In HATE with VG10 and Elmax

It boggles my mind why someone who hates a given steel would have so many knives in said steel just because of the design. Isn't the steel a very important part of a knife design?

VG10 is a wonderfully capable steel! Easy to sharpen, corrosion resistant, in expensive, and at least the way I sharpen it, holds a good edge.

Elmax is just amazingly wonderful stuff! I love it in my 0560s. Besides M4, it is my favorite steel I own right now (note: I don't have anything in M390 yet, 0562cf I'm look at you).
 
Sounds like you might be getting a wire edge on vg10? The wear resistance is certainly not low, nor is it a low carbide steel unless you compare to the more crazy wear resistant steels that are becoming mainstream.

The problem is you are using definitive statements about things that need some relative objectivity. You can't just say "it sucks, its wear resistance is horrible" without comparing what you find to be good, what you are comparing to. Without that, basically everyone just says, "um, no, you are wrong."
 
bld522 said:
Gee, I don't know. Is it ridiculous to assume that the Swedish Air Force has some metallurgists working for it? And how many other military establishments can you name that specify a knife alloy for use by a branch of their service? And is it possible that they tested VG-10 thoroughly before selecting it or do you think it's more likely that they just pulled it out of a hat? :confused:
Click to expand...

I didn't make the argument that a military unit endorsing a steel means it's awesome. Does anyone here know what the Swedish air force was looking for? Do we know their testing regimen or results? Do we know their budget? How can we draw any conclusions from their choice of steel when we don't even know why they chose it?

Again, people toss out that statement as if it were proof that vg-10 is awesome simply because the air force of a country that's been involved in 4 wars in the past 200 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden) chose to issue a particular steel in knives for one unit of their military...

Let's talk about VG-10 on its own merits rather than using an appeal to authority. I like Spyderco's VG-10. My Moran lightweight gets silly sharp with little effort, and it's very corrosion resistant. I haven't done an extensive battery of tests on it. I'm not going to make sweeping claims about it. I will note that VG-10 is used on high end Japanese chefs knives with thin geometry, so that's another point to consider.
 
I also thought I didn't like VG-10 at first. Then I started to play around with bevel angles and edge finishes. I've found that if you have a bevel angle of around 20dps on VG-10, that it's not going to cut for a long time. Then I put a 15 dps and a 1000 grit finish on my FFG endura and it was like a different steel.

I always post this pic when someone questions the edge retention of VG-10 because it is the performance I get with my FFG endura. I wonder how much cutting the OP does that he sniffs down his nose at VG-10.

GreenEndura1_zpsf29b89db.jpg
 
ukknifer said:
I don't care what graphs or numbers you post.
VG10 and Elmax are the worst steels (in my opinion and experience)
VG10= Hyped as superior to steels like aus8 and 154cm. I wish that spyderco (my favorite knife company + bark river) would quite using it as their main staple steel.
Elmax= does not sharpen well and does not keep initial sharpness well and I just hate it. Wish kershaw would stop using it.
I hope those two steels disparate in some junkyard or melt in some giant forge and never come back.

Why not use wonderful steels like D2, M2, BG-42, s30v, s35v, cpm154, (even aus8 is better than vg10)
Click to expand...

I think they are two of the best steels for knives ever. ELMAX is a little more difficult to sharpen, and from my usage it seems to prefer an edge that finishes slightly more coarse than something like M390. Spyderco's VG-10 tends to favor toughness over higher hardness that you will see on some VG-10 and some VG-10 laminate kitchen knives.

And I suppose your post also shows how much preference is involved here. I strongly dislike D2 because of the lower toughness, poor polishing, sometimes has very noticeable portions on an edge which dull faster than the rest of the knife, and the lack of corrosion resistance. I like ELMAX more than D2, M2, BG-42, and S30V. :)
 
Please note that the only issued Swedish Air Force F1's with mark and issue number I have seen during my years of service (army, not air force) were in ATS34 rather than VG10. However, I and many soldiers like me carry F1s in VG10 due to the performance of said knife.

We might not fight a lot of wars, but an issued blade of this kind was never meant for fighting. We use it for survival training, fieldcraft and the such. It's a utility knife and for this I find FKs laminated VG10 works brilliantly.
 
Well...they are wonderful steels.

I personally use an Elmax boning knife (a la Darrin Sanders) at work and I gotta say it's a really nice steel. When boning out chickens I can't stand anything less than dangerous levels of sharpness, and Elmax takes it and holds it despite riding and breaking through bones. To sweeten the deal, it takes it back with very little effort. If you want to talk about garbage steel, find out what Victorinox uses on their boning knives.

As for VG10, I don't have nearly as much experience with it but I've had nothing bad to say about it so far.
 
ukknifer said:
Elmax is the same to me. I swear that Elmax is vg10. :D.
I have a knife in about every steel. but these two are my worst. Now, Why keep buying something you dont like? because I like spydercos and SOME Kershaws too much to not buy them because of the steel.
When I see people saying "Oh they are wonderful steels", it drives me even more crazy:mad:
Click to expand...

Most user experiences with ELMAX once KAI refined their HT process has been overwhelmingly positive, including my own first-hand experience. I don't know how ELMAX performs with a convexed edge finished with sandpaper, but I know that at factory angles finished with a more coarse stone that the performance is exceptional relative to the other properties (toughness and corrosion resistance). Like S35VN and CPM-154, I find it to be one of the best all-around steels used and offers some pretty big performance gains over excellent steels like S30V and BG-42. And like S35VN and CPM-154, it is a very tough stainless steel and relative to its excellent wear resistance and excellent corrosion resistance, it's unusually tough. When I see people comparing D2 to ELMAX, I get a little confused myself! :(
 
Man i love vg10. Im probably the worst and most inexperienced sharpener on here and i can still sharpen vg10 with my sharpmaker hair shaving sharp.
 
Fanglekai said:
I didn't make the argument that a military unit endorsing a steel means it's awesome. Does anyone here know what the Swedish air force was looking for? Do we know their testing regimen or results? Do we know their budget? How can we draw any conclusions from their choice of steel when we don't even know why they chose it?

Again, people toss out that statement as if it were proof that vg-10 is awesome simply because the air force of a country that's been involved in 4 wars in the past 200 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden) chose to issue a particular steel in knives for one unit of their military...

Let's talk about VG-10 on its own merits rather than using an appeal to authority. I like Spyderco's VG-10. My Moran lightweight gets silly sharp with little effort, and it's very corrosion resistant. I haven't done an extensive battery of tests on it. I'm not going to make sweeping claims about it. I will note that VG-10 is used on high end Japanese chefs knives with thin geometry, so that's another point to consider.
Click to expand...

Switzerland, a neutral country, sure makes some good firearms for not being in many wars ;)
 
Fanglekai said:
Again, people toss out that statement as if it were proof that vg-10 is awesome simply because the air force of a country that's been involved in 4 wars in the past 200 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Sweden) chose to issue a particular steel in knives for one unit of their military...
Click to expand...

Just want to point out that you used an abusive ad hominem argument and then rejected an appeal to authority. Both are logical fallacies.
 
pnsxyr said:
When I see people comparing D2 to ELMAX, I get a little confused myself! :(
Click to expand...

B/U has done themselves a big disservice by promoting Elmax as "D2 on steroids", at least as far as the cutlery market is concerned. Chemically I can see why they'd say that, and it makes sense when comparing them as die steels*. But in knives, they perform very differently from one another in every aspect that's important to knife users.

* it's important to remember that neither steel was actually developed for hand-held knives, and the appropriate cutlery-specific HT for either one will vary quite a bit from the "industry standards" that are geared towards totally different uses.
 
deskil said:
Just want to point out that you used an abusive ad hominem argument and then rejected an appeal to authority. Both are logical fallacies.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better. But then, I'm not sure I would have known how to say it in the first place. ;) :D
 
My experience with both VG-10 and Elmax is very positive. They both take a keen edge (Elmax takes a little longer to get there), and hold that edge for a considerable amount of time.

Not sure what actual experience the OP has with these steels. Maybe his examples had bad heat treats, maybe the knives themselves were lemons, who knows? He's entitled to his own opinion, even if it does sound trollish.
 
deskil said:
Just want to point out that you used an abusive ad hominem argument and then rejected an appeal to authority. Both are logical fallacies.
Click to expand...
You missed the point. The wars are irrelevant. A military issuing a knife in a particular steel is irrelevant.

It wasn't an ad hominem attack. It's a rejection of his appeal to authority.

kniferbro said:
Switzerland, a neutral country, sure makes some good firearms for not being in many wars ;)
Click to expand...

Again why the military issuing a knife is irrelevant.
 
Got a ZT 0566 before work yesterday, then used it at work yesterday and today during seasonal transitions. Lots of breaking down cardboard shippers-- primarily 5"-6" slices over the last couple days, about 20 such cuts per shipper. Broke down. 4 shippers. It's still cutting effortlessly.

I'm only 2 days in, but I'm loving Elmax so far.
 
Absolutely no reason to hate VG-10. If you think AUS8 holds an edge longer you are delusional....and I like AUS8....a lot.

I use the hell out of one of my VG-10 knives and sharpen it about 3 times a year. Seriously. AUS8 knives - about twice a month. They are so far apart as far as ability to hold an edge it's laughable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top