Inclusive the hard way

[RX-79G]

Since these are only beveled on one side, am I correct in thinking that a 30 or 40 degree inclusive edge means 30 or 40 degrees just on the one side? Will the Lansky or other controlled angle sharpener even do that?

There is no other knife company in the world that is owned and run by one of the world’s most respected custom knife makers.

http://emersonknives.com/about-us/

 

[DAVE_M]

Since these are only beveled on one side, am I correct in thinking that a 30 or 40 degree inclusive edge means 30 or 40 degrees just on the one side? Will the Lansky or other controlled angle sharpener even do that?

Not all Emerson knives are chisel ground. Your thinking is incorrect.

 

[RX-79G]

Not all Emerson knives are chisel ground. Your thinking is incorrect.

I was only talking about the ones that are beveled on one side. "These" referred to chisel ground knives, not Emerson knives.

 

[DAVE_M]

I was only talking about the ones that are beveled on one side. "These" referred to chisel ground knives, not Emerson knives.

Then they would not be inclusive, as there is only one edge bevel. To say a chisel grind has ___ degree inclusive edge, is improper use of the word inclusive.

 

[RX-79G]

Then they would not be inclusive, as there is only one edge bevel. To say a chisel grind has ___ degree inclusive edge, is improper use of the word inclusive.

How could any knife not have an inclusive edge? All the term means is that you added the edge angles together measured from both sides: 0 + 30 = 30. 15 + 5 = 20. 20 + 20 = 40.

We use the term "inclusive" so we can talk about the final edge angle - which is especially important when you're trying to compare symmetric and asymmetric knives.

 

[DAVE_M]

How could any knife not have an inclusive edge?

If it only has one side beveled. If "we" are going to use the word inclusive to describe the sum of both angles, then inclusive is improper for a chisel grind. In other words, you can't add an angle that doesn't exist.

 

[RX-79G]

If it only has one side beveled. If "we" are going to use the word inclusive to describe the sum of both angles, then inclusive is improper for a chisel grind. In other words, you can't add an angle that doesn't exist.

So you can't add 0 to a number, but you can add any number slightly greater than 0? That isn't exactly a math rule.

And it doesn't make much sense when you're trying to talk about knives and how they cut. You're essentially saying that if I put a .25 degree bevel on one side of a blade, the term "inclusive" can be used, but if it is zero then we can't use the same language as every other knife.


Anyway, you seem to have understood my question. Hopefully someone can comment if you can use a Lansky on these type of blades, or if the one sided angle is too great.

 

[DAVE_M]

So you can't add 0 to a number, but you can add any number slightly greater than 0? That isn't exactly a math rule.

And it doesn't make much sense when you're trying to talk about knives and how they cut. You're essentially saying that if I put a .25 degree bevel on one side of a blade, the term "inclusive" can be used, but if it is zero then we can't use the same language as every other knife.


Anyway, you seem to have understood my question. Hopefully someone can comment if you can use a Lansky on these type of blades, or if the one sided angle is too great.

Do you understand what the word inclusive means?

Let me break it down into 3rd grade terms. If Jimmy has 3 apples and Billy has none. Together they have 3 apples, not 3 inclusive apples, because you can't include what Billy doesn't have.

 

[RX-79G]

I do have a pretty good grasp on the term. I had thought we used it in the knife world to talk about the final edge angle so we could compare Jimmy and Billy's apples, not apples and oranges. You could even have a negative edge angle, and you would have the include that angle if you want to figure out how the knife is going to cut. Not being able to use a helpful term like "inclusive" for one and only one type of grind is silly. I'm sorry my use of the term is causing so much discontent and confusion.

Lee, thanks for your comments on my question about sharpening chisel grinds. I couldn't find anything about sharpening or edge angle(s) on Emerson's site.

 

[DAVE_M]

I do have a pretty good grasp on the term. I had thought we used it in the knife world to talk about the final edge angle so we could compare Jimmy and Billy's apples, not apples and oranges. You could even have a negative edge angle, and you would have the include that angle if you want to figure out how the knife is going to cut. Not being able to use a helpful term like "inclusive" for one and only one type of grind is silly. I'm sorry my use of the term is causing so much discontent and confusion.

Lee, thanks for your comments on my question about sharpening chisel grinds. I couldn't find anything about sharpening or edge angle(s) on Emerson's site.

You can't redefine the word... At first I thought you just didn't understand, but now I see it's you acting like a child that doesn't get his way.

A Chisel ground blade has one edge on one side. Inclusive means you are including the angle on both sides. If you only have one edge, there is nothing to include.

If a Chisel ground blade has a 15 degree edge bevel. The angle of the edge is 15 degrees.
If a V ground blade has an edge bevel of 15 degrees and an inclusive edge of 30 degrees. Then we can do simple math and know that both sides are 15 degrees.

It's not hard...

 

[RX-79G]

You can't redefine the word... At first I thought you just didn't understand, but now I see it's you acting like a child that doesn't get his way.

A Chisel ground blade has one edge on one side. Inclusive means you are including the angle on both sides. If you only have one edge, there is nothing to include.

If a Chisel ground blade has a 15 degree edge bevel. The angle of the edge is 15 degrees.
If a V ground blade has an edge bevel of 15 degrees and an inclusive edge of 30 degrees. Then we can do simple math and know that both sides are 15 degrees.

It's not hard...

I am getting f'ing sick of the name calling on this site lately. It isn't necessary, it is against the rules, and makes discussion pointless.


If you want to get into definitions, you can read what an "edge" is - the end or limit of a plane, surface or object. "Single edged" knives don't have two edges. All knives have an edge, which is formed when two planes converge. That convergence has an angle, but because of the way we sharpen knives, we commonly talk about the angle of each side of the edge separately. But there aren't two edges, just two edge angles defined only by an imaginary plane running through the center of the blade.

The only important angle is the one that actually forms the edge and cuts things. If you don't like calling that edge angle "inclusive", that's fine, but the only reason we use the term inclusive is because it has become so common to confuse sharpening angle with the ACTUAL cutting angle - formed by the intersection of two planes.

What do you want to call the edge formed by the intersection of two planes, so you, me and everyone else can talk about a 20 degree per side, 15 degree on one side and 25 on the other side or a 40 on one side and 0 on the other side and know that we are talking about the exact same cutting edge???

 

[DAVE_M]

I am getting f'ing sick of the name calling on this site lately. It isn't necessary, it is against the rules, and makes discussion pointless.


If you want to get into definitions, you can read what an "edge" is - the end or limit of a plane, surface or object. "Single edged" knives don't have two edges. All knives have an edge, which is formed when two planes converge. That convergence has an angle, but because of the way we sharpen knives, we commonly talk about the angle of each side of the edge separately. But there aren't two edges, just two edge angles defined only by an imaginary plane running through the center of the blade.

The only important angle is the one that actually forms the edge and cuts things. If you don't like calling that edge angle "inclusive", that's fine, but the only reason we use the term inclusive is because it has become so common to confuse sharpening angle with the ACTUAL cutting angle - formed by the intersection of two planes.

What do you want to call the edge formed by the intersection of two planes, so you, me and everyone else can talk about a 20 degree per side, 15 degree on one side and 25 on the other side or a 40 on one side and 0 on the other side and know that we are talking about the exact same cutting edge???

I'm going to quote you again, below.

Not being able to use a helpful term like "inclusive" for one and only one type of grind is silly.

Now I will answer your question, which I have also quoted below.

What do you want to call the edge formed by the intersection of two planes, so you, me and everyone else can talk about a 20 degree per side, 15 degree on one side and 25 on the other side or a 40 on one side and 0 on the other side and know that we are talking about the exact same cutting edge???

At which point did I mention that we should not use the word inclusive? My whole point was that using the word inclusive is out of context when speaking of chisel grinds. You said you think that's silly. If you have an inclusive edge, you are including the angle of two sharpening angles; A chisel grind only has one sharpening angle. So, what is it you are trying to argue here? That you don't like it when someone calls you out for not getting your way?

 

[RX-79G]

What is the edge angle on this knife? It has three, but they are identical. Or they aren't identical, because you have to measure them in different ways depending on where you put an arbitrary centerline through this radially symmetrical shape.

 

[RX-79G]

I'm going to quote you again, below.



Now I will answer your question, which I have also quoted below.



At which point did I mention that we should not use the word inclusive? My whole point was that using the word inclusive is out of context when speaking of chisel grinds. You said you think that's silly. If you have an inclusive edge, you are including the angle of two sharpening angles; A chisel grind only has one sharpening angle. So, what is it you are trying to argue here? That you don't like it when someone calls you out for not getting your way?

If I want to compare the cutting ability of the one and only edge of two knives with a single number, how do I do that?

You're saying I can use the word "inclusive" to refer to the total edge angle, only if one of those angles isn't zero. I am asking you: What do you call the total edge angle when one of the sharpening angles is zero so it can be compared to any other knife?

 

[DAVE_M]

If I want to compare the cutting ability of the one and only edge of two knives with a single number, how do I do that?

You truly are trying to argue for the sake of arguing. Judging by your past posts, you seem to do that often.

Are you trying to compare the cutting ability of a chisel grind and a V grind? Because, that has nothing to do with what I'm speaking of.

My whole point was that using the word inclusive is out of context when speaking of chisel grinds.

 

[RX-79G]

Are you trying to compare the cutting ability of a chisel grind and a V grind? Because, that has nothing to do with what I'm speaking of.

It might not be what YOU'RE speaking of, but it is exactly the heart of the question I asked and you pretended not to comprehend. I was asking if the "final", "inclusive" or "total" edge angle of Emerson chisel (and other chisel ground knives) was similar to two sided blades, and if that created a problem for a Lansky system.

I think you understood that question many posts ago, and prefer to argue about the definition of an edge rather than just addressing the question, no matter how much contempt you have for my word choice.

Judging by your past posts, you seem to do that often.

You know, Dave, it takes two to tango. It's pretty difficult to be an argumentative ass all by your lonesome. I rely on the "assistance" of the Craytabs, POCEH KOCEBs, Bitfiends and DAVE_Ms of the world to provide the sort of patronizing, off topic, ad hominem "discussion" that inspires me to keep posting.

You'd be amazed how easy it is to take the wind out of my sails by simply being polite. Like the forum rules we both agreed to suggest.

 

[mtangent]

You can't redefine the word... At first I thought you just didn't understand, but now I see it's you acting like a child that doesn't get his way.

A Chisel ground blade has one edge on one side. Inclusive means you are including the angle on both sides. If you only have one edge, there is nothing to include.

If a Chisel ground blade has a 15 degree edge bevel. The angle of the edge is 15 degrees.
If a V ground blade has an edge bevel of 15 degrees and an inclusive edge of 30 degrees. Then we can do simple math and know that both sides are 15 degrees.

It's not hard...

So, which side is the edge on?

 

[EChoil]

RX-79G : First, please Google "knife chisel grind" and study the resulting pages for a few minutes....learn what it is, see pics of such a grind as opposed to the more common V-grinds among knives and you will see it only has one side ground---purposely.

Second, the word "inclusive" implies more than one of something: i.e. for purposes here, both sides must be ground for the word to even come into play. Your knife is not ground on both sides. Therefore the word 'inclusive' is moot to begin with. Nix...zilch...zero. Forget the word for your knife.

Finally, each Emerson chisel ground blade is factory sharpened to the individual sharpener's eye and hand with no official specification of 'grind angle' set forth to him or her by the company...meaning technically each knife receives its own custom grind angle by expert sharpener people.

After puchase, an experienced sharpener person owner will match it or modify it to their own preferences and sharpness when taking it to the stones...and very easily, one of the advantages of a chisel grind on 154CM.

Hope this helps.

 

[DAVE_M]

rx-79g : First, please google "knife chisel grind" and study the resulting pages for a few minutes....learn what it is, see pics of such a grind as opposed to the more common v-grinds among knives and you will see it only has one side ground---purposely.

Second, the word "inclusive" implies more than one of something: I.e. For purposes here, both sides must be ground for the word to even come into play. Your knife is not ground on both sides. Therefore the word 'inclusive' is moot to begin with. Nix...zilch...zero. forget the word for your knife.

finally, each emerson chisel grind blade is factory sharpened to the individual sharpener's eye and hand with no official specification of 'grind angle' set forth to him or her by the company...meaning technically each knife receives its own custom grind angle.

An experienced sharpener person will match it or modify it to their own preferences and sharpness when taking it to the stones...and very easily, one of the advantages of a chisel grind.

Hope this helps.

bingo!

 

[RX-79G]

RX-79G : First, please Google "knife chisel grind" and study the resulting pages for a few minutes....learn what it is, see pics of such a grind as opposed to the more common V-grinds among knives and you will see it only has one side ground---purposely.

Second, the word "inclusive" implies more than one of something: i.e. for purposes here, both sides must be ground for the word to even come into play. Your knife is not ground on both sides. Therefore the word 'inclusive' is moot to begin with. Nix...zilch...zero. Forget the word for your knife.

Finally, each Emerson chisel ground blade is factory sharpened to the individual sharpener's eye and hand with no official specification of 'grind angle' set forth to him or her by the company...meaning technically each knife receives its own custom grind angle by expert sharpener people.

After puchase, an experienced sharpener person owner will match it or modify it to their own preferences and sharpness when taking it to the stones...and very easily, one of the advantages of a chisel grind on 154CM.

Hope this helps.

That's all fine and I'm aware of all of it, but doesn't answer my question:

Tactical folders generally run in the 15 to 20 DPS range, meaning an inclusive cutting angle of about 30 to 40 degrees. Does Emerson's chisel grind knives use a total edge angle in the range of other tactical folders, meaning a single side grind of 30 to 40 degrees, or something else? And if it is that large, can a Lansky even go up to the that kind of angle.


If you don't like the idea of adding zero to another number to get an "inclusive angle", that's fine. Just tell me what the proper term for total edge angle is when speaking about knives in general so one doesn't have to keep making special caveats for chisels.

Example:
"15 degrees per side on a 58 Rc folder blade should be plenty durable."

"Not on a chisel grind."

"I meant 30 degrees inclusive."

"Chisels aren't inclusive."

"You know what I mean."

"I don't."