in love with 5160

chad2 said:
(Manufacturer's recommended heat treat)
Quench: 1525 degrees soak/hold for 30 mins, oil quench
Temper: 1 to 2 times for 2 hours, 450 degrees = 57-59 hrc depending on type of oil you quench with

(New heat treat taken from a mix of ed caffery and ed fowler)
First off this is not how either ed heat treats there knives but this is what I have come up with talking with both of them.
Normalize = 3: 1 day, into house freezer overnight after all three.
Thermal cycle = 3: 1 day, into freezer over night after all three.
Anneal = 3: 3 days, each one cools in furnace over night. no freezer
Quench = 3: 3 days, 1545 degrees for 5 mins, oil is heated to about 160 degrees, into freezer after each quench overnight.
Temper = 3: 3 days, 400 degrees for 2 hours, into freezer after each cycle. This temper should give you about 58-60 hrc with canola oil which is what I use, I am going to up grade to parks50 soon though.

After the first temper I quench in cold running water to help with Ra. The 2nd and 3rd tempers I let cool in the furnace with the door partcially open, I do this to help reduce grain size.

Everything is done in threes because steel will react to all three after that it does nothing.

I also do not do high heat soak times because this promotes grain growth which is the exact opposite of how you want the grain to be in a knife. Larger grain means more brittle at high hardnesses and less wear resistance. The edge will chip easier also.

If you have any other questions do not hesitate to ask. Hope this helps.
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I don't think I understand. Are you saying that it's a 12 day process?
 
Looking good!

5160 is a real performer, I recently beat the heck out of this 18" blade and it took it like a champ!

This knife is somewhat of a piercing/gladius style of blade. I was really impressed by the edge holding and durability. I left the RC high at around 60.

[video=youtube;GSUbu8Lpwcw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSUbu8Lpwcw&feature=share&list=UUaO0RlIjA-P-7w5aOIGnksA[/video]
 
me2 said:
Can you describe whats happening during the open door cooling after tempering that reduces grain size? Or can anyone else?
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the idea is that heat makes the steel expand (aka) grain growth, and if it cools to fast it will set at that expanded state, yes it maybe only miniscule but you are doing it three times so it adds up. and maybe Ed fowler can explain a lot better. the way i look at it is, what ever i can do to help the steel perform better, i will do! :)
 
Thats all I needed to hear. Thanks.

On a related note, how did/do you sharpen your blades? Was the procedure changed from the older ones to this current knife?
 
me2 said:
Thats all I needed to hear. Thanks.

On a related note, how did/do you sharpen your blades? Was the procedure changed from the older ones to this current knife?
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no it is still the same old cheap lansky sharpener i need an upgrade
 
Grain size is unaffected at temper heats. By slow cooling you are preventing RA from transforming to a little more martensite, and is certainly not a beneficial procedure.
 
Chad: You have tested and you are learning what many will never know.

When you try something different you will come to know many critics, some will aid you in your quest, some will not. When you get advice, just ask those offering their opinions how they test their knives.

In the mean time, read all you can find - you will find many have traveled the road to something different and they await you in old and new texts, all you need to learn is to look at what they were making and most essentially how they tested their results.
 
LRB said:
Grain size is unaffected at temper heats. By slow cooling you are preventing RA from transforming to a little more martensite, and is certainly not a beneficial procedure.
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actually a fast cooling rate from temper heats helps ra transform
 
Ed Fowler said:
Chad: You have tested and you are learning what many will never know.

When you try something different you will come to know many critics, some will aid you in your quest, some will not. When you get advice, just ask those offering their opinions how they test their knives.

In the mean time, read all you can find - you will find many have traveled the road to something different and they await you in old and new texts, all you need to learn is to look at what they were making and most essentially how they tested their results.
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thanks again Ed these guys will not have an affect on my thoughts of this heat treat. it only makes me want to hone it more like paying more attention to heat in my kiln and test again!! :)
 
Once you start testing knives to destruction you may note why I always use a slow cooling rate from temper.
 
Chad2,

It seems the next step will be to test your next knife against one from a well known maker (Ed or Ed come to mind). I know one of them used to make knives out of 5160.
Heck, you might be able to get a discount. Make your knife as similar as you can to the one you are testing against. This is one way for you to determine if you have reached a high level of proficiency.
 
".....the idea is that heat makes the steel expand (aka) grain growth, and if it cools to fast it will set at that expanded state...."

This is so far off that it doesn't really deserve a rebuttal......but, I will - It is total nonsense.
Since this thread has drifted into the realm of fantasy science, I'll drop out.
 
bladsmth said:
".....the idea is that heat makes the steel expand (aka) grain growth, and if it cools to fast it will set at that expanded state...."

This is so far off that it doesn't really deserve a rebuttal......but, I will - It is total nonsense.
Since this thread has drifted into the realm of fantasy science, I'll drop out.
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Ok so I have done a little more reaserch and it seems that I had miss understood my readings again. At tempering temperatures there is no measureable grain growth. Sorry guys but I will say that, I wont stop doing it and actually I am going to be doing a fully closed door temper cool down from now on.
 
Bo T said:
Chad2,

It seems the next step will be to test your next knife against one from a well known maker (Ed or Ed come to mind). I know one of them used to make knives out of 5160.
Heck, you might be able to get a discount. Make your knife as similar as you can to the one you are testing against. This is one way for you to determine if you have reached a high level of proficiency.
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Well actually how about I test a blade heat treated by one of you guys against my heat treat. I can make both blades exactly the same from the same piece of steel and when I am done grinding send it out to you for heat treat and I will heat treat mine. I will also do a wip on it so you can keep track of what I am doing , then you put your knife makers mark on yours and mine will have nothing lol and I will test them on video no breaks in filming.
 
Nice job Chad. Testing is where it's at. What convinced me of the merits of the triple quench, at least with 52100 and 5160 is I made my father a two blade trapper several years ago and one blade had a single quench, the other a triple quench. I didn't tell him they were different heat treats, just to test it out on the farm. A few days later he let me know that while both blades did "good", one held a much better edge and was a little easier to sharpen. It was the triple quenched blade that did better. Testing, and blind testing will tell you a lot about how a blade performs, and how well you did with your heat treat.
 
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