Inclusive the hard way

[rustyrazor]

I hate to agree with RX-79G as i usually do not and on occasion we have butted heads on topics, however i agree that he isn't getting an answer to his question and this seems to be a point of semantics... there ARE two angles at the edge of a chisel grind that add up to whatever the edge is ground to... whethere one side is flat (and therefore "0") it is still technically an angle... it's an angle of zero. The other ground angle has to have a set degree to which it is ground and it has to be added or subtracted to the zero to receive the final number. whether or not this is termed "inclusive" is irrelevant and doesn't answer the question. to caveat this... if it's not called "inclusive" it must have another term to which i don't know so could somebody clarify these terms for us.

 

[BenchCo Spydermade]

Omg, can we just agree that a 15* chisel grind is 15* whether you include the 0* bevel or not!? Freaking ancient Egyptians figured out the concept of using 0 as a place holder to represent the lack of something existing, but our modern genius must think a 30* angle is 3*.

 

[RX-79G]

Omg, can we just agree that a 15* chisel grind is 15* whether you include the 0* bevel or not!? Freaking ancient Egyptians figured out the concept of using 0 as a place holder to represent the lack of something existing, but our modern genius must think a 30* angle is 3*.

Everybody involved understands what's going on. No one will agree on what the proper terms are for talking about it. There should be some common language that can be applied to any grind that tells you what sort of final edge angle it has, and a few people think that "inclusive" is not the right term - which caused this fracas.

 

[egally08]

Whether using the word "inclusive" is grammatically correct or not doesn't really matter. We use the word to differentiate between one side when sharpening, or the entire angle, just like we say "DPS" - A knife has a 15 dps or 30 inclusive.

When talking about a chisel edge, there just isn't a reason to use the word inclusive. If it has a 25 degree edge, than that's what you call it. 25 degree edge. No need to add the word inclusive because we no longer need to differentiate between sides, as we all know it has only one.

 

[DAVE_M]

When talking about a chisel edge, there just isn't a reason to use the word inclusive. If it has a 25 degree edge, than that's what you call it. 25 degree edge. No need to add the word inclusive because we no longer need to differentiate between sides, as we all know it has only one.

That was exactly my point, but RX-79G got butt hurt about it.

 

[RX-79G]

Whether using the word "inclusive" is grammatically correct or not doesn't really matter. We use the word to differentiate between one side when sharpening, or the entire angle, just like we say "DPS" - A knife has a 15 dps or 30 inclusive.

When talking about a chisel edge, there just isn't a reason to use the word inclusive. If it has a 25 degree edge, than that's what you call it. 25 degree edge. No need to add the word inclusive because we no longer need to differentiate between sides, as we all know it has only one.

So you would say something like "I run all my folders at 30 degrees inclusive, except my Emerson which is set at 30 degrees and I should say is a chisel grind. But that's the same thing."

Is there a less clunky way of including a chisel ground knife in general statements about edge angle? Keeping in mind there are essentially three types of edges - symmetric, chisel and assymetric, which is why we can't just say "DPS" for everything.

 

[RX-79G]

That was exactly my point, but RX-79G got butt hurt about it.

Man, you just don't stop. Read the other responses to this thread. You're the only person who sounds angry about this, and your POV isn't even in the majority.

 

[egally08]

So you would say something like "I run all my folders at 30 degrees inclusive, except my Emerson which is set at 30 degrees and I should say is a chisel grind. But that's the same thing."

Is there a less clunky way of including a chisel ground knife in general statements about edge angle? Keeping in mind there are essentially three types of edges - symmetric, chisel and assymetric, which is why we can't just say "DPS" for everything.

I wouldn't group all my edges together anyways. Each knife should be assessed based on intended use and blade steel before choosing the optimal edge angles.

Like I said before, I'm not arguing that using the word inclusive is grammatically incorrect for a chiseled edge, it just doesn't need to be said. We aren't differentiating between one side and the other (the reason people started using the word inclusive).

So if you really had 10 knives all with 30 degree edges, including the chisel - Sure, you could say they were all 30 degrees inclusive, but when speaking of just a chisel grind, you would say it has a 30 degree edge.

 

[RX-79G]

I wouldn't group all my edges together anyways. Each knife should be assessed based on intended use and blade steel before choosing the optimal edge angles.

Like I said before, I'm not arguing that using the word inclusive is grammatically incorrect for a chiseled edge, it just doesn't need to be said. We aren't differentiating between one side and the other (the reason people started using the word inclusive).

So if you really had 10 knives all with 30 degree edges, including the chisel - Sure, you could say they were all 30 degrees inclusive, but when speaking of just a chisel grind, you would say it has a 30 degree edge.

Thank you for your response. That's pretty much what I did, because I was trying to compare the chisel to other knives apple to apple in the first post I made.

 

[egally08]

Thank you for your response. That's pretty much what I did, because I was trying to compare the chisel to other knives apple to apple in the first post I made.

Comparing it to other edges, is not grouping them together - You are singling it out. If you specifically mention chisel grind, there is no need to say inclusive. If you are going to compare the total edge angle of a chisel to a V ground edge, there's no need to say inclusive at all, even when speaking of the V, because everyone knows that we are talking about whole angles - Using the word inclusive would be redundant.

Like I said prior, is it actually incorrect to say it? No, probably not. Is it repetitive and unneeded? Yes, I think so. I've never heard anyone else say it, because it's only used to differentiate when talking about one side VS the total. That doesn't come into play with a chisel grind, because no one ever wonders what size angle the flat of a chisel is.

 

[Mark Knapp]

This thread is a pretty good example of what goes on in internet forums way too often in my opinion. People get into this kind of "arguing for sport" over definitions instead of talking about the OPs original point. If you like to argue for sport, and some people do, that's fine but nothing constructive ever comes from it.

I have DMT sharpening system it does not have a hole for thirty degrees for a 30 chisel grind on one side. I have had Lanski systems and one that was called a Loray Sharpening system, as I recall all of them seemed to stop at about 25 degrees, inclusive, or 12.5 on a side (depending, of course, on how wide your blade is). I think it would be easy to make an extension with more holes to extend one side of the knife clamp to accommodate wider angles for chisel grinds.

 

[RX-79G]

Comparing it to other edges, is not grouping them together - You are singling it out. If you specifically mention chisel grind, there is no need to say inclusive. If you are going to compare the total edge angle of a chisel to a V ground edge, there's no need to say inclusive at all, even when speaking of the V, because everyone knows that we are talking about whole angles - Using the word inclusive would be redundant.

Like I said prior, is it actually incorrect to say it? No, probably not. Is it repetitive and unneeded? Yes, I think so. I've never heard anyone else say it, because it's only used to differentiate when talking about one side VS the total. That doesn't come into play with a chisel grind, because no one ever wonders what size angle the flat of a chisel is.

Okay, from what I'm understanding of your post, one could simple say "the edge is 30 degrees" for any knife, and the reader/listener would know that meant "30 degrees inclusive" vs. "30 DPS"?

This thread is a pretty good example of what goes on in internet forums way too often in my opinion. People get into this kind of "arguing for sport" over definitions instead of talking about the OPs original point. If you like to argue for sport, and some people do, that's fine but nothing constructive ever comes from it.

I hear you. I tried to ask a simple question about edge angles and was told I asked it wrong. I'm hoping the result of this new thread is that people like myself that thought they knew how to talk about knives will be equipped with the proper terminology so future questions and comments aren't detoured by nomenclature.

 

[DAVE_M]

This thread is a pretty good example of what goes on in internet forums way too often in my opinion. People get into this kind of "arguing for sport" over definitions instead of talking about the OPs original point. If you like to argue for sport, and some people do, that's fine but nothing constructive ever comes from it.

I have DMT sharpening system it does not have a hole for thirty degrees for a 30 chisel grind on one side. I have had Lanski systems and one that was called a Loray Sharpening system, as I recall all of them seemed to stop at about 25 degrees (depending, of course, on how wide your blade is). I think it would be easy to make an extension with more holes to extend one side of the knife clamp to accommodate wider angles for chisel grinds.

Well, we could talk about the Lansky system. RX asked two questions and we're done answering the first.

My issue with the Lansky system is that the edge angle will always vary. There are too many flaws, in the system, to get consistent edge angles. I own the deluxe kit and added the 2000 sapphire hone. It works fine and dandy when I want to reprofile an edge, but it's horrible to touch up an edge. There are no slots labeled 30 degrees, but it can be achieved by moving the blade in the jig or cutting the jig shorter. If I have a blade that is 1" from the spine to the edge and I place 1/8" of the blade in the jig, the angle will be different at the 25 degree mark compared to if I had 3/4" of the blade in the jig using the 25 degree mark. This doesn't even account for the slop in the guide holes or that you have to manually adjust the guides.

Okay, from what I'm understanding of your post, one could simple say "the edge is 30 degrees" for any knife, and the reader/listener would know that meant "30 degrees inclusive" vs. "30 DPS"?

No. You either truly don't understand what we are saying or you just want to debate.

If I told you my knife edge is 30 degrees. How do you know what kind of grind I have? You don't.
If I told you my knife edge is 30 degrees inclusive, one could deduce that I have some sort of grind with a sharpened edge on both sides.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

I have DMT sharpening system it does not have a hole for thirty degrees for a 30 chisel grind on one side. I have had Lanski systems and one that was called a Loray Sharpening system, as I recall all of them seemed to stop at about 25 degrees (depending, of course, on how wide your blade is). I think it would be easy to make an extension with more holes to extend one side of the knife clamp to accommodate wider angles for chisel grinds.

I have a system that avoids that problem entirely. I take the knife in one hand and the stone in the other ... it takes a little practice, though.

 

[RX-79G]

Well, we could talk about the Lansky system. RX asked two questions and we're done answering the first.

My issue with the Lansky system is that the edge angle will always vary. There are too many flaws, in the system, to get consistent edge angles. I own the deluxe kit and added the 2000 sapphire hone. It works fine and dandy when I want to reprofile an edge, but it's horrible to touch up an edge. There are no slots labeled 30 degrees, but it can be achieved by moving the blade in the jig or cutting the jig shorter. If I have a blade that is 1" from the spine to the edge and I place 1/8" of the blade in the jig, the angle will be different at the 25 degree mark compared to if I had 3/4" of the blade in the jig using the 25 degree mark. This doesn't even account for the slop in the guide holes or that you have to manually adjust the guides.

It is surprising that no one makes a similar system that simply uses an adjustable height hole. That way you could always match a previously established bevel.

 

[kniferbro]

This thread is a pretty good example of what goes on in internet forums way too often in my opinion. People get into this kind of "arguing for sport" over definitions instead of talking about the OPs original point. If you like to argue for sport, and some people do, that's fine but nothing constructive ever comes from it.

I have DMT sharpening system it does not have a hole for thirty degrees for a 30 chisel grind on one side. I have had Lanski systems and one that was called a Loray Sharpening system, as I recall all of them seemed to stop at about 25 degrees (depending, of course, on how wide your blade is). I think it would be easy to make an extension with more holes to extend one side of the knife clamp to accommodate wider angles for chisel grinds.

So true... Welp time to add Dave to the old ignore list.

 

[DAVE_M]

It is surprising that no one makes a similar system that simply uses an adjustable height hole. That way you could always match a previously established bevel.

The hole location doesn't matter. The amount of slop in the guide rods and placement of the rods on the hone would negate any precision hole locations.

Know what Lansky tells the customer to do before installing the guide rods on the hone? They tell you to bend the rods by hand, until they are flush with the hone... lol

Take a look at this picture and you will see how many variables there are that will cause the hones to be off angle.

 

[RX-79G]

The hole location doesn't matter. The amount of slop in the guide rods and placement of the rods on the hone would negate any precision hole locations.

Know what Lansky tells the customer to do before installing the guide rods on the hone? They tell you to bend the rods by hand, until they are flush with the hone... lol

Take a look at this picture and you will see how many variables there are that will cause the hones to be off angle.

If the last thing you adjusted was the hole height, it wouldn't matter how you set up the rest of it. You wouldn't be setting a pre-determined angle - you would be raising the rod where it goes through the hole until the hone sat flat on the edge bevel. If you wanted to set a particular angle you'd have to use a protractor to see the actual hone/rod angle to the blade spine.

 

[hhmoore]

Guys - you each understand what the other is saying...
RX-79G, maybe you're caught up in things, out maybe you're just being obtuse; but the answer to your question isn't shrouded in mystery: if a chisel ground blade is only sharpened on one side, and it is sharpened to a 30 degree angle, where is the confusion? It doesn't really matter whether one wants to use the term inclusive, does it? 30 degrees is 30 degrees, right?

 

[RX-79G]

No. You either truly don't understand what we are saying or you just want to debate.

If I told you my knife edge is 30 degrees. How do you know what kind of grind I have? You don't.
If I told you my knife edge is 30 degrees inclusive, one could deduce that I have some sort of grind with a sharpened edge on both sides.

Actually, I'm trying to figure out how you want me to say it.

If I say my knife edge is 30 DPS, the reader doesn't know if that is 60 inclusive or 30 on a chisel.
If I say my knife is 30 degrees, the reader won't know if that is total or on a side.
And I can't say a knife is 60 degrees inclusive if one of those degrees is 0.

So tell me what term is appropriate for all types of edges. No debate, just tell me how to make a general statement about edges without running into this problem.