said:
Anyone have a finicky lock bar or lock-stick issues with their Umnum or 25? I think ceramic ball is an improvement that benefits the maker and customer.
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I know this doesn't answer your question at all but I do have lock bar stick on my 21 if there's any debris on the blade tang, I just wipe it off with my shirt and its stick free. I'm curious to know if the umnum or 25 are prone to lock stick with that fancy ceramic ball.
 
dkblade said:
I know this doesn't answer your question at all but I do have lock bar stick on my 21 if there's any debris on the blade tang, I just wipe it off with my shirt and its stick free. I'm curious to know if the umnum or 25 are prone to lock stick with that fancy ceramic ball.
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Generally speaking all my new Sebenzas have some amount of lock stick. The 25s usually need a wipe down of extra grease, and a little bit of break in and they are good to go, but I always feel like there is a tiny amount there. My 21s have always over time broken in to the point where you cannot feel anything being released at all. It just pops off. Personally I think it is because the 21s lock up much earlier, and the stick will develop late in the wear. I don't carry 21s nearly as much as 25s, so they don't wear much.

The 25s lock up much later, so there seems to always be a tiny amount, but the locks don't really ever wear for me. It's much less than a 21 would have with that much wear IMO.

One 25 I have EDCd since 2013 is still right where it was from factory. And it has enough wear it has some blade play now.

To give you an idea, of the 25s I have, and remember this is IME, the 25 has MUCH less stick than a new 21. Most of my 21s are Damascus and are safe queens so they have all noticeable stick. I only have 2 21s that are worn in to the point they are perfect in action and they are both being retired.
 
Has anyone ever worried about the ceramic ball shattering or splintering from a hard impact?
 
dkblade said:
Has anyone ever worried about the ceramic ball shattering or splintering from a hard impact?
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Well...I have read MANY accounts of people worrying about this.

But I have never heard of an instance where it happened. The Umnumzaan has been out a while now. I suspect we would have heard if there was a problem.
 
Sebenza 25 may be or may not be improved version of 21,time will tell.It is a good knife but I will stick to 21.Really like pivot bushing and simplicity of the 21.That is good enough for me.Very good thread,enjoyed reading.Cheers.
 
unit said:
Well...I have read MANY accounts of people worrying about this.

But I have never heard of an instance where it happened. The Umnumzaan has been out a while now. I suspect we would have heard if there was a problem.
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I wonder if cold steels spine whack test would do it. I'd be interested to see how the 25 fares on their strength testing.
 
They make engines out of ceramic material, not all ceramics are dinner plates :)
 
I don't mind improvements to a knife, in fact, if you can make something a little better without increasing the price much, go for it. And I like some of the improvements the 25 did make. My issue with the 25 is the looks. I've always preferred the clean lines of the Regular, Classic and 21. That hump on the 25 blade just bugs me to no end when looking at it open. And the finger grooves ruin the clean/minimalist looks that the Sebenza set the standard. Just my .02
 
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Hawk45 said:
I don't mind improvements to a knife, in fact, if you can make something a little better without increasing the price much, go for it. And I like some of the improvements the 25 did make. My issue with the 25 is the looks. I've always preferred the clean lines of the Regular, Classic and 21. That hump on the 25 blade just bugs me to no end when looking at it open. And the finger grooves ruin the clean/minimalist looks that the Sebenza set the standard. Just my .02
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I know its a matter of personal taste, but I like the look of the blade shape on the 25 and Inkosi. I like the insingo shape better but like the 25 shape better then the normal blade. I am not much for finger grooves but they did not impact my using of the Inkosi and just disappear when holding a 25. I do like not having them on a 21. I am happy the 21 is still around along side the newer models. I own both 21's and Inkosi. (Sorry I know its a 25 thread but the Inkosi is so much a small 25 with a couple of really minor changes I think it applies to both)
 
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